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2020 NHL Draft Thread: Devils: #7 Holtz!


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51 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Jesus fvcking christ. Typical NJDevs here. I fvcking said BASED ON WHAT I'VE SEEN AND READ that i would of PREFERRED Rossi. And i'm pointing out why, i never said Holtz would be a bust. I said i felt more confident in Rossi having a higher ceiling and being a complete player, regardless of the position they play. Other than Rossi's size he doesn't have much to adapt or get better at in order to be sure to have an impact in the NHL.

Now AS USUAL when someone is not following the general narrative and dare challenge it a bit, you guys get defensive, nitpick and take things people say apart, out of context and assume sh!t that goes directly against what people were saying or trying to say. Are you even fvcking trying to understand? 

Now so far, it's been said that i'm acting like Rossi was the obvious choice, that the team overlooked him, that Holtz was a bad pick, that i'm comparing Holtz directly to Boucher as a player, that Holtz is just a ridiculous shot etc etc All stuff i didn't fvcking say. I read every single fvcking scouting reports i could find on the internet, i looked at all the highlights i could find on ALL these fvcking prospects. I had a list and Rossi was 2nd and Holtz last. What do you want me to say or do?!? Change my mind just cause he was drafted by us? GTFO that i'm only pointing out ONE report from a rando, i've posted about this before the draft. I even said i'd have to read more about Holtz and Perfetti cause i was not high on them at all and chances were that we'd draft one of them so i wanted to be hyped.

Plus i said i could be totally wrong about this. Seriously what is it that you want to hear? Is it possible to say something slightly negative towards Hughes, Holtz, Subban or whoever without having a mob jumping on you assuming and putting words in your mouth?

 

 

Where’s that old emoji of the one dodging the tomatoes when you need it. Yikes.

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F@ck Rossi. he isn`t Devil. HipHIPhoraaaay Holtz. He scores goal today. Great add for our centers. Like Mercer too. We have great chance to have two balanced different lines without headache where and how we will use our young players. (btw Holtz was my #5-6 player on pick#7 list. But now he is our guy. That was logic reasonable decision. BPA play in toronto and edmonton. Good luck for them)

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3 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

First, the narrative is that Holtz plays a position we need, as a great shot and can score from everywhere, while Rossi is a center who doesn't fill a need. That's the narrative.

I personally feel we passed on the BPA/safer pick to fill a need. Some scouting reports raised many red flags with Holtz. 

I brought up Boucher cause he was too said to be the upcoming sniper we needed and would fill a need. But there was also questions about other aspects of his game and it turned out true. I'm not straight up comparing Boucher to Holtz, i'm comparing situations.

I mean after over a decade of picks not panning out and can I just be bummed that i feel we passed on the BPA for a player with red flags? NJ Devils draft picks PTSD is a thing man

I get your main point , which I think is actually a fair point. Rossi is incredibly dynamic, I was keen on him going into the draft and if I had been drafting I probably would have taken him. 

But by virtue of the point you are trying to make to explain your concerns about Holtz you are making quite a direct comparison. 

You are using Boucher as an example of a one dimensional player who had quite a few knocks (size, skating ability, passing, vision, physicality)  was taken because he had a good shot to fill a need over other players who were more dynamic (I am guessing your situational comparison is Gaudreau?).

What I am saying to you is that labeling Holtz as one dimensional and that inferring his shooting ability was the only reason he was taken is unfair and off the mark.

I don't see where you are getting these "red flags" from on Holtz. From everything I have read/seen its that people unfairly focus heavily on his shot, when actually he has a number of other assets to his game which are top end as well. 

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13 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

I get your main point , which I think is actually a fair point. Rossi is incredibly dynamic, I was keen on him going into the draft and if I had been drafting I probably would have taken him. 

But by virtue of the point you are trying to make to explain your concerns about Holtz you are making quite a direct comparison. 

You are using Boucher as an example of a one dimensional player who had quite a few knocks (size, skating ability, passing, vision, physicality)  was taken because he had a good shot to fill a need over other players who were more dynamic (I am guessing your situational comparison is Gaudreau?).

What I am saying to you is that labeling Holtz as one dimensional and that inferring his shooting ability was the only reason he was taken is unfair and off the mark.

I don't see where you are getting these "red flags" from on Holtz. From everything I have read/seen its that people unfairly focus heavily on his shot, when actually he has a number of other assets to his game which are top end as well. 

Think of everything i said as a comparison between Rossi and Holtz mostly. The only knock on Rossi is his size. He scores, create plays, he's dynamic, good defensively, plays the PP, plays the PK, he does everything. The only worry is, will it all translate to the NHL? But he's safe cause if he's not producing at least he can do other things well. The only thing i see that Holtz has on Rossi is size and shot. But it certainly doesn't seem to affect Rossi as he was dominating the league he's playing in.

Holtz has multiple aspect of his game he needs to work on, it's not that i'm saying his shooting ability is all he has. But again, compared to Rossi, he has more to work on to be a complete and effective player who can play in the NHL. That's just a fact, so we have to project a lot more for him than Rossi. It's not just "will his current skills translate?" it's also "will he learn?".

That's a problematic pattern around the league. You see a lot of scorers not sticking around cause their game doesnt translate or that they are bad defensively. If you're good overall, at least you can be a serviable bottom 6 player. Well like Zacha.

I could bring up countless examples of players who didn't stick around cause their pros didn't outweighs the cons. I used Boucher as one example, i could have used Josefson, who was the opposite. It goes both ways. I see a bigger potential of that happening with Holtz at the moment cause what he has aspect of his game he has to adjust that are harder to learn. 

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48 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Think of everything i said as a comparison between Rossi and Holtz mostly. The only knock on Rossi is his size. He scores, create plays, he's dynamic, good defensively, plays the PP, plays the PK, he does everything. The only worry is, will it all translate to the NHL? But he's safe cause if he's not producing at least he can do other things well. The only thing i see that Holtz has on Rossi is size and shot. But it certainly doesn't seem to affect Rossi as he was dominating the league he's playing in.

 

Man, no, it`s not. You watch highlight,  I'll offer you watch games.

Fitz, Rossi, Rossi`s coach, Rossi`s mama, my mama and even your mama know and say that rossi place on the ice is the center. He isn`t fast, he isnt good when he should run from board to the net. He dominates in child league. But he didnt play against men. What he did he played with men. Against childrens. Garreffa(half season) and Keating(full season) were his regular partners. They were 20 yo both. They could play in AHL and they both have 90 points season before. Ottawa was best structure team in OHL and they play with two best defensive defensmen in the league(Bahl and Okhotyuk btw). Rossi has not good start speed. And he hasnt great shot. He is good in positioning but his shot isnt top 20 in this draft. I know you like context.
His game is all about play in center. He may be excellent center. But we have two with this potential. hughes was awfull on the wing. Hischier deserves to be a center. Hischier and Hughes deserve to have good linemates, but before this draft only Foote has potential to be top-6. Boqvist may be too, but he didn`t look like NHL player. 

Fitz made good reasonable pick. Because Holtz played against men, and now he is playing against men right now. And he will have two centers with different abilities to find his place on the wing in NHL. Holtz is agressive winger he just need to coach. He is good skater. Not excellent, but good, he has good start speed and great shot. He had problems with positioning in shooting but he was 17 yo who play against men. He has great challange to grow and great place to grow. He play bigger role this year. 
And Holtz has much bigger room to grow phisically. 
Your comparison with a Boucher is absolutely out of place. Compare him with Laine and Puljujarvi. This is much closer, more logical, and more appropriate.

BPA`s play in Toronto. 

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38 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Think of everything i said as a comparison between Rossi and Holtz mostly. The only knock on Rossi is his size. He scores, create plays, he's dynamic, good defensively, plays the PP, plays the PK, he does everything. The only worry is, will it all translate to the NHL? But he's safe cause if he's not producing at least he can do other things well. The only thing i see that Holtz has on Rossi is size and shot. But it certainly doesn't seem to affect Rossi as he was dominating the league he's playing in.

Holtz has multiple aspect of his game he needs to work on, it's not that i'm saying his shooting ability is all he has. But again, compared to Rossi, he has more to work on to be a complete and effective player who can play in the NHL. That's just a fact, so we have to project a lot more for him than Rossi. It's not just "will his current skills translate?" it's also "will he learn?".

That's a problematic pattern around the league. You see a lot of scorers not sticking around cause their game doesnt translate or that they are bad defensively. If you're good overall, at least you can be a serviable bottom 6 player. Well like Zacha.

I could bring up countless examples of players who didn't stick around cause their pros didn't outweighs the cons. I used Boucher as one example, i could have used Josefson, who was the opposite. It goes both ways. I see a bigger potential of that happening with Holtz at the moment cause what he has aspect of his game he has to adjust that are harder to learn. 

So Holtz’s strengths over Rossi shouldn’t be held against Rossi but Rossi’s strengths over Holtz should count against Holtz. Doesn’t make sense.  But regardless, you’re vastly underestimating Holtz not being well-rounded. Plus, keep in mind you pick based on ceiling, not necessarily who is currently better at the present.

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1 hour ago, Guadana said:

Man, no, it`s not. You watch highlight,  I'll offer you watch games.

Fitz, Rossi, Rossi`s coach, Rossi`s mama, my mama and even your mama know and say that rossi place on the ice is the center. He isn`t fast, he isnt good when he should run from board to the net. He dominates in child league. But he didnt play against men. What he did he played with men. Against childrens. Garreffa(half season) and Keating(full season) were his regular partners. They were 20 yo both. They could play in AHL and they both have 90 points season before. Ottawa was best structure team in OHL and they play with two best defensive defensmen in the league(Bahl and Okhotyuk btw). Rossi has not good start speed. And he hasnt great shot. He is good in positioning but his shot isnt top 20 in this draft. I know you like context.
His game is all about play in center. He may be excellent center. But we have two with this potential. hughes was awfull on the wing. Hischier deserves to be a center. Hischier and Hughes deserve to have good linemates, but before this draft only Foote has potential to be top-6. Boqvist may be too, but he didn`t look like NHL player. 

Fitz made good reasonable pick. Because Holtz played against men, and now he is playing against men right now. And he will have two centers with different abilities to find his place on the wing in NHL. Holtz is agressive winger he just need to coach. He is good skater. Not excellent, but good, he has good start speed and great shot. He had problems with positioning in shooting but he was 17 yo who play against men. He has great challange to grow and great place to grow. He play bigger role this year. 
And Holtz has much bigger room to grow phisically. 
Your comparison with a Boucher is absolutely out of place. Compare him with Laine and Puljujarvi. This is much closer, more logical, and more appropriate.

BPA`s play in Toronto. 

Hey for the last time. I just said Rossi was my personal preference. THAT'S IT. Worst comes to worst, I was wrong about my preference? I didn't say i was pissed off or that Fitz should get fired for drafting Holtz. I simply said i originally PREFERRED Rossi personally based on what i've seen. And explained why. We can all argue til we're blue in the face. Who cares. We have Holtz now, let's cheer for him.

At least i'm not one of the multiple posters here who wanted Rossi or were saying that Rossi would NEVER make it to 7 but now that we didn't get him, the guy we got is obviously better lol 

Also the whole playing against men... i can agree with that... but then its funny cause the same exact argument wasn't holding much water for Kakko last year

I'm VERY MUCH "Well we got Holtz, i can understand the logic there totally, simply not my first choice, now hopefully he does develop into a solid player for us and if he doesn't well it made sense" let's leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, Guadana said:

Man, no, it`s not. You watch highlight,  I'll offer you watch games.

Fitz, Rossi, Rossi`s coach, Rossi`s mama, my mama and even your mama know and say that rossi place on the ice is the center. He isn`t fast, he isnt good when he should run from board to the net. He dominates in child league. But he didnt play against men. What he did he played with men. Against childrens. Garreffa(half season) and Keating(full season) were his regular partners. They were 20 yo both. They could play in AHL and they both have 90 points season before. Ottawa was best structure team in OHL and they play with two best defensive defensmen in the league(Bahl and Okhotyuk btw). Rossi has not good start speed. And he hasnt great shot. He is good in positioning but his shot isnt top 20 in this draft. I know you like context.
His game is all about play in center. He may be excellent center. But we have two with this potential. hughes was awfull on the wing. Hischier deserves to be a center. Hischier and Hughes deserve to have good linemates, but before this draft only Foote has potential to be top-6. Boqvist may be too, but he didn`t look like NHL player. 

Fitz made good reasonable pick. Because Holtz played against men, and now he is playing against men right now. And he will have two centers with different abilities to find his place on the wing in NHL. Holtz is agressive winger he just need to coach. He is good skater. Not excellent, but good, he has good start speed and great shot. He had problems with positioning in shooting but he was 17 yo who play against men. He has great challange to grow and great place to grow. He play bigger role this year. 
And Holtz has much bigger room to grow phisically. 
Your comparison with a Boucher is absolutely out of place. Compare him with Laine and Puljujarvi. This is much closer, more logical, and more appropriate.

BPA`s play in Toronto. 

You know where I stand on Rossi, but I appreciate and respect your opinion on the matter. You have watched these guys more than most of us  

You left out Bratt btw. He’s obviously top 6. 

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I like the way you rejected all comparisons and arguments and chose just one.

Because Hughes wasnt physically ready overager, didnt play with overagers against kids. And Kakko was the kid with man body. 
In today situation Holtz is the Kid with kid`s body who play against men.

Arguments are needed for discussion.

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1 hour ago, devlman said:

So Holtz’s strengths over Rossi shouldn’t be held against Rossi but Rossi’s strengths over Holtz should count against Holtz. Doesn’t make sense.  But regardless, you’re vastly underestimating Holtz not being well-rounded. Plus, keep in mind you pick based on ceiling, not necessarily who is currently better at the present.

That’s another fair point. Rossi is probably the 2nd most NHL ready after Laf, but he’s also already 19 years old. 

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10 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Hey for the last time. I just said Rossi was my personal preference. THAT'S IT. Worst comes to worst, I was wrong about my preference? I didn't say i was pissed off or that Fitz should get fired for drafting Holtz. I simply said i originally PREFERRED Rossi personally based on what i've seen. And explained why. We can all argue til we're blue in the face. Who cares. We have Holtz now, let's cheer for him.

At least i'm not one of the multiple posters here who wanted Rossi or were saying that Rossi would NEVER make it to 7 but now that we didn't get him, the guy we got is obviously better lol 

Also the whole playing against men... i can agree with that... but then its funny cause the same exact argument wasn't holding much water for Kakko last year

I'm VERY MUCH "Well we got Holtz, i can understand the logic there totally, simply not my first choice, now hopefully he does develop into a solid player for us and if he doesn't well it made sense" let's leave it at that.

Who the hell is saying that? Don’t make things up. 

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10 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

You know where I stand on Rossi, but I appreciate and respect your opinion on the matter. You have watched these guys more than most of us  

You left out Bratt btw. He’s obviously top 6. 

Thanks. I do not know how to put it better, I really like our discussions that we had this off-season. It was a huge part of the entertainment.
I think Rossi is a great hockey player. If he improves his shot, he can become the new Crosby. It's just that we already have "Kane and Toews". Now we need Hossa, Sharp, Keith, and Seabrook. etc

I love Bratt, but I think he's a super power in the third line. So far, he hasn't played a full season in three years. He is not physically enough yet for the NHL. But he looks good in short shifts. And i think he will be very good in 12-15 min per game. But I'm ready for changes. 

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32 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

You left out Bratt btw. He’s obviously top 6. 

 

25 minutes ago, Guadana said:

I love Bratt, but I think he's a super power in the third line. 

Yeah, I have a hard time calling a guy “obviously top 6” when he can’t make it through a season. Top 6 potential if he could stay in the lineup and not hit the wall year after year? Definitely. 

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1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

 

Yeah, I have a hard time calling a guy “obviously top 6” when he can’t make it through a season. Top 6 potential if he could stay in the lineup and not hit the wall year after year? Definitely. 

Uh...what? He played his best hockey at the END of the season this year. Him and Gusev were by far our best players right before the shutdown. 

And he really hasn’t been that injury prone. Getting your jaw broken by a puck doesn’t really count. 

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9 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Uh...what? He played his best hockey at the END of the season this year. Him and Gusev were by far our best players right before the shutdown. 

And he really hasn’t been that injury prone. Getting your jaw broken by a puck doesn’t really count. 

He played 60 games. You can say it was the END of the season, but still, he played 3/4 of a season worth of games. 

I’m not sure I’m ready to say a guy who has twice run out of gas and the third season was shortened is “obviously top 6”. But like I said, he has potential.

Or, did you mean obviously top 6 on THIS team? That I would agree with, not that it’s saying much. 

And no, the broken jaw doesn’t mean he is injury prone. Accident prone, perhaps. Bad fvcking luck especially when it’s right before we played a game in his home country. 

 

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7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

He played 60 games. You can say it was the END of the season, but still, he played 3/4 of a season worth of games. 

I’m not sure I’m ready to say a guy who has twice run out of gas and the third season was shortened is “obviously top 6”. But like I said, he has potential.

Or, did you mean obviously top 6 on THIS team? That I would agree with, not that it’s saying much. 

And no, the broken jaw doesn’t mean he is injury prone. Accident prone, perhaps. Bad fvcking luck especially when it’s right before we played a game in his home country. 

 

He certainly didn’t show any signs of running out of gas this season. Quite the opposite in fact. Which was encouraging. 

And ofc I’m talking about this team, why would I be talking about any other? 

Anyway, I’m not going to go back and forth on this. To me Bratt should be automatically  be penciled into the top 6. It’s not about “potential” at this point. He’s already shown enough to be comfortable with him there. He was great with Hall and Nico his rookie year on the top line, and he was even better with Gusev this season. 

100 points in 185 GP is not bad at all considering how bad the team has been 2 out of his 3 years. 

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2 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

He certainly didn’t show any signs of running out of gas this season. Quite the opposite in fact. Which was encouraging. 

And ofc I’m talking about this team, why would I be talking about any other? 

Anyway, I’m not going to go back and forth on this. To me Bratt should be automatically  be penciled into the top 6. It’s not about “potential” at this point. He’s already shown enough to be comfortable with him there. He was great with Hall and Nico his rookie year on the top line, and he was even better with Gusev this season. 

100 points in 185 GP is not bad at all considering how bad the team has been 2 out of his 3 years. 

Sure, on this team he is among the 6 best forwards, I can roll with that. 

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