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2020 NHL Draft Thread: Devils: #7 Holtz!


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Lafreniere reminds me a bit of John Tavares. Lafreniere has more bite and physicality to his game, but the offensive tools are a dead ringer to Tavares for me. Byfield reminds of Eric Staal in hi

thanks for asking! i’m 100% now, and my wife never tested positive.

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50 minutes ago, devlman said:

Well of course nothing is ever certain. But he’s close to it. He’s 99% going to be the face of the franchise. We have to plan for that outcome. And for the sake of discussions on the team future, it’s a very reasonable and probably assumption to make of him.

That's exactly the structure i'm talking about.

Guy 1:  "I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. He sure has the skills but he need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 100% be the face of our franchise"

Then Jack comes out and gets 21pts in 61 games. Way below expectations. Historically bad for a first overall pick. And in some area actually confirming some of the worries that were highlighted.

Guy 1: "Well... I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. Absolutely not saying he's a bust or anything. He sure has the skills and will likely be amazing but there's concerns so he still need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 99% be the face of our franchise"

 

lol i mean. At the moment... one of those guys is pushing something under the carpet focusing on "projections" and ignoring reality while the other one is simply saying he's concerned based on actual facts. Yet it's Guy 1 who's almost called crazy for his opinion.

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:41 PM, mfitz804 said:

I mean I can believe that @SterioDesignis a unicorn, but that doesn’t mean he is. 

Ok, he’s totally a fvcking unicorn. 

Damn i wish. Unicorns have some sweet perks.

I mean... i can't say and will likely never be able to say "Ha! that girl has my face tattooed on her !"

But a unicorn can certainly say that.

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

That's exactly the structure i'm talking about.

Guy 1:  "I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. He sure has the skills but he need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 100% be the face of our franchise"

Then Jack comes out and gets 21pts in 61 games. Way below expectations. Historically bad for a first overall pick. And in some area actually confirming some of the worries that were highlighted.

Guy 1: "Well... I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. Absolutely not saying he's a bust or anything. He sure has the skills and will likely be amazing but there's concerns so he still need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 99% be the face of our franchise"

 

lol i mean. At the moment... one of those guys is pushing something under the carpet focusing on "projections" and ignoring reality while the other one is simply saying he's concerned based on actual facts. Yet it's Guy 1 who's almost called crazy for his opinion.

This is a whole lot of changing the argument to fit your narrative. The bottom line is most people here recognize that heavily weighing point totals over skill level and development for an 18 year old rookie in the nhl playing on a horrendous team with bad coaching and tons of turnover is dumb.

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46 minutes ago, devlman said:

This is a whole lot of changing the argument to fit your narrative. The bottom line is most people here recognize that heavily weighing point totals over skill level and development for an 18 year old rookie in the nhl playing on a horrendous team with bad coaching and tons of turnover is dumb.

Are you serious? lol Who's twisting a narrative here?

You're straight up ignoring possible red flags cause they don't fit your narrative. Do you honestly think no other top picks didn't have to deal with what he did? That we're historically the WORST team a recent first overall landed on in the last 20 years and that it's the only reason his points total was low?

Sure he missed the net, got robbed, hit posts and showed some sexy skills we all know he has. But what? you think guys like Kane... didnt do that? at the same time as they were putting up points and developing? You think Kane scored on every single opportunity he got or something?

That's how we've historically judged top forwards. Jack hughes is a point producer, he's creating players. He's not a shut down center or playing physical, making points is his thing. Points are heavily why he was drafted first overall. That's the metric that was used to compare him to all his peers, former first overall, guys from the same league, etc etc. But now that points doesn't fit the narrative... then it's dumb to look at that.

And again, i'm not saying he's a bust and i do believe he'll develop. But you're the one in total denial that something could be wrong and trying to fit your narrative

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, SterioDesign said:I'm really curious. Is this something you actually do?

But you're right. But this can go both ways.. You can have MacKinnon who took about 4-5 years before he became a true #1 guy.. and did he ever. But the team had terrible years while he was struggling to get it together. But then there's other center like Galchenyuk in MTL.. he was FINALLY the big center they've been waiting for since Koivu left. But we all know how that turned out. So you never know until you know...

I mean... MacKinnon and Drouin were both projected to be fvcking insane. But Drouin still hasnt really pan out either. You just never know

Of course I do. How do you think we produce so much natural gas that we are already built the fifth pipeline to Europe?
 

if he will not what we want from him devs could trade him. Like Colorado trade Duchene. That was good. Or O’Reilly. That was not. Did Ryan shows he is potentially one of the best two way players? Yes. Did Duchene show he is unstable b!tch regardless partners? I think so. I was very happy when we didn’t sign him. 
 

Hughes has enough talent, everything devils need is find good and right partners for him and rate his work ethic.

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7 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

That's exactly the structure i'm talking about.

Guy 1:  "I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. He sure has the skills but he need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 100% be the face of our franchise"

Then Jack comes out and gets 21pts in 61 games. Way below expectations. Historically bad for a first overall pick. And in some area actually confirming some of the worries that were highlighted.

Guy 1: "Well... I WANT to believe that he's going to be a franchise player for us. Absolutely not saying he's a bust or anything. He sure has the skills and will likely be amazing but there's concerns so he still need to show us his game will translate before i believe it."

Guy 2: "I KNOW Jack will 99% be the face of our franchise"

 

lol i mean. At the moment... one of those guys is pushing something under the carpet focusing on "projections" and ignoring reality while the other one is simply saying he's concerned based on actual facts. Yet it's Guy 1 who's almost called crazy for his opinion.

I like how you change opposite opinions and ignore opposite arguments and facts time after time in any conversation. Profanation(Desecration? I'm not sure if the term is translated correctly) is a bad polemical reception, but I don’t think you’re using it deliberately. 

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7 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

Are you serious? lol Who's twisting a narrative here?

You're straight up ignoring possible red flags cause they don't fit your narrative. Do you honestly think no other top picks didn't have to deal with what he did? That we're historically the WORST team a recent first overall landed on in the last 20 years and that it's the only reason his points total was low?

Sure he missed the net, got robbed, hit posts and showed some sexy skills we all know he has. But what? you think guys like Kane... didnt do that? at the same time as they were putting up points and developing? You think Kane scored on every single opportunity he got or something?

That's how we've historically judged top forwards. Jack hughes is a point producer, he's creating players. He's not a shut down center or playing physical, making points is his thing. Points are heavily why he was drafted first overall. That's the metric that was used to compare him to all his peers, former first overall, guys from the same league, etc etc. But now that points doesn't fit the narrative... then it's dumb to look at that.

And again, i'm not saying he's a bust and i do believe he'll develop. But you're the one in total denial that something could be wrong and trying to fit your narrative

 

 

 

Patrick Kane didn’t play with the corpse of Wayne Simmonds and Miles Wood. Hard to put up points playing with guys like that. Even if Jack had scored like 20 goals himself his totals would still have been extremely low primarily playing with those scrubs.

Now you can point out that he also didn’t produce when he was on a line with Nico and Palms, which would be fair, but he also wasn’t playing his natural position, and it should have been clear it wasn’t working right away. That experiment lasted way longer than it should have. 

Jack put up insane totals in the US program because he had guys that could finish (like Caufield). It might be another disappointing season (at least points wise) for him while we’re waiting on the guys like Holtz and Foote to make it to the NHL. Right now there’s still only one true goal scorer on this team, and I’d guess we’ll continue to see Nico be Palms Center on the first line. 

I’d personally love to see them bring in Mike Hoffman. That way both Jack and Nico can have their own goal scoring winger. Other than the crazy girlfriend I’m surprised he’s still available. 

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1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

 

Jack put up insane totals in the US program because he had guys that could finish (like Caufield). It might be another disappointing season (at least points wise) for him while we’re waiting on the guys like Holtz and Foote to make it to the NHL. Right now there’s still only one true goal scorer on this team, and I’d guess we’ll continue to see Nico be Palms Center on the first line. 

 

And we  don't have any guarantees, Foote or Mercer or Holtz will be produtcive in their first season.  Jack needs in good scoring winger right here right now. And in winger who can clean up. Well, or we will continue to whine - why is it that a young and physically weak playmaker can't produce a lot of points at our will.

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9 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

Are you serious? lol Who's twisting a narrative here?

You're straight up ignoring possible red flags cause they don't fit your narrative. Do you honestly think no other top picks didn't have to deal with what he did? That we're historically the WORST team a recent first overall landed on in the last 20 years and that it's the only reason his points total was low?

Sure he missed the net, got robbed, hit posts and showed some sexy skills we all know he has. But what? you think guys like Kane... didnt do that? at the same time as they were putting up points and developing? You think Kane scored on every single opportunity he got or something?

That's how we've historically judged top forwards. Jack hughes is a point producer, he's creating players. He's not a shut down center or playing physical, making points is his thing. Points are heavily why he was drafted first overall. That's the metric that was used to compare him to all his peers, former first overall, guys from the same league, etc etc. But now that points doesn't fit the narrative... then it's dumb to look at that.

And again, i'm not saying he's a bust and i do believe he'll develop. But you're the one in total denial that something could be wrong and trying to fit your narrative

 

 

 

Not trying to be condescending but I’m suggesting this legitimately as advice (In full good faith similar to your suggestion of capfriendly to mfitz): a philosophy/debate/logical reasoning class would do you a world of good with your arguments. You tend to take the extreme of one argument and in your head change the stance of what is being said by the other side. Because none of what I said is reflected in your post.

You want to compare him to other first round picks? Ok start with the ones who came straight from usndp and were 18 and played with the caliber of miles wood and Wayne simmonds and didn’t get to finish out a season. Waiting..

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14 minutes ago, devlman said:

Not trying to be condescending but I’m suggesting this legitimately as advice (In full good faith similar to your suggestion of capfriendly to mfitz): a philosophy/debate/logical reasoning class would do you a world of good with your arguments. You tend to take the extreme of one argument and in your head change the stance of what is being said by the other side. Because none of what I said is reflected in your post.

You want to compare him to other first round picks? Ok start with the ones who came straight from usndp and were 18 and played with the caliber of miles wood and Wayne simmonds and didn’t get to finish out a season. Waiting..

Did you or did you not say you were 99% sure he WAS going to be a franchise player for us.

And again you're the one taking an extreme stance. Saying that he WILL 99% BE a franchise player. Its basically saying that it's almost impossible that this season could be an indication of anything or red flags.

I'm not even saying this season IS a red flag but i can admit that it could be. You can't even go there. I even agree with the whole excuses and find it's justified, we had a terrible team. But i'd be in denial if i'd convince myself that it's completely IMPOSSIBLE that he could simply not develop into a franchise player based on what we saw.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I'm not even saying this season IS a red flag but i can admit that it could be. You can't even go there. I even agree with the whole excuses and find it's justified, we had a terrible team. But i'd be in denial if i'd convince myself that it's completely IMPOSSIBLE that he could simply not develop into a franchise player based on what we saw.

 

 

Did I ever say it was completely impossible something could not happen? Did I ever say we know for complete certainty? It’s all in your head man. By saying 99%, I said it was very highly likely he would be a franchise player for us. In your head you’ve twisted it to mean there is NO chance. I mean, it’s a silly exercise in semantics we are having.

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5 hours ago, devlman said:

Did I ever say it was completely impossible something could not happen? Did I ever say we know for complete certainty? It’s all in your head man. By saying 99%, I said it was very highly likely he would be a franchise player for us. In your head you’ve twisted it to mean there is NO chance. I mean, it’s a silly exercise in semantics we are having.

Well you basically said there was a 1% chance he's not a franchise player.

What am i twisting here? lol You literally gave a %.

 

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