Hall or Hynes, who is gone first?

[mfitz804]

You almost need a bidding war, that way someone feels pressure to get him sooner rather than later. If you are a contending team, you look like you are going to march straight to the playoffs by the trade deadline, maybe you don't necessarily say "we should give more assets to get him now rather than less assets to get him later", unless there are other teams in the mix. 

[nessus]

2 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Any team in contention would want a Taylor Hall. He only has 2 goals, but he is a PPG player regardless already and has shown the knee injury hasn't slowed him down. Would you rather have an asset like Hall on your team for 20 games or 50 games? His base value is as high as it is going to get today because the team that gets him today is guaranteed to get him for the most games uninjured.

The longer the Devils wait, the less time he has to impact his new team, the better chance he will be injured as a Devil(which would be catastrophic for us), and the less value he has for Ray because team's know what the zero hour is for Shero. It is the trade deadline. If you wait until the zero hour teams know you have to take what you are going to get or watch him walk at the end of the year. There is no guarantee of a bidding war, so you play a dangerous game by waiting. You risk getting less return, getting stuck with a player that is going to walk July 1st, or worst of all he gets hurt and his value is near 0.

I don't agree. Sure, every team could use a Taylor Hall - that's not what I'm arguing against. I am also not arguing that Hall has anything to prove to other teams by staying with the Devils longer. I agree that any significant injury would be catastrophic - you're absolutely right about trading him sooner being a much safer move. What I am arguing is that 20 games into the season, teams do not know where they will be at the end of the year. Right now, teams are not going to be trading off significant assets if they don't even know how competitive they will be when it gets to be January or February. That's why I think his value goes up as the season progresses. If you have the opinion that any contending team wants Hall, it isn't wrong to expect there to be a bidding war.

Separate from all that, I think Shero will wait to trade him in part because he's holding out hope that Hall will sign an extension, and in part because of the message that it may send that he has given up on the season. 

Whether any of this is worth the risk of injury by waiting until closer to the deadline is a decision Shero needs to consider. I happen to think he's going to take the "risk" and wait.

[NJDevils1214]

1 hour ago, nessus said:

I don't agree. Sure, every team could use a Taylor Hall - that's not what I'm arguing against. I am also not arguing that Hall has anything to prove to other teams by staying with the Devils longer. I agree that any significant injury would be catastrophic - you're absolutely right about trading him sooner being a much safer move. What I am arguing is that 20 games into the season, teams do not know where they will be at the end of the year. Right now, teams are not going to be trading off significant assets if they don't even know how competitive they will be when it gets to be January or February. That's why I think his value goes up as the season progresses. If you have the opinion that any contending team wants Hall, it isn't wrong to expect there to be a bidding war.

Separate from all that, I think Shero will wait to trade him in part because he's holding out hope that Hall will sign an extension, and in part because of the message that it may send that he has given up on the season. 

Whether any of this is worth the risk of injury by waiting until closer to the deadline is a decision Shero needs to consider. I happen to think he's going to take the "risk" and wait.

Fair enough. I don't agree with that approach at all. There are only a handful of teams that would be on the fence. Most teams that would want Taylor Hall either know they're contenders or know they'll at least be bubble teams and need him asap. 

As far as the chances Ray is holding out that Hall will stay--it's 0%. He's not staying. He wants to win now. This team isn't set to win anything other than maybe another draft lottery. 

Trade Hall, the sooner the better. 

[Daniel]

Per my post in the Babcock thread, there have been some bluecheck rumblings that Babcock saw this coming and had sent out feelers to other teams over the past couple of days.  So there’s a small chance that Babcock’s availability is what has taken Ray so long to fire Hynes.

 So if Babcock is going to be our new coach sooner rather than later, I see if he can turn around the team’s fortunes with Hall.  In the meantime, I only ask for a ridiculous overpay: Caufield from Montreal, Byram from Colorado, or Gaudreau from Calgary.  We can always get the B prospect and first round pick package closer to the trade deadline.  

[HellOnICE]

2 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Fair enough. I don't agree with that approach at all. There are only a handful of teams that would be on the fence. Most teams that would want Taylor Hall either know they're contenders or know they'll at least be bubble teams and need him asap. 

As far as the chances Ray is holding out that Hall will stay--it's 0%. He's not staying. He wants to win now. This team isn't set to win anything other than maybe another draft lottery. 

Trade Hall, the sooner the better. 

This doesn't mean anything. Which team that's "win now" is going to afford likely a 7-8yr/11+ M contract? 

[Gunslinger27]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Per my post in the Babcock thread, there have been some bluecheck rumblings that Babcock saw this coming and had sent out feelers to other teams over the past couple of days.  So there’s a small chance that Babcock’s availability is what has taken Ray so long to fire Hynes.

 So if Babcock is going to be our new coach sooner rather than later, I see if he can turn around the team’s fortunes with Hall.  In the meantime, I only ask for a ridiculous overpay: Caufield from Montreal, Byram from Colorado, or Gaudreau from Calgary.  We can always get the B prospect and first round pick package closer to the trade deadline.  

Ray get it done, Dump Hall as fast you can damn it. lol Get Gaudreau 

[EdgeControl]

A few more games like last night and hynes will be my guess.. hall is towards the deadline... I says hynes, but our troubles are not all coaching,  our roster is suspect...

[mfitz804]

3 minutes ago, Gunslinger27 said:

Ray get it done, Dump Hall as fast you can damn it. lol Get Gaudreau 

I assume it’ll take Hall +, but if Johnny might like re-signing in his home state, I’m pretty sure I would consider that. 

[Gunslinger27]

14 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I assume it’ll take Hall +, but if Johnny might like re-signing in his home state, I’m pretty sure I would consider that. 

Curious isn't Hallsy from Calgary, I think it works well, both players going home. lol No fvcking brainer Rejean......... Do it, then fire Hynes lol

Edited November 21, 2019 by Gunslinger27

[mfitz804]

19 minutes ago, Gunslinger27 said:

Curious isn't Hallsy from Calgary, I think it works well, both players going home. lol No fvcking brainer Rejean......... Do it, then fire Hynes lol

Between this and Babcock being available, there couldn’t be any larger writing on the wall. 

[Gunslinger27]

1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

Between this and Babcock being available, there couldn’t be any larger writing on the wall. 

I think Toronto may regret firing Babcock, But as for Johnny Hockey this could seriously happen, with all the bs going on on Calgary. If Im Shero Im fvcking calling them asap.

[mfitz804]

17 minutes ago, Gunslinger27 said:

I think Toronto may regret firing Babcock, But as for Johnny Hockey this could seriously happen, with all the bs going on on Calgary. If Im Shero Im fvcking calling them asap.

Yep, it’s a pretty glaring solution for both teams, two guys going “home” which guys seem to love, etc. 

Only issue is whether Nico gets to keep his number. 

[titans04]

And Calgary would make that deal why? They have JG under a reasonable deal for two more years.  To bring in a guy that's never won much of anything looking for a shiny new mega deal for a sh!t ton of years. Hard pass if I'm Cal. 

Other than that sign me up yesterday.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by titans04

[mfitz804]

3 minutes ago, MB3 said:

For what it’s worth, Johnny Ham and Cheese would be coming “home” but he grew up a diehard Flyers fan. So, a little different there. 

Yes I did point that out the other day. But Newark is a sh!t ton closer to South Jersey than fvcking Calgary. 

2 minutes ago, titans04 said:

And Calgary would make that deal why? They have JG under a reasonable deal for two more years.  To bring in a guy that's never won much of anything looking for a shiny new mega deal for a sh!t ton of years. Hard pass if I'm Cal. 

Other than that sign me up yesterday.

 

How about us both using sh!t ton in a sentence in back to back posts!!

[Gunslinger27]

9 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Yep, it’s a pretty glaring solution for both teams, two guys going “home” which guys seem to love, etc. 

Only issue is whether Nico gets to keep his number. 

Yep Johnny is a 609'er, But I think playing with Nico and Hughes might persuade him, to come play for the Devs. Also the number 13 is out maybe 94 85 etc etc ;lol

Edited November 21, 2019 by Gunslinger27

[titans04]

2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Yes I did point that out the other day. But Newark is a sh!t ton closer to South Jersey than fvcking Calgary. 

How about us both using sh!t ton in a sentence in back to back posts!!

sh!tton = the new "structure"

[NJDfan1711]

14 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Fair enough. I don't agree with that approach at all. There are only a handful of teams that would be on the fence. Most teams that would want Taylor Hall either know they're contenders or know they'll at least be bubble teams and need him asap. 

As far as the chances Ray is holding out that Hall will stay--it's 0%. He's not staying. He wants to win now. This team isn't set to win anything other than maybe another draft lottery. 

Trade Hall, the sooner the better. 

I agree with both of you actually.  I agree with your point that Hall has high value now, and that most teams who may or will be contenders come playoff time probably already know that, but I also agree with his point in that the longer he remains available, the higher his price tag goes.  The closer we get to deadline day, the more the pressure increases for teams to make a deal before the clock runs out.   

When you go to an auction, an item that is sold is never sold for its highest price right after the bidding opens - it's sold highest once the auctioneer is done presenting the item and all bids have been placed.

[HellOnICE]

16 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I agree with both of you actually.  I agree with your point that Hall has high value now, and that most teams who may or will be contenders come playoff time probably already know that, but I also agree with his point in that the longer he remains available, the higher his price tag goes.  The closer we get to deadline day, the more the pressure increases for teams to make a deal before the clock runs out.   

When you go to an auction, an item that is sold is never sold for its highest price right after the bidding opens - it's sold highest once the auctioneer is done presenting the item and all bids have been placed.

Again though - what team is "close to win now" that can afford 7/8 years at 11M plus? Plenty of teams on a rental, sure - but where is Hall going to go for this kind of contract that'll be "so much closer" to a Cup - who have the space for a long term contract like this.

Edit Add: Maybe Buffalo, Carolina, or Vegas? But are those teams willing to make Hall their highest paid player outside of their current salary structure. Are those teams going to pay Taylor, who has had some injuries and less productivity than Jack Eichel, Mark Stone, or Sebastian Aho?

This is supposing Hall is going for a 11M+ long term deal, I guess it's possible he agrees to take less than 10 to play in Buffalo...or is it? Is Buffalo that much further along than we are? 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by HellOnICE

[Gunslinger27]

Also think Vats is 1 hit away from being on IR again also, might as well, get some more draft picks......... There are few others, lol

[NJDfan1711]

4 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

Again though - what team is "close to win now" that can afford 7/8 years at 11M plus? Plenty of teams on a rental, sure - but where is Hall going to go for this kind of contract that'll be "so much closer" to a Cup - who have the space for a long term contract like this.

 

 

So much closer than who...us?  Just at quick glance, both the Isles and Avs seem to have a lot of cap space (even more than us - and we have a lot), and most people would probably consider them to be in more win-now mode and closer to a Cup than us.  Other teams with a little room could be the Pens or Preds - I would imagine to bring in a player like Hall, with a contingency that he signs long-term, they'd probably find a way to make additional room if needed in order to get under the cap.

[HellOnICE]

7 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

So much closer than who...us?  Just at quick glance, both the Isles and Avs seem to have a lot of cap space (even more than us - and we have a lot), and most people would probably consider them to be in more win-now mode and closer to a Cup than us.  Other teams with a little room could be the Pens or Preds - I would imagine to bring in a player like Hall, with a contingency that he signs long-term, they'd probably find a way to make additional room if needed in order to get under the cap.

The Avs...they can't afford him long term without putting him above major players on their line up. Look at the numbers...let's suppose they give Hall a deal, let's assume, 10+ M - He becomes their highest paid player. In the next 3 seasons, these players are up for deals:

1. Cale Makar (likely up for a 12+ M contract if he develops like this up from 900K)
2. Mackinnon (6.3? Already he's worth more than Hall) 
3. Zadarov (if he's still there, more than 5/6M) 
4. Grubauer (if he's their starter, at least 5-6M)
5. Landeskog (8M+) 

The Isles sure, maybe - but it's tight and does Lou seem like the guy to go out and make an outsider their highest paid player by almost 30%? Barzal is also above for a 8-9M increase after this season. 

The Preds highest paid player is Roman Josi, given how tight David Poile runs his structure, again - do we think Hall takes a pay cut OR does Poile blow out his structure for Hall? Filip Forsberg is also coming up. Yes- Turris is an issue, but he's signed long term and probably no takers coming up. Also, is Nashville that much closer? Even this year - 9-8-3 - what's their window like? Their goaltending is iffy these days as well. 

Pens - maybe - but again, how much closer is Pittsburgh to a Cup than we are? Malkin/Crosby still great, but not kids anymore. Letang isn't either, and has his own injury battles. Is Rutherford going to have Hall come in and be their first player to make more than Malkin, who's been their ceiling?

Edited November 21, 2019 by HellOnICE

[NJDfan1711]

1 minute ago, HellOnICE said:

The Avs...they can't afford him long term without putting him above major players on their line up. Look at the numbers...let's suppose they give Hall a deal, let's assume, 10+ M - He becomes their highest paid player. In the next 3 seasons, these players are up for deals:

1. Cale Makar (likely up for a 12+ M contract if he develops like this up from 900K)
2. Mackinnon (6.3? Already he's worth more than Hall) 
3. Zadarov (if he's still there, more than 5/6M) 
4. Grubauer (if he's their starter, at least 5-6M)
5. Landeskog (8M+) 

The Isles sure, maybe - but it's tight and does Lou seem like the guy to go out and make an outsider their highest paid player by almost 30%? Barzal is also above for a 8-9M increase after this season. 

If it gets you a Cup, I'm not so sure bringing in an 'outsider' and having him be your highest paid player is really an issue.  Plus, didn't we do the same thing with Hall? I know we didn't sign him to a new contract, but he's still the highest paid player on the team prior to what we just took on with PK this past off-season.

In regards to the list of players you mentioned that will be due for raises, that might pose a challenge, but how much is the cap going to go up in each of those 3 seasons?  Probably at least a little, and it's unlikely that all of those guys remains with the team.   Also, not sure you give Makar a 12M contract after 21 NHL games...it's 3 years away from having to think about that - a lot can happen.

[HellOnICE]

1 minute ago, NJDfan1711 said:

If it gets you a Cup, I'm not so sure bringing in an 'outsider' and having him be your highest paid player is really an issue.  Plus, didn't we do the same thing with Hall? I know we didn't sign him to a new contract, but he's still the highest paid player on the team prior to what we just took on with PK this past off-season.

In regards to the list of players you mentioned that will be due for raises, that might pose a challenge, but how much is the cap going to go up in each of those 3 seasons?  Probably at least a little, and it's unlikely that all of those guys remains with the team.   Also, not sure you give Makar a 12M contract after 21 NHL games...it's 3 years away from having to think about that - a lot can happen.

We're in a different spot. Most "closer to a Cup" teams have their core players either signed already long term or coming up fast. The Devils are still developing or looking for Core players, stars to be cornerstones either short-term, like a PK while we try and develop younger talent - like Hughes or Nico. 

But if you're the GM of Colorado - it's not just Makar (and you have to plan, just like we are with Jack, that these young stars who will be around for 8-10 great years will be making big money)...and they have other guys to worry about. The cap number fluctuates about 2M/Year - are you risking losing Mackinnon, Landeskog and having a sh!t time with Makar - for a 28 year old Taylor Hall?

[NJDfan1711]

4 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

We're in a different spot. Most "closer to a Cup" teams have their core players either signed already long term or coming up fast. The Devils are still developing or looking for Core players, stars to be cornerstones either short-term, like a PK while we try and develop younger talent - like Hughes or Nico. 

But if you're the GM of Colorado - it's not just Makar (and you have to plan, just like we are with Jack, that these young stars who will be around for 8-10 great years will be making big money)...and they have other guys to worry about. The cap number fluctuates about 2M/Year - are you risking losing Mackinnon, Landeskog and having a sh!t time with Makar - for a 28 year old Taylor Hall?

Fair points, and I agree with most of them.  Not saying it would be the easiest thing to do, but depending on the GM and how much they're able to handle/tolerate difficult situations, I think they might be OK with being tightly pressed for cap space year after year, assuming they're always in contention and getting playoff berth after playoff berth.  It makes them look good that they're able to assembly a talented roster and be competitive, and if it doesn't work out, eventually owners give them the axe, and you'd think they'd have a hard time finding work after putting their teams in a tight spot, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.  Just look at our former GM - granted Lou got us 3 Cups and was a great GM here for a long time, but eventually he made some decisions towards the end of his tenure here that were less than ideal, and it resulted in us not having much cap room, and worse, having even less talent, yet he was seemingly able to get not one, but TWO jobs right after, and he's now enjoying the #2 overall spot in the standings.  While I'm sure he will always love the Devils and our organization, I'd have to bet he doesn't give a sh!t about any of the times he may have been up against the cap and struggling to bring in high-dollar players.

Yzerman is another great example - dude was bringing in people left and right, dolling out crazy high contract after crazy high contract and everyone was wondering how they were going to keep it up - well, he's no longer with them (yes, I realize he left on his own accord, but he still put them in a tough spot) - and he got a job right away, not having to worry about the mess he made with his former organization.  It's almost like some of these guys get a free pass, which is sort of amazing.  So I mean, why not go for the gusto?  Ideally it brings you a Cup or two, and if it does, guys will likely want to stick around your organization for cheaper and take hometown discounts, and if it doesn't, well like I said you might get a pink slip, but judging by recent history you may get another job pretty quickly. 🤷‍♂️

[HellOnICE]

1 minute ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Fair points, and I agree with most of them.  Not saying it would be the easiest thing to do, but depending on the GM and how much they're able to handle/tolerate difficult situations, I think they might be OK with being tightly pressed for cap space year after year, assuming they're always in contention and getting playoff berth after playoff berth.  It makes them look good that they're able to assembly a talented roster and be competitive, and if it doesn't work out, eventually owners give them the axe, and you'd think they'd have a hard time finding work after putting their teams in a tight spot, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.  Just look at our former GM - granted Lou got us 3 Cups and was a great GM here for a long time, but eventually he made some decisions towards the end of his tenure here that were less than ideal, and it resulted in us not having much cap room, and worse, having even less talent, yet he was seemingly able to get not one, but TWO jobs right after, and he's now enjoying the #2 overall spot in the standings.  While I'm sure he will always love the Devils and our organization, I'd have to bet he doesn't give a sh!t about any of the times he may have been up against the cap and struggling to bring in high-dollar players.

Yzerman is another great example - dude was bringing in people left and right, dolling out crazy high contract after crazy high contract and everyone was wondering how they were going to keep it up - well, he's no longer with them (yes, I realize he left on his own accord, but he still put them in a tough spot) - and he got a job right away, not having to worry about the mess he made with his former organization.  It's almost like some of these guys get a free pass, which is sort of amazing.  So I mean, why not go for the gusto?  Ideally it brings you a Cup or two, and if it does, guys will likely want to stick around your organization for cheaper and take hometown discounts, and if it doesn't, well like I said you might get a pink slip, but judging by recent history you may get another job pretty quickly. 🤷‍♂️

Yzerman did it, but it's one thing to create room for guys who are already on the team like a Kucherov or Stamkos. The only person was McD he brought in, and he wasn't going to be making 9M. I can't see Hall coming in to Tampa, and making more than Stamkos? Do we? And yes, Tampa's much better than we are, but the standings today? oooooof. 

I think there's few teams who want to pay Taylor the kind of money his agent wants him to be making. And maybe I'm wrong, and he's not looking for a Tavares like deal, but something in the 9M range, which makes him more affordable. Also, and I've said this previously, aside from Marian Hossa and Zdeno Chara (oddly enough both Slovak and 10 years or more years ago), when was the last-time a mega free agent changed teams, became their highest-ish paid player, and won a Cup?