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titans04

Subban

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Clearly I think his play has sucked and his cap hit is almost comical if it wasn't so sad so far to date. However, my opinion is only based on the eye test. 

For those smarter than me and who know their way around analytics what do his advanced stats say so far? How about his stats from the last 2 seasons?

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I'm looking for something positive here to hold onto other than it's all on Hynes. Something, anything more than he once had 9 shots in a game leaving him with 36 in the other 24 games.

Edited by titans04

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14 minutes ago, titans04 said:

Clearly I think his play has sucked and his cap hit is almost comical if it wasn't so sad so far to date. However, my opinion is only based on the eye test. 

For those smarter than me and who know their way around analytics what do his advanced stats say so far? How about his stats from the last 2 seasons?

First off, do not ask for the "analytics."  They exist for people who don't know what they're talking about but who use them to glob on to teams.

Otherwise, I'll stick with what I said earlier.  It's possible that the all the sudden has turned into a below average player, although not likely at his age.  The whole team outside of Blake Coleman looks terrible this year, so we just don't know what we have until Hynes is gone and so long as he is not replaced with one of his assistants.

Edited by Daniel
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7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

First off, do not ask for the "analytics."  They exist for people who don't know what they're talking about but who use them to glob on to teams.

Otherwise, I'll stick with what I said earlier.  It's possible that the all the sudden has turned into a below average player, although not likely at his age.  The whole team outside of Blake Coleman looks terrible this year, so we just don't know what we have until Hynes is gone and so long as he is not replaced with one of his assistants.

Thanks but I asked for the analytics to see a different view of his performance. So if it's ok with you the request stands.

Thanks SD, somewhat encouraging I guess although quite a few a relatively small percentage above average areas which isn't great for a top 3 $$$

Edited by titans04

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I still remember when people jumped me for saying he didn't have much of an impact early in the season lol...his play has only gotten worse.  I'm hoping it's just the poisonous coaching situation and we'll somehow see the PK of old once a change is made but I'm not holding my breath cause he really hasn't shown me jack all season.

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He’s just playing like a guy without a clear sense of purpose. The roles aren’t being articulated beyond (I imagine) “you’re my (fill in the blank) guy - now go out there and do that thing you do!”  

None of the guys are really meshing and no one is clear on stepping up and defining roles for everyone. No one is telling them what they need to do to have purpose, you know?   

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On 12/2/2019 at 10:44 PM, NJDevs4978 said:

I still remember when people jumped me for saying he didn't have much of an impact early in the season lol...his play has only gotten worse.  I'm hoping it's just the poisonous coaching situation and we'll somehow see the PK of old once a change is made but I'm not holding my breath cause he really hasn't shown me jack all season.

The coaches are basically the same. 

The rest of the season is going to get very ugly very quickly.  I am hoping that there has been or will be some conversation between Ray and Subban where Subban is told to keep doing the things in the community that people love him for, stay positive, but that after the season ends it's going to be time to get to work with whoever the new coach is, and I don't mean by doing more work out videos. 

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He’s a positive guy who is quite commendable with his altruism. He also is an easy study for all the media types. He’s funny, outspoken , self effacing etc etc. it makes for lots of fun things to do media wise. It brings the Devils into a light in the NHL that has been sorely needed for years. All the great years the Devils had, in one of the largest media centers in the world, and no one knew about them. Unfortunately the timing is way off. All of his efforts are not positive on the ice. For whatever reason. It’s really time for him to get serious about his play and performance on the ice or no one will take him or this current team seriously for a very long time. 

Personality, levity are all great but please, PLEASE get serious about your play!

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I don't think he's completely forgotten how to play hockey in the past two months, like it looks.

I think he's more or less on an island out there - his partner is trash no matter who he's paired with and he's probably had to adjust his game to compensate.

Problem is - he's getting paid to be "the man" and he's thus far failed.  

So, what do you do?  Trade him again?

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Maybe not piss-poor but for what we expected he's done absolutely nothing. Most of the time his play has been slow and uninspired and until last night it's seemed like he doesn't care

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I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that I don't think PK has been as bad as he's being made out to be.  Indeed his partner is usually not very good, combine that with high expectations and also a coaching staff that doesn't seem to have a plan, and it's not really all that surprising why he's being harped on.  With that said, I think he still does some things well - for starters, the guy has some pretty insane moves.  I've seen him make many moves out there that quite frankly I don't even see some of the most talented forwards make.  The guy routinely toe-drags and spins to create space for himself and basically leaves the opponent stuck in their tracks.  Sometimes he gets a little carried away and/or does it in dangerous situations and at risky times, but if he can figure out when to best take those chances, I think it has the potential to pay dividends.  I also think when he does that it's essentially him trying too hard - trying to make something happen and put the game on his shoulders because they've been playing so poorly and trailing in games.

The downside to his game so far has been that he's not really been a stalwart in his own zone, something we desperately need, but that's not necessarily what he's all about.  Perhaps he's been too much of a liability at times, but he's more of an offensively-talented D-man than he is a stay-at-home D-man, so that's not really his fault.  Another downside to his game so far has been his lack of contribution to the PP - the guy still seems to have a cannon, I think he just needs to use it more, and when he does, make sure he hits the net.  The PP as a whole has been atrocious though, so I don't really put all of this on him.  

And let's not forget the price tag on this guy is also what draws negative attention to him.  If he was making 4, 5, or even 6M a year then maybe he isn't criticized so much, but at 9M a year it definitely is magnified a bit more.

Overall, I think the guy still possesses speed and agility, and a powerful shot - and if we have a coaching staff that can pair him with the right people and utilize his talent, I think he can still be an impact player for us.  Also, it's unlikely that someone is interested in taking him off our hands for 9M, so I think it's in our best interest to stick with the guy and try to find a way to make him a positive on this team, rather than just looking for a way to get rid of him.  Oh, and I should also add, the guy genuinely seems like he's a positive influence in the locker room, and on the rink - he seems to be high-spirited and loves the game and to have fun, and you can never have enough of them.  If this team ever gets on a run in the right direction, I can honestly see him leading the charge and spreading the good vibes, which can be infectious to other players and throughout the locker room.  We need that.

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3 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

I don't think he's completely forgotten how to play hockey in the past two months, like it looks.

I think he's more or less on an island out there - his partner is trash no matter who he's paired with and he's probably had to adjust his game to compensate.

Problem is - he's getting paid to be "the man" and he's thus far failed.  

So, what do you do?  Trade him again?

Problem is he showed signs of decline last season...only 13 points over his final 34 GP last season.  18 points in his last 61 GP (none in his last 15)...hell, friggin' Minus Man Severson has 23 points over HIS last 61 GP.  Butcher has 25.  Vatanen has 21. 

Not that points are the end-all be-all of everything...but yeah, like you alluded to, only one guy is getting paid $9 million, and he was supposed to produce a hell of a lot more than he has.  He's been incredibly disappointing.  And it's to the point where you've probably gotta take on a crappy contract back to move him. 

All you can really do is cross your fingers when it comes to him. 

 

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He's here for two more years after this.  His cap hit won't matter during that time and if he continues to stink at least he's fodder for the expansion draft. 

And again, everyone on this team has stunk and will stink for the remainder of the year.  If you disguised the faces and changed the names and numbers on all the jerseys you would think that our players were at most average, and you certainly wouldn't believe that that guy who resembles Taylor Hall was an MVP two years ago.

We're tanking the rest of the season.  That much has to be painfully obvious to everyone.  Hopefully, hopefully Ray finally hires a real coach for the first time in his career and we'll know what we have.

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43 minutes ago, Daniel said:

He's here for two more years after this.  His cap hit won't matter during that time and if he continues to stink at least he's fodder for the expansion draft. 

And again, everyone on this team has stunk and will stink for the remainder of the year.  If you disguised the faces and changed the names and numbers on all the jerseys you would think that our players were at most average, and you certainly wouldn't believe that that guy who resembles Taylor Hall was an MVP two years ago.

We're tanking the rest of the season.  That much has to be painfully obvious to everyone.  Hopefully, hopefully Ray finally hires a real coach for the first time in his career and we'll know what we have.

I don't think we're tanking the season at all, otherwise why fire the coach?  Shero could've let him finish the year and then given him the boot after the season is over, allowing him to leave with a little more dignity.  Though it didn't happen as early as we all wanted, a firing in the early stages of the season would indicate to me that they're at least attempting to correct things before it gets too out of control and becomes insurmountable. We're 9-14-4 - not good at all, but far from flatlined.  

I know it's the exception to the rule, but literally the most recent team to win the Stanley Cup was in dead last AFTER the new year last season.  It can be done.

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8 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I don't think we're tanking the season at all, otherwise why fire the coach?  Shero could've let him finish the year and then given him the boot after the season is over, allowing him to leave with a little more dignity.  Though it didn't happen as early as we all wanted, a firing in the early stages of the season would indicate to me that they're at least attempting to correct things before it gets too out of control and becomes insurmountable. We're 9-14-4 - not good at all, but far from flatlined.  

I know it's the exception to the rule, but literally the most recent team to win the Stanley Cup was in dead last AFTER the new year last season.  It can be done.

Kinda sucks not having a Binnington equivalent that could help spur on any kind of surge.  I don't think the Devils are tanking either, but it's kind of hard to imagine a twosome of Blackwood (still hopeful with him but I don't think it's going to happen for him this year) and Domingue not being a problem for the rest of this season (even if the team somehow does start to play better).   

And obviously I'm VERY concerned about PK. 

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The Devils aren't tanking the rest of the season.  Jesus christ.  

Anyway, some metrics have Subban as atrocious and some have him as just fine.  I don't particularly care for points as a measure of anything - Subban's been unlucky by points, that much should be obvious.  He's also been unlucky by goals - the Devils are shooting 5.36% with him on the ice, 9.5% with him off the ice.  This has a little to do with him but not very much.

Subban's managed to keep R-R pairings afloat territorially, that's usually a pretty good sign.  I don't know why they're insisting on going R-R with Subban - he's not an offensive dynamo anymore.  If anything, his strength is now defense - they should be putting a lefty with him.  He's made some positioning mistakes, as have all the D.  I don't think he's washed up by any means, but he's obviously not the great defenseman he once was.

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 This team has a coaching problem. That is obvious and it is something that management is at the very least aware of to a degree. The troubling thing is that I am not sure after what was said in yesterday's press conference that Shero understands what is wrong with the coaching and philosophy this team has.

The issues in the defensive zone pointed out by Stevens underscore a larger issue of how this team plays in all zones of the ice. Hockey is a game of risk/reward ratios and certain areas and plays have a higher ratio of risk to reward than others. This team routinely passes pucks to the slot on breakouts. Any two-bit mighty mite coach would tell you that's a higher risk area to pass to on a breakout than virtually any other option. This team relies on drop passes and doubling back in high danger areas of the neutral zone which lead to turnovers and odd man rushes the other way. Players don't have a great idea of where each other are in the offensive zone because there seems to be little real structure to our play in that area which leads to turnovers as well which is sad because that is actually the zone we're the most structured and systematic in. Players pinching don't get replaced by others dropping and when turnovers happen against the backcheck is lackluster at best. That last part is probably on the players, but the rest is on coaching.

Blackwood is an excellent goalie, but he's young and the kind of situations he is in can really damage his confidence and psyche. We have a lot of good elements to this team but you can't succeed at this level without a proper system in which players know where each other are and are going to be. You can rely on skill and hard work without too much structure at lower levels but not at the NHL level.

This was posted in the wrong thread, but regarding Subban, no defenseman is going to look good in this situation. Sami Vatanen has looked just as lousy as Subban even with the announcers singing his praises between costly turnovers and mistakes.

Edited by NewarkDevil5

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I think the whole winning the Norris thing made people overvalue him way too much. He's not great now but he was never THAT good either as most people think.

And as much as people here know i don't like him, meaning that i'm biased, meaning that my perception of him is skewed.. hence irrelevant....

But beyond opinions... facts remains that the year he won the Norris was an half season. He was really not great defensively, didn't play on the PK that season at all, he was never put on the ice at the end of a game to protect a lead, was not playing against top competition, he was rarely put on defensive zone faceoffs, he was really sheltered. And that half season the East didnt play against the West... and if i remember correctly that division was pretty weak that year. All of that to say, you really shouldn't win "best overall dman of the league" in those conditions. Hell he was again nominated for the Norris a few years ago and anyone who knows hockey would tell you he wasnt even the best dman on his team. It has become more of a popularity contest than anything. 

He was an excellent offensive Dman, extremely dangerous on the PP and he could play really physical, that's no doubt. But for 9 million a year you better be more than just a one dimensional player. 

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3 hours ago, Triumph said:

The Devils aren't tanking the rest of the season.  Jesus christ.  

 

Right now the Devils are the second worst team in the league where it matters, so just stop with whatever fake numbers you want to throw in there to say they actually aren't a bad team.  From all indications, a Taylor Hall trade could happen very soon.  Sami Vatanen will likely be traded along with virtually everyone else on an expiring contract.  And their interim coach is a guy who has no head coaching experience who is pretty much attached at the hip to and a clone of the guy you just fired. 

Here on planet Earth we call an already very bad team that is trading away its best players for assets that will not immediately help the team and not meaningfully addressing a terrible coaching situation tanking, because that's what's happening. 

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13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Right now the Devils are the second worst team in the league where it matters, so just stop with whatever fake numbers you want to throw in there to say they actually aren't a bad team.  From all indications, a Taylor Hall trade could happen very soon.  Sami Vatanen will likely be traded along with virtually everyone else on an expiring contract.  And their interim coach is a guy who has no head coaching experience who is pretty much attached at the hip to and a clone of the guy you just fired. 

Here on planet Earth we call an already very bad team that is trading away its best players for assets that will not immediately help the team and not meaningfully addressing a terrible coaching situation tanking, because that's what's happening. 

Umm, I don't think so.

Tanking is when a team doesn't make an effort to win (or makes an effort to lose) too get a higher pick. 

If you are not playoff bound, trading off guys on expiring contracts for assets is just good business. What the fvck would be the point of keeping Hall and Vatanen to watch their contracts expire??

Also, when the whole world thinks your coach is a loser, and he's a proven loser, and you have to pay him anyway, you don't fire him if you're trying to tank. You let him keep losing. 

Honestly your poses are becoming insufferable. You don't know half as much as you think you do. 

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5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Umm, I don't think so.

Tanking is when a team doesn't make an effort to win (or makes an effort to lose) too get a higher pick. 

If you are not playoff bound, trading off guys on expiring contracts for assets is just good business. What the fvck would be the point of keeping Hall and Vatanen to watch their contracts expire??

Also, when the whole world thinks your coach is a loser, and he's a proven loser, and you have to pay him anyway, you don't fire him if you're trying to tank. You let him keep losing. 

Honestly your poses are becoming insufferable. You don't know half as much as you think you do. 

This is semantics.  The players you have will try no matter what if only for themselves and their own futures.  And no, we aren't sending Nico down to Bingo for some BS lengthy conditioning stint or something like that. 

But otherwise it's very simple.  If you already have a very bad team and the moves you are likely to make will only make the team worse in the immediate term, including a coaching change that isn't really a coaching change, that's tanking, or one way to do it anyway. 

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1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

Umm, I don't think so.

Tanking is when a team doesn't make an effort to win (or makes an effort to lose) too get a higher pick. 

If you are not playoff bound, trading off guys on expiring contracts for assets is just good business. What the fvck would be the point of keeping Hall and Vatanen to watch their contracts expire??

Also, when the whole world thinks your coach is a loser, and he's a proven loser, and you have to pay him anyway, you don't fire him if you're trying to tank. You let him keep losing. 

Honestly your poses are becoming insufferable. You don't know half as much as you think you do. 

Not only not playoffs bound. Taylor basically made it known that he's not re-signing here. The longer we keep him the longer we risk losing him for nothing if he get injured and the less we could potentially get in a trade say he keeps not producing at all.

There's no way trying to use common sense with Daniel at this point

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