Subban

[Daniel]

Just now, mfitz804 said:

No that’s not what you said. You said I was comparing him to Hazel, which I wasn’t. I was saying he’s an improvement over Schneider, which he is. 

If we were “tanking”, why wouldn’t he stick with the guy who hasn’t won since 2017? 

You can’t explain that, and it makes it clear you are talking out of your ass. 

 

Again, two questions: Are the Devils a very bad team right now?  Will every personnel Shero makes result in the Devils being a worse team this season?  Please answer them, yes or no.

I will say that if you want to play gotcha, I was wrong in saying that Shero will literally find the worst players he possibly can to fill the roster, if I said something like that.  But this is a bad team and going to get worse this season.

[Devil Dan 56]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Answer these two questions.  Are the Devils a very bad team right now?  And will every personnel move that Shero makes from now to the end of the season result in the Devils being a worse team right now?

Yes. And yes. But that still doesn't make it tanking. Its not intentionally making the team worse. It's unloading assets that will not be here next season and who clearly will not be helping you in the playoffs. Its irresponsible to NOT trade them at this point. 

[Neb00rs]

Not that you have any evidence to support the tanking claim anyway but keep in mind this is literally a team that played to win up until the end last year, knocking their chances of getting the #1 pick down a bit. Luckily they still won the lottery, but still, tanking doesn't seem to be the MO of this organization.

[SterioDesign]

8 minutes ago, Triumph said:

It's tanking when you just make up definitions of words to suit your argument and then get mad at everyone for not just accepting your new definition.

Teams out of the playoffs trade players to teams in the playoffs every year.  Hell, Ottawa didn't have a first round pick of their own last season so they had huge incentive at least from a PR standpoint to finish out of the cellar and yet they didn't manage to.

Well like you said... "making up definitions of word to suit your argument" is what he's been doing for months now. The whole Shero is not trying to build a winning team, Shero is tanking, Shero is okay with losing, is getting out of control here.

Not a single soul here want us to hold on to Hall if he's not re-signing and it's fair to say he's not at this point. Playoffs or not this time.

I'm obviously more rigid about that whole approach of trading a top UFA before their final season than most people here. But again, everyone understand why Hall has to be traded at this point. To see Daniel using this to prove that we're tanking and not just doing the right thing is somewhat amazing in its own disgusting way. Same thing with Vatanen. If he's not re-signing here, obviously we have to trade him.

[Daniel]

Just now, Devil Dan 56 said:

Yes. And yes. But that still doesn't make it tanking. Its not intentionally making the team worse. It's unloading assets that will not be here next season and who clearly will not be helping you in the playoffs. Its irresponsible to NOT trade them at this point. 

Again, if something I've ever said can be interpreted to mean that the Devils are going to find some phantom injury with Nico and make Rooney the first line center, then sorry.  But again, it is very obvious that the Devils are a bad team and there's going to be no efforts to make the team better, and in fact the moves will make the team worse, at the very least on average, as the season progresses.

And by the way.  I get it.  It's ok.  Frankly I'd rather Shero realize he screwed up rather than double down on a lost season. 

[mfitz804]

 

[Daniel]

40 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

 

[mfitz804]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

You really are dense. 

[Daniel]

41 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

You really are dense. 

[Neb00rs]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

There was a time I might have taken this in jest, but the sad thing is, you probably think that making this meme counts as proof that he actually said this.

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

There was a time I might have taken this in jest, but the sad thing is, you probably think that making this meme counts as proof that he actually said this.

Yeah, I think he actually said this.   Good lord.

Again.  Team is very bad, and going to get worse, at least for this season.   Not even in the bizarro world on multiple doses of LSD could this possibly be a controversial statement, but perhaps the fact that there are more than four Devils fans who don’t think this is the case is why Ray knows he has more job security than Doug Armstrong.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Daniel

[mfitz804]

45 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Yeah, I think he actually said this.   Good lord.

Again.  Team is very bad, and going to get worse, at least for this season.   Not even in the bizarro world on multiple doses of LSD could this possibly be a controversial statement, but perhaps the fact that there are more than four Devils fans who don’t think this is the case is why Ray knows he has more job security than Doug Armstrong.

That statement isn’t controversial. The problem is, you don’t understand what people are disagreeing with. 

[EdgeControl]

Back to subban

You take the good with the bad. 1v1 subban is as good as any Dman in the NHL.  He wins his board battles at a high %, he jumps on pucks fast and shakes pressure as well as anyone. He doesn't get burned by skilled skaters.

The bad is vision and hotdogging he is a terrible passer. And he s not the brightest on the ice 

Hes a good asset imo. Money and all

[mfitz804]

38 minutes ago, EdgeControl said:

Back to subban

You take the good with the bad. 1v1 subban is as good as any Dman in the NHL.  He wins his board battles at a high %, he jumps on pucks fast and shakes pressure as well as anyone. He doesn't get burned by skilled skaters.

The bad is vision and hotdogging he is a terrible passer. And he s not the brightest on the ice 

Hes a good asset imo. Money and all

Agree, because the money isn’t preventing us from doing anything. If it’s $5m or $9m, there are no cap implications. 

[NJDfan1711]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

Now that he's been replaced by the great Louis Domingue, where do you expect this team to end in the standings? 

Even if your argument is that Domingue is not the next Hasek, Schneider was clearly the worst goalie in the league the last two years, so keeping him in and splitting starts would give us the best chance to 'tank'.  So why make a move to send Schneider down if we're going to lose when he's in?  Sorry, your theory holds no water.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Even if your argument is that Domingue is not the next Hasek, Schneider was clearly the worst goalie in the league the last two years, so keeping him in and splitting starts would give us the best chance to 'tank'.  So why make a move to send Schneider down if we're going to lose when he's in?  Sorry, your theory holds no water.

Did Shero replace Hynes with a coach that might actually change things and who had some track record of winning? No, the interim is someone who was very much part of the problem. And again, every move Shero will make from now until the end of the year will not be about making the Devils better at least not for this season.

Its just biazarre that people are ignoring this stuff because Louis Domingue is here all the sudden.  But I’d you want an answer, Shero might have thought a couple of weeks ago that there could be lighting in a bottle.  Or he might have felt that Schneider could just get more playing time and recover his confidence for next year.   Whatever the rationale it doesn’t change what’s happening.

EDIT:  or how about this, the Miami Dolphins hired a coach they like, brought in a competent QB in Ryan Fitzpatrick instead of someone like Nathan Peterman, and have won 3 games so far.   But does anyone doubt that what they were doing this year was tanking?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Daniel

[mfitz804]

31 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Its just biazarre that people are ignoring this stuff because Louis Domingue is here all the sudden.  

Literally no one is doing that. 

[EdgeControl]

If subban recognizes that he needs help on his breakout, neutral zone and entry passes  it can be corrected by coaching and off puck support.  He needs to admit that he needs help.

[mfitz804]

32 minutes ago, Daniel said:

EDIT:  or how about this, the Miami Dolphins hired a coach they like, brought in a competent QB in Ryan Fitzpatrick instead of someone like Nathan Peterman, and have won 3 games so far.   But does anyone doubt that what they were doing this year was tanking?

This is the difference between adding a perennial all star defenseman, trading for the guy people called the best professional player not in the NHL, a tough veteran for the bottom 6 instead of a guy that belongs in the AHL, etc. 

Then more recently, moving out a loser coach and an oft-injured goalie with no wins in 2 calendar years. 

You can’t reconcile those moves with a desire to tank. 

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

This is the difference between adding a perennial all star defenseman, trading for the guy people called the best professional player not in the NHL, a tough veteran for the bottom 6 instead of a guy that belongs in the AHL, etc. 

Then more recently, moving out a loser coach and an oft-injured goalie with no wins in 2 calendar years. 

You can’t reconcile those moves with a desire to tank. 

I am not saying that Shero was tanking from the very beginning.  At some point, probably a couple of weeks ago, that became the strategy.  The new boss, old boss coaching change is clear evidence of that.

[Nicomo]

Just now, Daniel said:

I am not saying that Shero was tanking from the very beginning.  At some point, probably a couple of weeks ago, that became the strategy.  The new boss, old boss coaching change is clear evidence of that.

No it’s not. If losing was the intention why not just stay with Hynes the rest of the season? He was certainly good at it. 

[NJDfan1711]

35 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Did Shero replace Hynes with a coach that might actually change things and who had some track record of winning? No, the interim is someone who was very much part of the problem. And again, every move Shero will make from now until the end of the year will not be about making the Devils better at least not for this season.

Its just biazarre that people are ignoring this stuff because Louis Domingue is here all the sudden.  But I’d you want an answer, Shero might have thought a couple of weeks ago that there could be lighting in a bottle.  Or he might have felt that Schneider could just get more playing time and recover his confidence for next year.   Whatever the rationale it doesn’t change what’s happening.

EDIT:  or how about this, the Miami Dolphins hired a coach they like, brought in a competent QB in Ryan Fitzpatrick instead of someone like Nathan Peterman, and have won 3 games so far.   But does anyone doubt that what they were doing this year was tanking?

He didn't replace Hynes with someone with a track record of winning because he just fired the guy two days ago.  You don't know that he's not going to replace him with someone a week from now, or even in Jan/Feb.  I don't think it happens very quickly, but that's only because it's an important decision to make and shouldn't made in a rush.  Him doing his due diligence and taking his time to find the right candidate doesn't mean he's tanking.  If there was a better immediate candidate to run this team in the meantime and he ignored that person and just put Nas in charge, then sure, maybe you'd have a point - but the only other guys that he could have realistically used were the other guys already on the staff - Kowalsky, Grier, etc.  Neither of those guys would have been better suited to coach the team or give them a better chance at turning this season around.  This team needs a new coach, someone from the outside, to come in and change the philosophy here.  I think Shero knows that, and I believe it's his plan to find and bring in that guy.  But it takes time.  The first step was removing the guy who needed to go.

Regarding your Dolphins analogy - that's a perfect example which actually disproves your point.  During the first 3-4 games of the season everyone thought the Dolphins were tanking, and it looked like they were shoe-ins for the #1 overall pick.  Then they made some moves and changes, and now all of a sudden they've one a few games and will almost definitely not get the #1 overall pick.  It's looking like the Bengals, Giants, and perhaps even Redskins/Broncos/Cardinals/Lions could possibly pick ahead of them.  So yes, at the present time, I absolutely doubt that they're tanking, because they're not.  They could've done absolutely nothing and ended up with the #1 overall pick.  Instead, like the Devils, they've made some moves to try to better their team.  Will they still end up with a high pick?  Yeah, because they're still not very good - but you can't wave a magic wand and change that overnight.  You do the best you can and, if you've made the right moves, you gradually get better.

Very few organizations, mainly just the ones that have owners who have more money than God and no pride or self respect, will blatantly tank and be fine with losing games.

[Guadana]

If we will trade hall and he doesn’t want to sign with us - is tanking really bad. Guys are to softy and young, def corpse is empty,  devs don’t  claim for something. It’s a reality. Rebuilding isn’t in the end. Rebuilding is in the middle. 

[Devil Dan 56]

36 minutes ago, EdgeControl said:

If subban recognizes that he needs help on his breakout, neutral zone and entry passes  it can be corrected by coaching and off puck support.  He needs to admit that he needs help.

I agree with this. A lot of what I see with Subban is that he seems to be trying too hard to do everything. 

[Daniel]

24 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

He didn't replace Hynes with someone with a track record of winning because he just fired the guy two days ago.  You don't know that he's not going to replace him with someone a week from now, or even in Jan/Feb.  I don't think it happens very quickly, but that's only because it's an important decision to make and shouldn't made in a rush.  Him doing his due diligence and taking his time to find the right candidate doesn't mean he's tanking.  If there was a better immediate candidate to run this team in the meantime and he ignored that person and just put Nas in charge, then sure, maybe you'd have a point - but the only other guys that he could have realistically used were the other guys already on the staff - Kowalsky, Grier, etc.  Neither of those guys would have been better suited to coach the team or give them a better chance at turning this season around.  This team needs a new coach, someone from the outside, to come in and change the philosophy here.  I think Shero knows that, and I believe it's his plan to find and bring in that guy.  But it takes time.  The first step was removing the guy who needed to go.

Regarding your Dolphins analogy - that's a perfect example which actually disproves your point.  During the first 3-4 games of the season everyone thought the Dolphins were tanking, and it looked like they were shoe-ins for the #1 overall pick.  Then they made some moves and changes, and now all of a sudden they've one a few games and will almost definitely not get the #1 overall pick.  It's looking like the Bengals, Giants, and perhaps even Redskins/Broncos/Cardinals/Lions could possibly pick ahead of them.  So yes, at the present time, I absolutely doubt that they're tanking, because they're not.  They could've done absolutely nothing and ended up with the #1 overall pick.  Instead, like the Devils, they've made some moves to try to better their team.  Will they still end up with a high pick?  Yeah, because they're still not very good - but you can't wave a magic wand and change that overnight.  You do the best you can and, if you've made the right moves, you gradually get better.

Very few organizations, mainly just the ones that have owners who have more money than God and no pride or self respect, will blatantly tank and be fine with losing games.

A month ago the writing had to be on the wall that one way or another Hynes was not going to make it.  If the goal were to really salvage the season, they could have started looking for a real coach back then.  And who knows, maybe they actually were seriously considering hiring Babcock before all the accusations about his behavior came out, and they might end up hiring him in the offseason when some of the stuff has blown over.  But right now, there is absolutely zero indication that Shero intends to make the team better for this year, and just to be clear, I don't blame him for it.  It's just that he can't keep doing it forever, which unfortunately looks like where things are heading because he doesn't know how to actually build a team which is more than just collecting players and draft picks.

But I'll ask you, what exactly are you expecting Shero to do for the rest of the season so far as personnel moves are concerned and do you expect the Devils to have more than 72 points, which is generally where you start having good lottery odds?  And how is this at the very least a strategy where winning games is besides the point, even if it's not "intentional."

And, believe me, Chris Grier's plan as Dolphins GM was absolutely to tank the season.  One of the beat writers got access to a presentation he made to the owner that said this was the first part of his long term plan.  Every coaching candidate they interviewed understood this which is why Brian Flores, a guy who did not even have any experience even as a coordinator, demanded and got a six year contract.