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22 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Not only not playoffs bound. Taylor basically made it known that he's not re-signing here. The longer we keep him the longer we risk losing him for nothing if he get injured and the less we could potentially get in a trade say he keeps not producing at all.

There's no way trying to use common sense with Daniel at this point

No there isn’t. And he just proved my point.

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33 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Not only not playoffs bound. Taylor basically made it known that he's not re-signing here. The longer we keep him the longer we risk losing him for nothing if he get injured and the less we could potentially get in a trade say he keeps not producing at all.

There's no way trying to use common sense with Daniel at this point

Answer these two very simple questions.  Were the Devils a very bad team prior to Hynes being fired and Nassradine being named his replacement?  Do you expect the moves they will make (not just trading Hall) will make them a worse team this season?

If the answers to those two questions are yes -- and they absolutely should be -- then it necessarily follows that the Devils are tanking.  You can futz with the definition all you want, but the Devils are a bad team and are going to get worse and intentionally so.  That's it. 

I think you're the one that has trouble with common sense. 

Edited by Daniel

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29 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Answer these two very simple questions.  Were the Devils a very bad team prior to Hynes being fired and Nassradine being named his replacement?  Do you expect the moves they will make (not just trading Hall) will make them a worse team this season?

If the answers to those two questions are yes -- and they absolutely should be -- then it necessarily follows that the Devils are tanking.  You can futz with the definition all you want, but the Devils are a bad team and are going to get worse and intentionally so.  That's it. 

I think you're the one that has trouble with common sense. 

The devils at the moment are a "decent" team at best. We lost so many 1 goal games early because of terrible goaltending. And our guys who usually finish more than they do, not finish as much. Then i assume the system and the moral of the team is not the best and Hynes was not the person to rectify the situation. 

I know you're somehow blaming Hynes for Hall hitting only crossbars this season and all of that. But anyone know that's just non-sense. We're not as bad on paper as our record is showing, but all those problems got in the team's head im sure and we were only getting worst.

Trading Hall is the best move for the franchise, long term. There's a difference between what's best long term and short term. You seem to just focus on this season and only look at results.

You keep making those assumptions that trading hall = tanking cause you simply want to believe Shero is tanking cause you just hate him. Like someone pointed out, if Shero really wanted to tank he would have kept Hynes. Makes no sense. 

And please... i'm not the over the top hater here. Who started all those whinefest ? 

1314325305_ScreenShot2019-12-04at6_37_35PM.png.bf5bab6ad49deb10ed9812cf99308408.png

Edited by SterioDesign
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3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

49170858752_171ea0a0d3_b.jpg


 

Some people don’t understand this:

 

A42D4A9E-5488-46B4-8950-67AEA02D429F.png

 

This is not "bad luck" or bad goaltending.  It's a fundamentally bad team.  And sorry Sterio, the second worst goal differential in the league is not bad bounces here and there.

Now, teams surprise and from season to season can turn things around.  Look no further than the Avalanche.  So with a real coach, an improved Jack Hughes, Nico and a Lefrennier or Byfield and a good return for Taylor Hall, things could turn around quickly.  But that turn around will absolutely not happen this season, and by design.

 

Edited by Daniel

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4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Some people don’t understand this:

 

A42D4A9E-5488-46B4-8950-67AEA02D429F.png

 

This is not "bad luck" or bad goaltending.  It's a fundamentally bad team.  And sorry Sterio, the second worst goal differential in the league is not bad bounces here and there.

Now, teams surprise and from season to season can turn things around.  Look no further than the Avalanche.  So with a real coach, an improved Jack Hughes, Nico and a Lefrennier or Byfield and a good return for Taylor Hall, things could turn around quickly.  But that turn around will absolutely not happen this season, and by design.

 

Yup, Shero definitely helped the effort to lose by getting rid of a coach and a goalie who literally gave the team its best chance to lose. Smart moves, obvious tank. 

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5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Yup, Shero definitely helped the effort to lose by getting rid of a coach and a goalie who literally gave the team its best chance to lose. Smart moves, obvious tank. 

Yeah, Louise Domingue is the second coming of Dominick Hasek.

Again, answer the two questions.  Is the team very bad right now?  Will every move Shero makes from here on out make the Devils worse for the rest of the season and significantly so?

A response of "well they didn't literally make a one legged cripple the goalie" is not an answer. 

Edited by Daniel

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4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Yeah, Louise Domingue is the second coming of Dominick Hasek.

Again, answer the two questions.  Is the team very bad right now?  Will every move Shero makes from here on out make the Devils worse for the rest of the season and significantly so?

A response of "well they didn't literally make a one legged cripple the goalie" is not an answer. 

No he made a one-hipped cripple not the goalie. 

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7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

No he made a one-hipped cripple not the goalie. 

Now that he's been replaced by the great Louis Domingue, where do you expect this team to end in the standings? 

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8 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Yeah, Louise Domingue is the second coming of Dominick Hasek.

Again, answer the two questions.  Is the team very bad right now?  Will every move Shero makes from here on out make the Devils worse for the rest of the season and significantly so?

A response of "well they didn't literally make a one legged cripple the goalie" is not an answer. 

What the hell do you want him to do? Trade Tennyson for McDavid? then a 7th round pick from 2023 for Bobrovski?

When will you understand that Shero almost never had assets to make the team better. He's still rebuilding from the sh!t roster he was given in 2015. 

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Just now, SterioDesign said:

What the hell do you want him to do? Trade Tennyson for McDavid? then a 7th round pick from 2023 for Bobrovski?

When will you understand that Shero almost never had assets to make the team better. He's still rebuilding from the sh!t roster he was given in 2015. 

I made the correct decision to stop engaging you on your jihad against Lou for not trading Parise of all things, and I'm going to stop doing it now when it comes to giving Ray every excuse one can come up with. 

Suffice it to say, 2015 was four years ago now.  Since then, Ray has had a lot of draft picks, two number one overall picks, and a cap situation that is not what Edmonton or even Detroit was faced with.  As I'm typing this, the Devils are literally the second worst team in the league and are going to be trading their best player and eventually their best or perhaps second best defenseman.  That this is ok with you goes back to this bizarre hatred you have for Lou.

Again, the obvious point is that the Devils are tanking the rest of the season.  I don't know how anyone could possibly deny this, but obviously I should know better.  I'm not going down the rabbit hole that is your unreality, so have at it.

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3 hours ago, Daniel said:

Right now the Devils are the second worst team in the league where it matters, so just stop with whatever fake numbers you want to throw in there to say they actually aren't a bad team.  From all indications, a Taylor Hall trade could happen very soon.  Sami Vatanen will likely be traded along with virtually everyone else on an expiring contract.  And their interim coach is a guy who has no head coaching experience who is pretty much attached at the hip to and a clone of the guy you just fired. 

Here on planet Earth we call an already very bad team that is trading away its best players for assets that will not immediately help the team and not meaningfully addressing a terrible coaching situation tanking, because that's what's happening. 

You cannot help yourself from projecting what you believe on to literally everybody else.  The Devils are not tanking.  They didn't call up Schneider and demote Blackwood.  They haven't traded all of those guys away yet - they probably will, but it wouldn't shock me if they made offers to Simmonds and Vatanen to stay, depending on how the rest of the season goes.  They didn't hire Nasreddine in order to tank - they could've just kept Hynes for that, if they wanted to.  Nasreddine's mandate will not be to deliberately lose games - they could've just hired Horacek or Noel if they wanted to do that, two guys who won't be head coaches again and probably don't want to be.  Instructing the coach to lose -that is tanking.  You tank when your team is DELIBERATELY TRYING TO LOSE GAMES.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION.  You don't just get to change the definitions of things because you don't like how things are going.  When the Devils call up Schneider and he's posting an .870 in Binghamton, I'll agree, that's what they're doing.  Until then, they're going to try to win.

They've been a bad team for the first 25 games.  If they get some goaltending and the offense can pick up, they may be an okay team for the next 25.

Edited by Triumph
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36 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I made the correct decision to stop engaging you on your jihad against Lou for not trading Parise of all things, and I'm going to stop doing it now when it comes to giving Ray every excuse one can come up with. 

Suffice it to say, 2015 was four years ago now.  Since then, Ray has had a lot of draft picks, two number one overall picks, and a cap situation that is not what Edmonton or even Detroit was faced with.  As I'm typing this, the Devils are literally the second worst team in the league and are going to be trading their best player and eventually their best or perhaps second best defenseman.  That this is ok with you goes back to this bizarre hatred you have for Lou.

Again, the obvious point is that the Devils are tanking the rest of the season.  I don't know how anyone could possibly deny this, but obviously I should know better.  I'm not going down the rabbit hole that is your unreality, so have at it.

The whole trading thing has nothing to do with Lou or Ray, it's about the approach. I've been vocal and criticizing both of them for risking going in the season without trading them if they didn't re-sign already. 

The Devils would have been better off long-term trading Parise and they will be better off trading Hall cause clearly he does not plan on re-signing here. You don't want to lose a guy like this for nothing.

You want us to keep Hall even if he has no intention of staying? How is trading a guy who wants to leave = tanking?

We're not contenders this year, there's literally no point in holding on to a guy like hall when we can get assets for the future.

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53 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Now that he's been replaced by the great Louis Domingue, where do you expect this team to end in the standings? 

If you are saying that he is a downgrade from Schneider, can you honestly have no clue what you’re talking about.

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5 minutes ago, Triumph said:

You cannot help yourself from projecting what you believe on to literally everybody else.  The Devils are not tanking.  They didn't call up Schneider and demote Blackwood.  They haven't traded all of those guys away yet - they probably will, but it wouldn't shock me if they made offers to Simmonds and Vatanen to stay, depending on how the rest of the season goes.  They didn't hire Nasreddine in order to tank - they could've just kept Hynes for that, if they wanted to.  Nasreddine's mandate will not be to deliberately lose games.  That is tanking.  You tank when your team is DELIBERATELY TRYING TO LOSE GAMES.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION.  You don't just get to change the definitions of things because you don't like how things are going.  When the Devils call up Schneider and he's posting an .870 in Binghamton, I'll agree, that's what they're doing.  Until then, they're going to try to win.

They've been a bad team for the first 25 games.  If they get some goaltending and the offense can pick up, they may be an okay team for the next 25.

This has been an awful team since last season.  They have lost significantly more games than they have won, and have scored significantly fewer goals than they've allowed.  I'm not betting on Blackwood and Domingue all the sudden putting up a .920 save percentage and I'm not betting on Nassradine turning into Scotty Bowman all the sudden.  You add that to the fact that the team's best player is getting traded for things that will not immediately help the team and probably very soon, what you have is a team that is going to get worse than it already is.  It's basically a syllogism and moving the goal posts to say they didn't make me the goalie doesn't change that.

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1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

The whole trading thing has nothing to do with Lou or Ray, it's about the approach. I've been vocal and criticizing both of them for risking going in the season without trading them if they didn't re-sign already. 

The Devils would have been better off long-term trading Parise and they will be better off trading Hall cause clearly he does not plan on re-signing here. You don't want to lose a guy like this for nothing.

You want us to keep Hall even if he has no intention of staying? How is trading a guy who wants to leave = tanking?

We're not contenders this year, there's literally no point in holding on to a guy like hall when we can get assets for the future.

It's tanking when you just make up definitions of words to suit your argument and then get mad at everyone for not just accepting your new definition.

Teams out of the playoffs trade players to teams in the playoffs every year.  Hell, Ottawa didn't have a first round pick of their own last season so they had huge incentive at least from a PR standpoint to finish out of the cellar and yet they didn't manage to.

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Just now, mfitz804 said:

If you are saying that he is a downgrade from Schneider, can you honestly have no clue what you’re talking about.

I'm saying that however bad Schneider is (and remember how everyone said he was back after a strong World Championship) Louis Domingue is not good himself. 

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3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

This has been an awful team since last season.  They have lost significantly more games than they have won, and have scored significantly fewer goals than they've allowed.  I'm not betting on Blackwood and Domingue all the sudden putting up a .920 save percentage and I'm not betting on Nassradine turning into Scotty Bowman all the sudden.  You add that to the fact that the team's best player is getting traded for things that will not immediately help the team and probably very soon, what you have is a team that is going to get worse than it already is.  It's basically a syllogism and moving the goal posts to say they didn't make me the goalie doesn't change that.

I'm the one moving the goalposts?  Tanking has a very obvious definition.  It is deliberately making the team worse in order to lose games.  That's not why the Devils will be trading away their UFAs.  They will be trading them in order to recoup value so as to not lose them for nothing.  You know, like just about every team who is clearly out of the playoffs does, every year.  Tank moves are deliberately holding players out of the lineup who might help it, trading a good goalie for a worse one, and so on.  They are comparatively rare in hockey, but they have happened.

Edited by Triumph

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3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

This has been an awful team since last season.  They have lost significantly more games than they have won, and have scored significantly fewer goals than they've allowed.  I'm not betting on Blackwood and Domingue all the sudden putting up a .920 save percentage and I'm not betting on Nassradine turning into Scotty Bowman all the sudden.  You add that to the fact that the team's best player is getting traded for things that will not immediately help the team and probably very soon, what you have is a team that is going to get worse than it already is.  It's basically a syllogism and moving the goal posts to say they didn't make me the goalie doesn't change that.

This is an incredibly disingenuous way to try and substantiate an obviously stupid assertion that the Devils are tanking. Tanking means to lose as many games as possible, not to trade away assets because it's prudent to do so during a season in which you're not going to make the playoffs. I saw in the other thread you use the term, "my definition of tanking." You lose the argument right there, because you don't get to redefine the word in order to save yourself from having to concede that you have no argument.

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Just now, Triumph said:

I'm the one moving the goalposts?  Tanking has a very obvious definition.  It is deliberately making the team worse in order to lose games.  That's not why the Devils will be trading away their UFAs.  They will be trading them in order to recoup value so as to not lose them for nothing.  You know, like just about every team who is clearly out of the playoffs does, every year.

Answer these two questions.  Are the Devils a very bad team right now?  And will every personnel move that Shero makes from now to the end of the season result in the Devils being a worse team right now?

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1 minute ago, Neb00rs said:

This is an incredibly disingenuous way to try and substantiate an obviously stupid assertion that the Devils are tanking. Tanking means to lose as many games as possible, not to trade away assets because it's prudent to do so during a season in which you're not going to make the playoffs. I saw in the other thread you use the term, "my definition of tanking." You lose the argument right there, because you don't get to redefine the word in order to save yourself from having to concede that you have no argument.

Please answer the two questions, which are not very difficult.

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3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I'm saying that however bad Schneider is (and remember how everyone said he was back after a strong World Championship) Louis Domingue is not good himself. 

No that’s not what you said. You said I was comparing him to Hazel, which I wasn’t. I was saying he’s an improvement over Schneider, which he is. 

If we were “tanking”, why wouldn’t he stick with the guy who hasn’t won since 2017? 

You can’t explain that, and it makes it clear you are talking out of your ass. 

 

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Just now, Daniel said:

Answer these two questions.  Are the Devils a very bad team right now?  And will every personnel move that Shero makes from now to the end of the season result in the Devils being a worse team right now?

I don't think the Devils are a very bad team right now - I think they've gotten very poor results and have very bad goaltending, and if they don't improve, they will continue to be bad.  I think the offense should be better than it has been, that's the major place the team must improve.  

I certainly don't think every personnel move that Shero makes from now until the end of the season will result in the Devils being a worse team this season.  They might pick up someone on waivers who can help augment their depth.  They might call up someone from Binghamton who ends up outplaying a regular.  These are moves that Shero has made in past seasons when the Devils have been bad and he will make them again, if the opportunity presents itself.

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3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Please answer the two questions, which are not very difficult.

The answers are yes and I don't know. In any case, it doesn't change the fact that you indeed moved the goalposts/are trying to redefine the word tanking. I'm not going to speak to what's going to happen in the future - it seems like Ray wants to see what the team does under Nas. Doesn't matter though, the Devils are not tanking right now. Losing more than you're winning isn't tanking. It's being bad.

Edited by Neb00rs

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4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Answer these two questions.  Are the Devils a very bad team right now?  And will every personnel move that Shero makes from now to the end of the season result in the Devils being a worse team right now?

Your two questions are not probative because whether the moves make us worse doesn’t mean we are tanking. You’re taking intention out of the equation and intent is a necessary part of tanking. 

Trading off guys on expiring contracts for assets technically could make us worse, but that’s not WHY it’s done. 

I don’t know why I’m still trying to make you understand. 

Edited by mfitz804

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