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Daniel

Rebuild 2.0 Thread

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I think it's safe to say that even Ray knows his initial rebuild, which he all but declared completed this summer, has fallen apart.  For Nassaradine to eventually become permanent head coach would require some kind of miracle turn around which is made even more improbable by the trades Ray is almost certainly going to make, starting with Taylor Hall, and which will also likely include Vatanen, Simmonds and Wood.  So I suggest a general discussion of the future of the team be kept here. 

For my opening stab at this, I think it's very safe to say that the Devils will be picking no lower than 6th overall, but from the best I can tell the real prize will be to be in a position to select Lefrennier or Byfield.  Both seem to be immediate superstars. 

My hope is that Ray can get at least an A asset for Hall, from which I mean a truly top prospect or a very good established young player with term.  If there's one thing Ray is good at, it's trades, so hopefully we're not looking at the usual B prospect and a pick from 25-30 and a bunch of other crap. 

Then it's try to find a goalie and coach.  Unfortunately, when you compare us with the Islanders you can tell that good coaching brings good goaltending with it.  With Ray basically handing over the reins to a Hynes clone, it's impossible to know what the problem is.  Whatever the case, our next coach is not going to be another AHL guy, and I don't think ownership is going to allow Ray to bring in his old Pittsburgh buddies ever again. 

After that, I'd say the only untouchables on the team are Nico and Hughes.  Every thing else has to be on the table, but for real hockey players, no more magic beans.  And if we end up with Lefrennier or Byfield and if we get an ideal return for Hall, every single draft pick after this summer needs to be on the table.  If Ray needs more picks after the lottery luck and the number of picks he will have had by then, then we might as well go with some pimple faced 24 year old GM who j**ks off to draft guides who you don't have to pay anything. 

The part of the season where we're concerned with winning and losing games officially ended when Nassradine was named the interim coach.  What's done is done, so I think for all of our sanity it's probably best to try and find some optimism for the future, even if we've been led down this road a few too many times already.

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14 minutes ago, MB3 said:

That's a stupid title, and this is a stupid thread. When did Shero say we're "out of" our rebuild? Our top organizational defensive prospect isn't ready yet, our top two centers aren't old enough to buy a beer at the Prudential Center. There's a core here that can be a very solid hockey team without a tear-down "rebuild-part-two." 

The devils need Jack Hughes to become a star and Nico Hischier to become a quality cornerstone player. They need Ty Smith to work out, and they need to nail it with their draft this year. Most importantly, they need to find a solid return from Hall and a coach who can put it all together.

We're not entering another rebuild. We'll soon be coming out of one that wasn't quite over yet.

One of the best posts you've ever made.

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1 hour ago, MB3 said:

That's a stupid title, and this is a stupid thread. When did Shero say we're "out of" our rebuild? Our top organizational defensive prospect isn't ready yet, our top two centers aren't old enough to buy a beer at the Prudential Center. There's a core here that can be a very solid hockey team without a tear-down "rebuild-part-two." 

The devils need Jack Hughes to become a star and Nico Hischier to become a quality cornerstone player. They need Ty Smith to work out, and they need to nail it with their draft this year. Most importantly, they need to find a solid return from Hall and a coach who can put it all together.

We're not entering another rebuild. We'll soon be coming out of one that wasn't quite over yet.

Shero said very clearly "The Devils are back in business".   And he proceeded to trade a whole bunch of draft picks for Gusev and Subban.  So yes, he thought the rebuild was basically over and all that was needed was for Hughes to develop.   He didn't think we were winning the Cup this year, but he obviously thought this was a playoff team.  Hell after the World Championships people thought Schneider was back, now look where he is.

And when the season started and you heard "Taylor Hall has authorized his agent to negotiate a contract extension" from Bob MacKenzie to a Taylor Hall trade is imminent from pretty much everyone, you have absolutely gone from what the organization believed was being a competitive team for a sustained period of time to selling off pretty much all your players on expiring deals and perhaps more. 

This is a new rebuild that was not expected.  I don't know how on earth anyone can't see that. 

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If it's worth anything to anyone, I threw together a simple graph depicting the 5v5 progress of centers in the NHL over the first three years of their career as compared to Nico. I didn't just select the players in the graph randomly either. I tried to include the players who had the most points in the NHL between 2016-17 and 2018-19 (the last three years). Additionally, I tried to pick players who actually played center and I excluded players who didn't enter the NHL right away to account for Nico starting as an 18 year old. This took out players like Malkin who produced big numbers on arrival, but also players like Scheifele who took a little while to get going. I slightly broke my rules with three players. First, I don't remember how much center Seguin played in his first few years with the Bruins - I do remember that he found himself as a wing at times. I included him here because he is a center and his draft status was kind of like Nico's. Then there's Eichel who I had to skip a few centers on the list of top point producers between 16-17 and 18-19 to get to (he did miss time due to injury). But I included him because of the great expectations that surrounded his entrance into the league and because of what he has emerged into. Finally, I know Draisaitl has played a lot of wing in his career - and next to McDavid to boot, but he has spent a good chunk of time as a second line center during the course of his career as well.

The chart weights GP and TOI by portraying 5v5 P/60 rather than total 5v5 points over the players first three years in the league. I also picked a line graph rather than just using single points to show each players' P/60 over the timeframe in question in order to [hopefully] demonstrate some of the ups and downs from season-to-season. As you can see, there's clearly an upper echelon of centers that hit the ground running in the NHL. But for the most part the graph is pretty messy with a lot of intersection. Nico is in the lower end of the graph (the green-ish line that starts on the left at point "2.38") but honestly, that he's in the mix with the early career production of some of the league's current best centers is a sign that he's coming along just fine.

I apologize now for any mistakes, I threw this together rather quickly.

1544886410_TopCentersChart.thumb.jpg.a614eee7a3e07983cd4cd32a2b55b3a5.jpg

Edited by Neb00rs
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57 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

If it's worth anything to anyone, I threw together a simple graph depicting the 5v5 progress of centers in the NHL over the first three years of their career as compared to Nico. I didn't just select the players in the graph randomly either. I tried to include the players who had the most points in the NHL between 2016-17 and 2018-19 (the last three years). Additionally, I tried to pick players who actually played center and I excluded players who didn't enter the NHL right away to account for Nico starting as an 18 year old. This took out players like Malkin who produced big numbers on arrival, but also players like Scheifele who took a little while to get going. I slightly broke my rules with three players. First, I don't remember how much center Seguin played in his first few years with the Bruins - I do remember that he found himself as a wing at times. I included him here because he is a center and his draft status was kind of like Nico's. Then there's Eichel who I had to skip a few centers on the list of top point producers between 16-17 and 18-19 to get to (he did miss time due to injury). But I included him because of the great expectations that surrounded his entrance into the league and because of what he has emerged into. Finally, I know Draisaitl has played a lot of wing in his career - and next to McDavid to boot, but he has spent a good chunk of time as a second line center during the course of his career as well.

The chart weights GP and TOI by portraying 5v5 P/60 rather than total 5v5 points over the players first three years in the league. I also picked a line graph rather than just using single points to show each players' P/60 over the timeframe in question in order to [hopefully] demonstrate some of the ups and downs from season-to-season. As you can see, there's clearly an upper echelon of centers that hit the ground running in the NHL. But for the most part the graph is pretty messy with a lot of intersection. Nico is in the lower end of the graph (the green-ish line that starts on the left at point "2.38") but honestly, that he's in the mix with early career production of some of the league's current best centers is a sign that he's coming along just fine.

I apologize now for any mistakes, I threw this together rather quickly.

1544886410_TopCentersChart.thumb.jpg.a614eee7a3e07983cd4cd32a2b55b3a5.jpg

Nice move making Nico and McDavid both green so you can't tell them apart easily. 😂 

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4 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Nice move making Nico and McDavid both green so you can't tell them apart easily. 😂 

Sorry. I know it's a little jumbled - which isn't the best way to paint a picture using stats - but to be fair to me, the actual graph is interactive so that's why I didn't think to distinguish the lines more, but I don't really have any way to upload that version here.

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I don't think it's another rebuild either but at some point you do have to win. It's year 5. I'm a Shero guy and I don't want him fired as of now but at some point you have to win and not just say, 'well we were really bad x years ago when I started' , 'well we were really bad x+1 years ago when I started'. 'Well, . . . .

What has delayed the rebuild is that the first two first round picks were Zacha and McLeod and a very mediocre coach hire.

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7 minutes ago, Antiquated Colorado Rockie said:

I don't think it's another rebuild either but at some point you do have to win. It's year 5. I'm a Shero guy and I don't want him fired as of now but at some point you have to win and not just say, 'well we were really bad x years ago when I started' , 'well we were really bad x+1 years ago when I started'. 'Well, . . . .

What has delayed the rebuild is that the first two first round picks were Zacha and McLeod and a very mediocre coach hire.

I hate responding in this thread, but 2015 is the big goof-up.  2016, McLeod, yeah, he's not going to be an average NHLer, or anything close probably - does anything from that draft picked after him really move the needle?  I like Chycrun and McAvoy, neither are stars, and nothing else from that 1st round is really exploding yet.  The real problem is 2016 was them picking 11th with the team they had.

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25 minutes ago, Triumph said:

I hate responding in this thread, but 2015 is the big goof-up.  2016, McLeod, yeah, he's not going to be an average NHLer, or anything close probably - does anything from that draft picked after him really move the needle?  I like Chycrun and McAvoy, neither are stars, and nothing else from that 1st round is really exploding yet.  The real problem is 2016 was them picking 11th with the team they had.

I actually totally agree and would cut Shero some slack because of it (as of now I don't want Shero gone). In a weird way 2015-16 was bad luck, that year they had no hope of being good and everything came up aces and the team was much higher in the standings than they should have been.

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47 minutes ago, Triumph said:

I hate responding in this thread, but 2015 is the big goof-up.  2016, McLeod, yeah, he's not going to be an average NHLer, or anything close probably - does anything from that draft picked after him really move the needle?  I like Chycrun and McAvoy, neither are stars, and nothing else from that 1st round is really exploding yet.  The real problem is 2016 was them picking 11th with the team they had.

This is really stupid.  You’re basically saying they should have tried to out tank the Leafs and maybe have gotten a shot at Matthews.  Because otherwise, it’s highly debatable whether they’re getting a player in that draft who is better than Nico.

And of course, even without a tank they could have drafted someone who would be their best defenseman right now and still have ended up with Nico unless we’re doing the whole butterfly effect thing.  And just to be clear, I’m not eating Castron’s lunch for going with McLeod over McAvoy or Chycrun.  It happens, I get it.  But I just don’t get this organic necessity some people have to say absolutely nothing is Ray Shero’s fault to the point that they’re actually denying that the goal for the rest of the season is to tank.

Edited by Daniel

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46 minutes ago, Daniel said:

This is really stupid.  You’re basically saying they should have tried to out tank the Leafs and maybe have gotten a shot at Matthews.  Because otherwise, it’s highly debatable whether they’re getting a player in that draft who is better than Nico.

And of course, even without a tank they could have drafted someone who would be their best defenseman right now and still have ended up with Nico unless we’re doing the whole butterfly effect thing.  And just to be clear, I’m not eating Castron’s lunch for going with McLeod over McAvoy or Chycrun.  It happens, I get it.  But I just don’t get this organic necessity some people have to say absolutely nothing is Ray Shero’s fault to the point that they’re actually denying that the goal for the rest of the season is to tank.

You don't get it cause you don't want to see it. The only thing anyone is "denying" here is your stupid claims that he's tanking on purpose, not trying to build a winner and that he said that the rebuild was over. All incredibly stupid things to say. That's all people are denying. 

Anyone else understand the process and the whole situation outside of you it seem. You're making bigger stretches to fit your narrative than snowflakes calling someone racist for... smiling at the sun (there's no correlation or logic there... just like most things you say to fit your narrative)

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52 minutes ago, Daniel said:

This is really stupid.  You’re basically saying they should have tried to out tank the Leafs and maybe have gotten a shot at Matthews.  Because otherwise, it’s highly debatable whether they’re getting a player in that draft who is better than Nico.

And of course, even without a tank they could have drafted someone who would be their best defenseman right now and still have ended up with Nico unless we’re doing the whole butterfly effect thing.  And just to be clear, I’m not eating Castron’s lunch for going with McLeod over McAvoy or Chycrun.  It happens, I get it.  But I just don’t get this organic necessity some people have to say absolutely nothing is Ray Shero’s fault to the point that they’re actually denying that the goal for the rest of the season is to tank.

I'm absolutely not saying that.  Where the fvck would you think that I am saying that?  What in the world would make you think that that post was saying 'The Devils should've tried to out tank the Leafs?'  How can you possibly interpret my post to say that?

And then you strawman into trying to talk about tanking again - all right, I'm done.  Not responding to anything you say here or on HFboards.

Edited by Triumph

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48 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

You don't get it cause you don't want to see it. The only thing anyone is "denying" here is your stupid claims that he's tanking on purpose, not trying to build a winner and that he said that the rebuild was over. All incredibly stupid things to say. That's all people are denying. 

Anyone else understand the process and the whole situation outside of you it seem. You're making bigger stretches to fit your narrative than snowflakes calling someone racist for... smiling at the sun (there's no correlation or logic there... just like most things you say to fit your narrative)

Answer the questions.  Is this team very bad right now?  Is the team going to be worse by the end of the season?  

If you want to split hairs over whether Domingue is better than Schneider, go knock yourself out.  But only in the Ray Shero can do no wrong world  because Lou didn’t trade Parise, something something, can you not conclude that the goal for the rest of the season is to collect assets for expiring contracts, including a former Hart Trophy winner that we all were itching to re-sign not too long ago, and to have the best lottery odds possible.  That is tanking even if it’s not quite as blatant as the 1984 Penguins or the 2015 Sabres.

And if you are actually of the belief that there’s a possibility that the team turns things around, you have probably been lobotomized without even knowing it.

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9 hours ago, Daniel said:

Answer the questions.  Is this team very bad right now?  Is the team going to be worse by the end of the season?  

If you want to split hairs over whether Domingue is better than Schneider, go knock yourself out.  But only in the Ray Shero can do no wrong world  because Lou didn’t trade Parise, something something, can you not conclude that the goal for the rest of the season is to collect assets for expiring contracts, including a former Hart Trophy winner that we all were itching to re-sign not too long ago, and to have the best lottery odds possible.  That is tanking even if it’s not quite as blatant as the 1984 Penguins or the 2015 Sabres.

And if you are actually of the belief that there’s a possibility that the team turns things around, you have probably been lobotomized without even knowing it.

That's not tanking. Tanking is losing games on purpose. 

Trading Hall because he's not re-signing here is not tanking. That's good asset management for the future. Same thing with Vats.

Us not "turning things around" is not tanking either. We were not guaranteed to make the playoffs or anything this year, we're just doing what we can.

Clearly you have no patience, have limited understanding of how things work and you have no desire to understand anything past your own flawed logic. This all started from you not understand why Shero didnt throw crazy contracts to just about any UFA available in the summer... saying he was not trying to build a winner for not signing freagin... van riems dyk to a 7 years contract... you shat on the whole weaponizing cap room for a whole summer, not understanding how important it could be. Then you shat on him for not trading for trouba... as if that was 100% his fault. That he was not trying to build a winner... then he made you look like a fool by using his cap space to make trades and signing to make the team better... and now you're still sh!tting on him. Just just a hater who cannot quit and has to make up stuff to fit your narrative. Where does this end? 

You showed your lack of common sense again in your last post quoting Tri... putting words in his mouth that he never even came close to say. You make NO sense at all and you're basically delusional at this point

 

 

Edited by SterioDesign
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