Rebuild 2.0 Thread

[Devil Dan 56]

24 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

and no 5 years is not a very long time when you look at what had to be done

Its very easy to say 5 years isn't a long time when you aren't the one sitting in the arena watching this mess every year. 

I dropped my full season tickets a few years ago and I have a partial season this year. I can't give these tickets away. I know the team was bad in 2015 but it'll be 2020 next week and we are being punked out nightly. People are allowed to be frustrated without being told that they are impatient. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Devil Dan 56

[HellOnICE]

1 minute ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Its very easy to say 5 years isn't a long time when you aren't the one sitting in the arena watching this mess every year. 

I dropped my full season tickets a few years ago and I have a partial season this year. I can't give these tickets away. I know the team was bad in 2015 but it'll be 2020 next week and we are being punked out nightly. People are allowed to be frustrated without being told that they are impatient. 

haha but you're being impatient!

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

We give away more tickets than any other team according to Friedman, and I believe that - given I've received a bunch of them.   

The team did expect more this year, but the acquisitions didn't work out. Nor did 35 being anything like he resembled late last year, the WC, or even preseason. 

I don't think it's fair to say Ray hasn't brought in positive players. Boyle, Lovejoy, even Johansson worked out when he was healthy, Palmieri, Butcher (although I think he hasn't developed well), Vatanen have all worked out very well. Noesen did too. Hell, even Bobby Butler worked out for 10 minutes. 

I disagree on the start to next year being the key. I'm under the impression, ownership just wants to see steady improvement - and it doesn't have to be linear. I think he gets to end of '20-'21 to see where this is going - unless they are in dead last again next season real quickly.

I mean, I think Shero will get all of next year no matter what.  But I also wouldn’t be surprised if by Christmas next year the team is sitting in last place again the owners might pull the plug on him just to send a signal to fans that they have their limits too.

[HellOnICE]

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I mean, I think Shero will get all of next year no matter what.  But I also wouldn’t be surprised if by Christmas next year the team is sitting in last place again the owners might pull the plug on him just to send a signal to fans that they have their limits too.

That's fair.

[SterioDesign]

34 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Its very easy to say 5 years isn't a long time when you aren't the one sitting in the arena watching this mess every year. 

I dropped my full season tickets a few years ago and I have a partial season this year. I can't give these tickets away. I know the team was bad in 2015 but it'll be 2020 next week and we are being punked out nightly. People are allowed to be frustrated without being told that they are impatient. 

Oh come on now. Saying 5 years isn't a long time has nothing to do with where your ass is sitting during games. It has to do with looking at the situation and analyzing it. Of course 5 years is a long time but looking at what had to be done, 5 years isn't much for that. And i never said you're not allowed to be frustrated, im frustrated too but we still have to be fair.

No GM in history could have rebuild a much better team than what we have. The only way any GM could have built a better team is having MORE luck than we actually had. Landing a pastrnak kind of player instead of McLeod or wtv. Again, go through the thread i started. Look at what we had to start with, look at who was available when we drafted, look at what free agents were available, etc etc every year. There's really not much more we could have done than what we did.

Saying 5 years is too long and ignoring what had to be done is like saying your carpenter sucks cause he didnt finish building your house in 2 days and not taking in consideration all he had to do

Edited December 23, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

18 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Oh come on now. Saying 5 years isn't a long time has nothing to do with where your ass is sitting during games. It has to do with looking at the situation and analyzing it. Of course 5 years is a long time but looking at what had to be done, 5 years isn't much for that. And i never said you're not allowed to be frustrated, im frustrated too but we still have to be fair.

No GM in history could have rebuild a much better team than what we have. The only way any GM could have built a better team is having MORE luck than we actually had. Landing a pastrnak kind of player instead of McLeod or wtv. Again, go through the thread i started. Look at what we had to start with, look at who was available when we drafted, look at what free agents were available, etc etc every year. There's really not much more we could have done than what we did.

Saying 5 years is too long and ignoring what had to be done is like saying your carpenter sucks cause he didnt finish building your house in 2 days. 

Id expect some sort of improvement after 2 days. 

Do you really think it's too much to ask to not be terrible after 5 years? I'm not asking for a cup. I'm not even expecting playoffs. I've been as pro-Shero as anyone but I just want to see something on the ice. So far the only definitives are that we are set at center on our top 2 lines, and probably top 3 since even though Zacha is hated, he serves a purpose as a defensive center.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to start questioning things 

  

Edited December 23, 2019 by Devil Dan 56

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Oh come on now. Saying 5 years isn't a long time has nothing to do with where your ass is sitting during games. It has to do with looking at the situation and analyzing it. Of course 5 years is a long time but looking at what had to be done, 5 years isn't much for that. And i never said you're not allowed to be frustrated, im frustrated too but we still have to be fair.

No GM in history could have rebuild a much better team than what we have. The only way any GM could have built a better team is having MORE luck than we actually had. Landing a pastrnak kind

7 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Oh come on now. Saying 5 years isn't a long time has nothing to do with where your ass is sitting during games. It has to do with looking at the situation and analyzing it. Of course 5 years is a long time but looking at what had to be done, 5 years isn't much for that. And i never said you're not allowed to be frustrated, im frustrated too but we still have to be fair.

No GM in history could have rebuild a much better team than what we have. The only way any GM could have built a better team is having MORE luck than we actually had. Landing a pastrnak kind of player instead of McLeod or wtv. Again, go through the thread i started. Look at what we had to start with, look at who was available when we drafted, look at what free agents were available, etc etc every year. There's really not much more we could have done than what we did.

Saying 5 years is too long and ignoring what had to be done is like saying your carpenter sucks cause he didnt finish building your house in 2 days. 

of player instead of McLeod or wtv. Again, go through the thread i started. Look at what we had to start with, look at who was available when we drafted, look at what free agents were available, etc etc every year. There's really not much more we could have done than what we did.

Saying 5 years is too long and ignoring what had to be done is like saying your carpenter sucks cause he didnt finish building your house in 2 days. 

This nonsense of yours has to stop.   You wanna know a team that was in dire straits just three years ago, the Montreal Canadians.  Their prospect system sucked, they made a terrible trade for Drouin, they reached for Kotkemiemi, they passed up a lot better offers for Subban, and gave Carey Price more money than they should have.  And they are not a joke like we are.

The Ottawa Senators have an owner that makes Vanderbeek look like Warren Buffet.  They pretty much gave away the fourth overall pick in this past draft and practically gave away Erik Karlsson.  And even the very touted prospect they got for Mark Stone isn’t ready yet.  They are a better team than the Devils and their future looks brighter.

We all know what’s going on here, which is your bizarre hatred of Lou.  You look silly believing that the draft picks and being tops on some prospect lists is what creates a winning franchise, rather than the actual winning franchise, one of the greatest ever in the sport, that Lou built. 

There is no objective measurement that says Ray Shero has not completely failed this far.  Our patience is justifiably running out.  The team can’t be this bad next year.  If it is, it’s his fvcking fault and he’s going to be fired, and you are just going to have to accept it.

[SterioDesign]

8 minutes ago, Daniel said:

This nonsense of yours has to stop.   You wanna know a team that was in dire straits just three years ago, the Montreal Canadians.  Their prospect system sucked, they made a terrible trade for Drouin, they reached for Kotkemiemi, they passed up a lot better offers for Subban, and gave Carey Price more money than they should have.  And they are not a joke like we are.

The Ottawa Senators have an owner that makes Vanderbeek look like Warren Buffet.  They pretty much gave away the fourth overall pick in this past draft and practically gave away Erik Karlsson.  And even the very touted prospect they got for Mark Stone isn’t ready yet.  They are a better team than the Devils and their future looks brighter.

We all know what’s going on here, which is your bizarre hatred of Lou.  You look silly believing that the draft picks and being tops on some prospect lists is what creates a winning franchise, rather than the actual winning franchise, one of the greatest ever in the sport, that Lou built. 

There is no objective measurement that says Ray Shero has not completely failed this far.  Our patience is justifiably running out.  The team can’t be this bad next year.  If it is, it’s his fvcking fault and he’s going to be fired, and you are just going to have to accept it.

You started this thread and like 4 other threads specifically to bash Shero. You're the one with a hate problem here and you're the one bringing up Lou here.

The fact that you're not okay with Shero building towards the future adding actual young talent, leading to a potential competitive team in the future but you were okay with Lou driving this team to the ground with a team older than jesus' parents and only adding other old over the hill players to patch holes... with not a single glimpse of hope at the horizon and no plans for the future, is fvcking amazing. Nothing can prove that you're all about "give me something now i dont care about consequences"  more than that. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

You started this thread and like 4 other threads specifically to bash Shero. You're the one with a hate problem here and you're the one bringing up Lou here.

The fact that you're not okay with Shero building towards the future adding actual young talent, leading to a potential competitive team in the future but you were okay with Lou driving this team to the ground with a team older than jesus' parents and only adding other old over the hill players to patch holes... with not a single glimpse of hope at the horizon and no plans for the future, is fvcking amazing. Nothing can prove that you're all about "give me something now i dont care about consequences"  more than that. 

 

Lou Lamoriello:  won 3 Stanley Cups went to two more.  Qualified for the playoffs in something like 24 out of 28 years.  Our arena is filled with banners that his teams brought here.  But your mad it didn’t go on literally forever.

Ray Shero:  fired in Pittsburgh, and his successor goes on to win two Cups with a much older Crosby and Malkin.  Comes here and gets two number 1 picks overall and picks no lower than 18th for four years.  In his fifth year, the team sucks.   But he should get literally forever as long as he keeps trading players on expiring contracts.

I think you actually smoke crack.

[mfitz804]

Someone should ban both of you lol. 

[SterioDesign]

10 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Lou Lamoriello:  won 3 Stanley Cups went to two more.  Qualified for the playoffs in something like 24 out of 28 years.  Our arena is filled with banners that his teams brought here.  But your mad it didn’t go on literally forever.

Ray Shero:  fired in Pittsburgh, and his successor goes on to win two Cups with a much older Crosby and Malkin.  Comes here and gets two number 1 picks overall and picks no lower than 18th for four years.  In his fifth year, the team sucks.   But he should get literally forever as long as he keeps trading players on expiring contracts.

I think you actually smoke crack.

Man how easy is it to write wtv that supports your narrative when you're nitpicking this hard.

Difference is i dont think you're on crack. You clearly have all your senses, you just don't understand sh!t and you have to dumb everything down to results that fits your narrative to understand something.

Let's just ignore each others from now on, it's absolutely useless. 

Having you on this board right now is like a family going on a trip to florida... there's a fvckup with the flights because of a mechanical problem and there won't be any flights for a few days but your vacations and hotels are booked so you change the plan to go on a bus. And you're the kid whining the whole fvcking drive, crying you should be in florida already, refusing to understand the situation, blaming your father which had no control over anything and making the trip worst for everyone

Edited December 23, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Satans Hockey]

45 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

No GM in history could have rebuild a much better team than what we have. The only way any GM could have built a better team is having MORE luck than we actually had. 

Ray lucked into Nico and Hughes. This team is trash with those two as it is, we would somehow be even worse if we didn't luck into them too. 

[Daniel]

24 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Id expect some sort of improvement after 2 days. 

Do you really think it's too much to ask to not be terrible after 5 years? I'm not asking for a cup. I'm not even expecting playoffs. I've been as pro-Shero as anyone but I just want to see something on the ice. So far the only definitives are that we are set at center on our top 2 lines, and probably top 3 since even though Zacha is hated, he serves a purpose as a defensive center.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to start questioning things 

  

There is a realistic path to the team showing improvement next year.  

First, a real coach who has demonstrated that if he has good players he can win and good players will perform.  I think Ray gets this based on his comments at the presser when he fired Hynes.

Second, lottery luck.  Seems like you can’t go wrong with any of the top three or four picks and all of them should be in the NHL next year.

Third, sign Joel Edmundson and Galchenyuk or Kreider.  

Fourth, get creative and try and trade for and sign Dylan Samberg. 

[SterioDesign]

Just now, Satans Hockey said:

Ray lucked into Nico and Hughes. This team is trash with those two as it is, we would somehow be even worse if we didn't luck into them too. 

Well that's exactly what i'm saying. We got lucky landing those guys and it's not even enough. To expect more is just ridiculous. You simply don't rebuild a winning team with the crap we had in 2015 in only a few years. You'd have to be beyond lucky and land homeruns every decision you make.

[SterioDesign]

42 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Id expect some sort of improvement after 2 days. 

Do you really think it's too much to ask to not be terrible after 5 years? I'm not asking for a cup. I'm not even expecting playoffs. I've been as pro-Shero as anyone but I just want to see something on the ice. So far the only definitives are that we are set at center on our top 2 lines, and probably top 3 since even though Zacha is hated, he serves a purpose as a defensive center.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to start questioning things 

  

Yeah and we have CERTAINLY improved. 1- we made the playoffs 2 years ago. That's straight up improvement. It happened. Then 2- our roster is miles ahead of what we had 5 years ago. Same with our prospects pool.

The team is not getting it done right now but we all know we should at least be better than this with the roster we have. The Blues were almost last in the league at this point last year. Sometimes it's just not clicking on the ice. Coaching is clearly an issue. I'm hoping for a coach that can bring the best out of this group next year obviously. That's the one thing we can all universally blame Shero for.

We actually have assets that we can use to improve the team too, we didn't have that 5 years ago. That's an improvement too. I know it's hard to see cause it sucks that the team sucks right now but it's not that hard to realize we have the pieces to move forward.

I mean would you rather have a promising young group to build around so that there's some sort of potential future success? or you'd rather have a forever average bubble team that you just know will never win a cup but win just enough to maybe make the playoffs every year? 

Or say i give you the choice between having a 98 honda civic that runs but you always have to put money on it cause its falling apart.... or a 2019 BMW that has wiring issues so it doesnt work well right now. What do you pick? Do you rather put money and just keep running tht civic knowing it's going to die on you soon, simply cause it works now? Or you'd go for the nice new car that you simply have to fix so that you're set for years?

Edited December 23, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah and we have CERTAINLY improved. 1- we made the playoffs 2 years ago. That's straight up improvement. It happened. Then 2- our roster is miles ahead of what we had 5 years ago. Same with our prospects pool.

The team is not getting it done right now but we all know we should at least be better than this with the roster we have. The Blues were almost last in the league at this point last year. Sometimes it's just not clicking on the ice. Coaching is clearly an issue. I'm hoping for a coach that can bring the best out of this group next year obviously. That's the one thing we can all universally blame Shero for.

We actually have assets that we can use to improve the team too, we didn't have that 5 years ago. That's an improvement too. I know it's hard to see cause it sucks that the team sucks right now but it's not that hard to realize we have the pieces to move forward.

I mean would you rather have a promising young group to build around so that there's some sort of potential future success? or you'd rather have a forever average bubble team that you just know will never win a cup but win just enough to maybe make the playoffs every year? 

We have better pieces. We have younger pieces. We have a ton of potential. But I also don't think people are being impatient in wanting an a semi competitive team after 5 years. Like you know... Maybe lose to Columbus 4-3 instead of 5-1. 

Right now Ray has amassed an impressive pile of Legos and we'd all like to see it take some sort of shape. 

[Nicomo]

28 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Someone should ban both of you lol. 

At least set a limit on the length of their posts lol

[SterioDesign]

31 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

We have better pieces. We have younger pieces. We have a ton of potential. But I also don't think people are being impatient in wanting an a semi competitive team after 5 years. Like you know... Maybe lose to Columbus 4-3 instead of 5-1. 

Right now Ray has amassed an impressive pile of Legos and we'd all like to see it take some sort of shape. 

Of course and i get that. But the on ice results right now probably doesn't represent what the team is "worth". And we also have to look into why we're not semi competitive right now after 5 years. What went wrong, what went right and why some decisions were taken.

I mean let's pretend that the coaching is 100% the problem just for the sake of my next point.

So let's say with a better coach... Mueller, mojo, grabner, subban, gusev etc etc are all playing like Lemieux in his prime. We'd have better results than what we had/have.

i keep saying this but moves don't always pan out. I'm not getting on Lou's case for trading for Schneider as badly as he turned out. I'm not going to get on Shero's case for trading for a guy i didnt want on the team at all who was already declining. On paper that move made sense, just like Schneider made sense, just like Mojo made sense, just like Grabner made sense, etc etc. If a player suddenly fall off a cliff, there's not much the GM could do.

Just like when Minny traded for Dubnyk... they must have thought "lets just get an okay goalie that we know won't kill us at least" then suddenly he was fvcking amazing that year. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by SterioDesign

[HellOnICE]

I will say though, I woke up this morning thinking maybe it's best the Devils do move on from Ray. Cut it clean, now, Fitz is there as Interim. I look at the org from top to bottom, and think to myself, it all just has a cloud of sh!t hanging over it - and that starts at the top. NJ looks terrible, Bing looks terrible - I don't have faith in what's been done with any of the young talent so far from Butcher to Sevs to Zacha to any of them. It can't get much worse. So maybe now is the time to cut the head off.

[Daniel]

35 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

I will say though, I woke up this morning thinking maybe it's best the Devils do move on from Ray. Cut it clean, now, Fitz is there as Interim. I look at the org from top to bottom, and think to myself, it all just has a cloud of sh!t hanging over it - and that starts at the top. NJ looks terrible, Bing looks terrible - I don't have faith in what's been done with any of the young talent so far from Butcher to Sevs to Zacha to any of them. It can't get much worse. So maybe now is the time to cut the head off.

I mean, he has his strengths, which I wouldn’t toss aside so hastily.  If I’m the owner I want satisfactory answers as to what has gone wrong, and a satisfactory plan going forward.  Part of that is the right answer on the coach.  If his first instinct is to hire another one of his Pittsburgh buddies or some unproven AHL commodity, I fire him on the spot because he’ll never get it if that’s where his instincts take him.

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

51 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I mean, he has his strengths, which I wouldn’t toss aside so hastily.  If I’m the owner I want satisfactory answers as to what has gone wrong, and a satisfactory plan going forward.  Part of that is the right answer on the coach.  If his first instinct is to hire another one of his Pittsburgh buddies or some unproven AHL commodity, I fire him on the spot because he’ll never get it if that’s where his instincts take him.

Yeah, he has a respectable pedigree and has done enough good things that he deserves another coach but it is certainly fair to be questioning the state of the team and that if he fvcks up the next coaching hire he's fired. 

[NJDevs4978]

15 hours ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Id expect some sort of improvement after 2 days. 

Do you really think it's too much to ask to not be terrible after 5 years? I'm not asking for a cup. I'm not even expecting playoffs. I've been as pro-Shero as anyone but I just want to see something on the ice. So far the only definitives are that we are set at center on our top 2 lines, and probably top 3 since even though Zacha is hated, he serves a purpose as a defensive center.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to start questioning things 

  

Not to mention imagine how bleak the damn thing looks if they have two more Zacha types instead of getting lotto lucky from 3 and 5. Or even Patrick and a Zacha type. The best thing from the last five years had little to do with anything Shero did other than losing just the right amount both years.

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Not to mention imagine how bleak the damn thing looks if they have two more Zacha types instead of getting lotto lucky from 3 and 5. Or even Patrick and a Zacha type. The best thing from the last five years had little to do with anything Shero did other than losing just the right amount both years.

Whether he's around to see how it works out or not, the real imprint Shero will have made on the team that was the result of his own agency rather than the vagueries of doing well in the draft lottery and picking off role playing types like Palmieri from cap stretched teams will have been remaking the defense into one with at least four big bodies that can handle the puck in their own end and who don't get pushed around.  Like it's a very good bet that next year, the only sub-six foot defensemen on the team will be Smith and Butcher, and in a couple of years only Smith. 

[jagknife]

This thread is 'A Knight's Tale':

Sterio playing the role of Roland: "You're royalty on paper, William, and paper is what they care about"

- This team has improved on paper, our rankings moving up yadda yadda yadda.

Daniel playing the role of William: "I'm a knight at heart!"

- Our team plays like sh!t, we have only made playoffs once since Ray took over, Binghamton sucks, yadda yadda yadda

 

Just something I noticed, continue on the debate.

[mfitz804]

4 hours ago, jagknife said:

This thread is 'A Knight's Tale':

Sterio playing the role of Roland: "You're royalty on paper, William, and paper is what they care about"

- This team has improved on paper, our rankings moving up yadda yadda yadda.

Daniel playing the role of William: "I'm a knight at heart!"

- Our team plays like sh!t, we have only made playoffs once since Ray took over, Binghamton sucks, yadda yadda yadda

 

Just something I noticed, continue on the debate.

More Abbott and Costello, in my opinion.