GDT: Devils @ Stars

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

4 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Several more have made the point already, but how are these contracts an albatross? We aren't going to be a cap team and we clearly won't be paying Hall or anyone else anytime soon

It's only an albatross in that he'll be hard to move.  The hit itself is definitely not the problem and shouldn't hinder the Devils from making any moves that require chunks of cap space.  Being stuck with this version of him is.  Even if we assume the Devils would pick up a significant percentage of his remaining money just to move him, his cap hit is still plenty high enough that any team willing to even think about adding him wouldn't be able to. 

[NJDevils1214]

5 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

But we are not making the playoffs with Hall and Subban.  No use going into hypotheticals at this point.

Subban has been a complete disaster of a trade.  There is no other way to slice it.  The fact that Nashville was so willing to give him up for seemingly pennies on the dollar shows that they knew something Shero didn't know or Shero just didn't do his homework.

When you look at it after the fact it doesn't look good. Unfortunately, Shero can't tell the future and was operating the best info at the time. I can't hold him to some super-human standard- no one saw this season turning into this pile of vomit. 

[Nicomo]

11 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Nashville was deep on defense and wanted to throw money at Duchesne. I don't think Ray dug any deeper than that and assumed Subbans numbers were due to his injuries 

Yep. And I doubt Shero thought his old buddy Poile was trying to screw him over. 

[Devil Dan 56]

20 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

It's only an albatross in that he'll be hard to move.  The hit itself is definitely not the problem and shouldn't hinder the Devils from making any moves that require chunks of cap space.  Being stuck with this version of him is.  Even if we assume the Devils would pick up a significant percentage of his remaining money just to move him, his cap hit is still plenty high enough that any team willing to even think about adding him wouldn't be able to. 

Yeah Subbans in particular sucks. There's no way around that at the moment. I also think that we could at least use his strengths. Why the power play formation doesn't set him up for a shot I'll never understand. 

But Zajacs will be gone next year and Schneider the year after. This team won't be competing any time soon so I don't see those as issues

[mfitz804]

3 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

But Zajacs will be gone next year and Schneider the year after. This team won't be competing any time soon so I don't see those as issues

That's correct. 

And also, PK will not be hard to move during his walk year, maybe even next year. If you don't think someone would take him as a rental, or even take him for the playoffs to make a run and eat sh!t during the final year, you're sorely mistaken. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

That's correct. 

And also, PK will not be hard to move during his walk year, maybe even next year. If you don't think someone would take him as a rental, or even take him for the playoffs to make a run and eat sh!t during the final year, you're sorely mistaken. 

Agree that you might be able to move PK at the deadline in his walk year, especially if you're willing to pick up some of his remaining money.

But hard to imagine not being stuck with him until then, barring a serious resurgence...and by that I mean, still not good but capable of doing some stuff here and there.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[DevsMan84]

55 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

When you look at it after the fact it doesn't look good. Unfortunately, Shero can't tell the future and was operating the best info at the time. I can't hold him to some super-human standard- no one saw this season turning into this pile of vomit. 

Operating the best info at the time?  The same info (his play last season) that was showing a player slowing down?  The same info that Nashville was willing to trade away a former Norris trophy winner for pennies on the dollar so they can fit Duschene?

The alarms were not sounding in Shero's head?

[NJDevils1214]

NJ has to play Colorado on Friday. One is an NHL team, come on that's not even fair. They shouldn't even be on the same ice.

7 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Operating the best info at the time?  The same info (his play last season) that was showing a player slowing down?  The same info that Nashville was willing to trade away a former Norris trophy winner for pennies on the dollar so they can fit Duschene?

The alarms were not sounding in Shero's head?

The alarms were not sounding in almost anyone's head. Everyone was hyped about the potential this team had. Fans and analysts all over agreed our team had the best offseason with the additions Shero made. You're using hindsight.

Edited December 11, 2019 by NJDevils1214

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 hour ago, NJDevils1214 said:

NJ has to play Colorado on Friday. One is an NHL team, come on that's not even fair. They shouldn't even be on the same ice.

Devils should wear these...why not?  They're playing to about the same level as those teams...not to mention it's not like talented #9s stuck on a bad team aren't a part of the franchise history:

Lanny McDonald and Wilf Paiement (they were actually traded for one another in a multi-player deal)

Hell, they can even show up together for this one...sign some autos:

 

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, NJDevils1214 said:

NJ has to play Colorado on Friday. One is an NHL team, come on that's not even fair. They shouldn't even be on the same ice.

The alarms were not sounding in almost anyone's head. Everyone was hyped about the potential this team had. Fans and analysts all over agreed our team had the best offseason with the additions Shero made. You're using hindsight.

And many analysts pointed out at the time of the trade that there was at least some cause of concern due to PK's declining numbers and how low Nashville sold him at.  It was very much indeed a gamble that had at the very least a 50/50 chance of it blowing up in our faces (and it so far has).

8 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Devils should wear these...why not?  They're playing to about the same level as those teams...not to mention it's not like talented #9s stuck on a bad team aren't a part of the franchise history:

Lanny McDonald and Wilf Paiement (they were actually traded for one another in a multi-player deal)

Hell, they can even show up together for this one...sign some autos:

 

Still never understood why CCM kept pumping out those Rockies throwbacks for years with the wrong striping patterns.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

And many analysts pointed out at the time of the trade that there was at least some cause of concern due to PK's declining numbers and how low Nashville sold him at.  It was very much indeed a gamble that had at the very least a 50/50 chance of it blowing up in our faces (and it so far has).

Still never understood why CCM kept pumping out those Rockies throwbacks for years with the wrong striping patterns.

Yeah, for years (on the away ones only), the sleeve and waist stripes were same ratio as the Devils pre-Adidas red and blacks (thin-wide-thin)...I thought those wrong Rockies jerseys actually looked better, but yeah, wrong.  They've been correct for a few years now (stripes all same width).  But yeah, wrong for a long time. 

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, DevsMan84 said:

Operating the best info at the time?  The same info (his play last season) that was showing a player slowing down?  The same info that Nashville was willing to trade away a former Norris trophy winner for pennies on the dollar so they can fit Duschene?

The alarms were not sounding in Shero's head?

What alarms? We needed a defenseman, he had a shot to get PK, former Norris winner and annual all star, for next to nothing, and take a chance that last season was an aberration. The money was irrelevant because we had the room.  And maybe it would make Hall think the right way.

Did it work out? Not so far, but I’m not willing to judge him having played 30 games for this mismanaged team. 

[DevsMan84]

1 minute ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah, for years (on the away ones only), the sleeve and waist stripes were same ratio as the Devils pre-Adidas red and blacks (thin-wide-thin)...I thought those wrong Rockies jerseys actually looked better, but yeah, wrong.  They've been correct for a few years now (stripes all same width).  But yeah, wrong for a long time. 

lol I still like how when the Devils changed over to Adidas they used the new arm stripes as an homage to the Rockies.  Like our fans would remember or even notice that.

[DevsMan84]

1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

What alarms? We needed a defenseman, he had a shot to get PK, former Norris winner and annual all star, for next to nothing, and take a chance that last season was an aberration. The money was irrelevant because we had the room.  And maybe it would make Hall think the right way.

Did it work out? Not so far, but I’m not willing to judge him having played 30 games for this mismanaged team. 

There was genuine concerns at the time.  When Nashville was willing to sell PK so low 5-6 years removed from a Norris trophy campaign that should have been a sign.  I get we were desperate for a D-man, but it looks like we were sold a Ferrari that looks great on the outside but whose engine ain't purring so great on the inside.

I am firmly in the school of thought that if you have to overpay talent to win then you do it.  I am not someone who is overly concerned about the cap (example: me defending Zajac for years).  However, to allocate over 10% of the cap to a player who is not even in the top 2 in his position on a team who sucks at said position isn't good no matter how you slice it.

Bolded: I hope that is the case.  I really do.

[Crisis]

It wasn't pennies on the dollar.  They were getting back cap relief which is a huge asset these days.  Especially for a team that's trying to sign a major UFA to a big contract.

Teams give up high draft picks for cap relief.  I think the Devils picked up a 2nd to take on Marc Savard.

[DevsMan84]

8 minutes ago, Crisis said:

It wasn't pennies on the dollar.  They were getting back cap relief which is a huge asset these days.  Especially for a team that's trying to sign a major UFA to a big contract.

Teams give up high draft picks for cap relief.  I think the Devils picked up a 2nd to take on Marc Savard.

Yes they do. 

Now, how many give up former Norris trophy winners for cap relief?  Is PK on the same level as a guy who hasn't played in the NHL for 7-8 years?

[NJDevils1214]

9 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

There was genuine concerns at the time.  When Nashville was willing to sell PK so low 5-6 years removed from a Norris trophy campaign that should have been a sign.  I get we were desperate for a D-man, but it looks like we were sold a Ferrari that looks great on the outside but whose engine ain't purring so great on the inside.

I am firmly in the school of thought that if you have to overpay talent to win then you do it.  I am not someone who is overly concerned about the cap (example: me defending Zajac for years).  However, to allocate over 10% of the cap to a player who is not even in the top 2 in his position on a team who sucks at said position isn't good no matter how you slice it.

Bolded: I hope that is the case.  I really do.

They had too many good Dmen and had to re-sign Josi and wanted Duchane. The cap relief is what made that trade. It was reported that other teams wanted PK and might have been offering more but wanted Nashville needed the cap relief. 

Ray took a gamble. It hasn't worked thus far, but nothing has worked thus far. It seems irresponsible to point the finger at PK alone. Fwiw eveyone knew NJ needed defense, had Shero done nothing during the summer to address it people would be pissed about that too. I'm totally fine with him taking the chance, it's a shame it hasn't worked out so far. 

[DevsMan84]

1 minute ago, NJDevils1214 said:

They had too many good Dmen and had to re-sign Josi and wanted Duchane. The cap relief is what made that trade. It was reported that other teams wanted PK and might have been offering more but wanted Nashville needed the cap relief. 

Ray took a gamble. It hasn't worked thus far, but nothing has worked thus far. It seems irresponsible to point the finger at PK alone. Fwiw eveyone knew NJ needed defense, had Shero done nothing during the summer to address it people would be pissed about that too. I'm totally fine with him taking the chance, it's a shame it hasn't worked out so far. 

I never said or even insinuated this is all PK's fault.  However, he is a big part of the problem.  A guy who is supposed to be a cornerstone of your defense at the cost over 10% of your cap shouldn't be your arguably 3rd best D-man.

[mfitz804]

4 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I never said or even insinuated this is all PK's fault.  However, he is a big part of the problem.  A guy who is supposed to be a cornerstone of your defense at the cost over 10% of your cap shouldn't be your arguably 3rd best D-man.

Who is second?

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

2 hours ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Yeah Subbans in particular sucks. There's no way around that at the moment. I also think that we could at least use his strengths. Why the power play formation doesn't set him up for a shot I'll never understand. 

But Zajacs will be gone next year and Schneider the year after. This team won't be competing any time soon so I don't see those as issues

That is kind of how I feel. When we got him I was excited about adding the big shot on the pp but I think we've done a poor job of utilizing it. 

I think our coaching has been such crap that I am holding off on calling him an albetross. Coaching is the single biggest problem with the team imo

[NJDevils1214]

12 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I never said or even insinuated this is all PK's fault.  However, he is a big part of the problem.  A guy who is supposed to be a cornerstone of your defense at the cost over 10% of your cap shouldn't be your arguably 3rd best D-man.

Are you arguing on principle or is there some practical reason you care? Simmonds is making 5mm this season and is overpaid too. Why does it matter? What are we doing with that cap space? Nothing. PKs salary won't matter either, not at least until the last year at the earliest. No one else is playing to their psychecks either, save Coleman who always plays above his pay grade.

It was worth the gamble to try to push the team to the next level and potentially keep Hall. 

[DevsMan84]

1 minute ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Are you arguing on principle or is there some practical reason you care? Simmonds is making 5mm this season and is overpaid too. Why does it matter? What are we doing with that cap space? Nothing. PKs salary won't matter either, not at least until the last year at the earliest. No one else is playing to their psychecks either, save Coleman who always plays above his pay grade.

It was worth the gamble to try to push the team to the next level and potentially keep Hall. 

lol Simmonds is gone after this season (probably even before then).  He is not sucking up nearly twice the amount of space for 2 more seasons after this.

His salary doesn't matter in a cap context, but are you going to try to argue that he has been worth it?  C'mon now.  Are we really using this logic to somehow ease the thought about how horrible PK has been so far?  That Nashville was quick to sell him so cheap to make room for Duschene?  Poile probably said under his breath "sucker" right after the call from Shero.

[DevsMan84]

16 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Who is second?

Arguably Greene, which is not good at all.

My ranking on right now:

Vats

Greene

PK

Carrick

Severson

Butcher

Tennyson

Mueller

 

Frankly, I am not sure if PK is better or worse than Carrick.

 

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, DevsMan84 said:

Arguably Greene, which is not good at all.

My ranking on right now:

Vats

Greene

PK

Carrick

Severson

Butcher

Tennyson

Mueller

 

Frankly, I am not sure if PK is better or worse than Carrick.

 

That’s sad. 

Im not sure Carrick even belongs on that list, given he played about 10 minutes of hockey this year. 

[NJDevils1214]

11 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

lol Simmonds is gone after this season (probably even before then).  He is not sucking up nearly twice the amount of space for 2 more seasons after this.

His salary doesn't matter in a cap context, but are you going to try to argue that he has been worth it?  C'mon now.  Are we really using this logic to somehow ease the thought about how horrible PK has been so far?  That Nashville was quick to sell him so cheap to make room for Duschene?  Poile probably said under his breath "sucker" right after the call from Shero.

Like I just said, no one has played well enough to earn their paycheck. That is why I am confused as to why PK is the player we are picking on. I wouldn't pay anyone on this team their full salary right now. They have all sucked and have also all had nights where they look completely unmotivated.