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Ray Shero and Devils Part Ways Effective Immediately


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12 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

CR76

I don't see how you can get any of that from the happenings. "Read the Riot ACt" etc...There's no indication ownership made any in-kind demands of Ray, supported his moves this summer, and the like. The PK move didn't seem out of the realm of things Ray wouldn't have normally done - so I just don't see this unseen hand affecting player movement. 

I think Ray deserved a little better here, maybe one more offseason and start to next season to see what was going on. 

But we don't know what the disagreement was. It had to be something fundamental, I think it has to do with trading guys away now - Ray maybe wanted to move on Sami/Kyle and we all could see that would push competitiveness likely back even further...that's the only thing I can think of. Put that together with "wait a minute, we were building towards something, we added salary with PK and Gusev, now you want to get rid of two vet leaders and producers for this team who still have good years left?" That's what I think is the issue. And put that together with leaving Hynes in for too long, which you can argue led to Hall being dealt for questionable returns, and they see a difference in the direction of the team.

FWIW, Larry Brooks said that bringing in PK was an "ownership driven move."  Although if that were the case, Harris and Blitzer don't seem like George Steinbrenner types who would have flown off the handle if Shero had said "I told you so."

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I don't blame them.  We are in the same place where we were 5 years ago which is the gutter of the Metro.  Yeah we have Jack and Nico, but outside of them we have no prospects outside of Smith that even matter (I am not nearly as high on Bahl as a lot of others are).

If the main defense you have for keeping Shero is posting the 14-15 lineup then you lost the argument.  As SH posted earlier, most of the roster are Shero's guys.  We can't be blaming Lou forever and at some point the finger must be pointed at Shero.

Which I think is why Shero having pitched a new rebuild (put another way, lying to the fans about his intentions) as the tipping point is plausible.  You can show me the 2015 lineup all you want, if after five years, the idea is to "build through the draft" again, what the hell do I have you here for.  Any one of us can take a crash course on how you talk to other GMs to make trades and otherwise get a budget of $500  to buy up every draft book that's out there and do the same thing.

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Looks like Shero sent Fitzgerald down to the bench to diagnose the problems with team and he came back to the owners and told them the problem is Ray Shero.

I’d believe that 100% to be honest

I'm so sick of hearing about 2015. The end of the 2019-2020 season is a couple of months away. I don't care about 2015. We know it wasn't much, but like I said earlier, I'm focused on 2018. That team

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4 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

CR76

I don't see how you can get any of that from the happenings. "Read the Riot ACt" etc...There's no indication ownership made any in-kind demands of Ray, supported his moves this summer, and the like. The PK move didn't seem out of the realm of things Ray wouldn't have normally done - so I just don't see this unseen hand affecting player movement. 

I think Ray deserved a little better here, maybe one more offseason and start to next season to see what was going on. 

But we don't know what the disagreement was. It had to be something fundamental, I think it has to do with trading guys away now - Ray maybe wanted to move on Sami/Kyle and we all could see that would push competitiveness likely back even further...that's the only thing I can think of. Put that together with "wait a minute, we were building towards something, we added salary with PK and Gusev, now you want to get rid of two vet leaders and producers for this team who still have good years left?" That's what I think is the issue. And put that together with leaving Hynes in for too long, which you can argue led to Hall being dealt for questionable returns, and they see a difference in the direction of the team.

I think the owners simply grew impatient...where Ray thought that originally that they'd be willing to suffer through some lean years and inconsistency from season to season.  PK showed signs of decline last year...I gotta believe that Ray knew the PK move was a roll of the dice and far from a sure thing...but assuming that ownership was leaning on him to make some "right now" moves, he took a look at what else was out there (and what was actually available to him), saw that the price to acquire PK wouldn't be too too costly, had the cap room to take that risk, went for it, and hoped for the best.  

I agree, there's no PUBLIC indication that Ray was being pushed by ownership to "move this along...or else" via some riot act, but that doesn't mean that it's not a possibility.  We're definitely far from privy to everything that happens behind the scenes.  

I'll give you that the "final straw" may have been wanting to trade more vets for picks (especially since the team has gone 8-4-2 in its last 14 GP, including last night), and basically go into another rebuild.  What will be interesting now will be how guys like Sami and Kyle are handled.  I think Palms is one of those guys who's "good citizen, involved in good causes" status factors in almost as much as his on-ice contributions...I think the organization loves how he represents them, and the fact that he's a reasonably productive player doesn't hurt.  I'm guessing he's one case where ownership may tell a new GM that Palms is to be a part of the Devils going forward no matter what.  As much as I'm obviously fond on Palms and don't want to see him dealt, this is where I start to worry about "Meddling Owners".  Unless the owner(s) in question have actual hockey knowledge and background, I'd rather those decisions are left to the ones hired to make them.  

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1 hour ago, MadDog2020 said:

That’s the less likely scenario lol.

Well Coleman did become a regular under Shero and got a multi-year deal from him so there probably is personal loyalty there but Coleman’s opinion in this case means nothing more than any fan since he doesn’t work with Shero on a daily basis or is privy to his dealings with ownership

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59 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Re:  the bolded, for sure, we don't...but as far as the owners go, I now get the feeling Shero was read the riot act either during last season (once it was clear that the Devils weren't going to be relevant) or in the early days of the offseason.  To an extent, I think these owners have a bit of "fan" in them...they saw the Devils make the playoffs in Year 3 of Shero's reign, and they almost automatically assumed that Shero was going to find a way to at least keep the Devils in the playoff hunt in the seasons to follow, until they were ready to start winning some rounds.  As we know, it's not always about taking steps forward, or the process being 100% linear...sometimes it doesn't all go according to plan.  I don't think Shero was necessarily blindsided by losing his job yesterday, as much as I think he was by the owners telling him that this thing needed to get a move on, basically immediately...even more so because I'm sure Shero told ownership "Look, you guys are going to HAVE to be patient, I have to almost completely re-stock this team, there really is very little here, this is going to take time, it will not be an overnight thing, and trying to speed this up in the early going with some UFA signings isn't going to get us where we ultimately want to go."  I get the feeling no one was giving Shero a hard time initially, but when last year's evaluation season (we've been over it and it made sense, that Shero used last year to try to get more of a feel for how some of these kids would fit in long-term) blew up, suddenly it was, "Enough's enough Ray, this team needs to start winning and doing it right away!  Do what you have to, we'll let you spend, but it's gotta happen NOW!"

With the above being factored in, I think Shero may not have truly wanted to make the PK trade (preferring not to speed things up just yet), but was trying to toe the line of doing what he wanted to do, while trying to make his owners happy at the same time...and with high-profile potential UFAs either not reaching the market nor having any interest in signing with the Devils, Shero's "fast track" options were a bit limited last offseason.  And even though yes, he obviously got incredibly lucky by getting two #1OA picks to work with, I still think that he had his share of bad luck...Cory's game eroding almost overnight and his contract made that situation incredibly difficult to deal with.  And several of Shero's "makes sense" moves (after a couple of terrific ones in Palms and Hall) simply didn't work out.  

As far as criticisms of Shero go, yeah, he stuck with Hynes for too long.  And some guys like Mueller were given one chance too many.  

Sadly, I do think Shero is a solid hockey guy and it wouldn't surprise me to see him get another job and do well with it.  I really thought he was going to pan out here...and if anything, we won't fully be able to evaluate him until we see how his drafts work out.  That part of it will take some time.  Though I can't say that I'm crushed that he's gone, I would've liked to have seen him get one more offseason, to hire a new coach, make some more player moves, etc.  But if he was indeed championing another rebuild...that would've been hard to stomach.  

 

What I really hope is that this isn't the beginning of some "Meddling Owners" era in Devils history.  I think the current ownership has given both Lou and Shero pretty long leashes (and freedom to spend), but maybe now they're starting to feel like that approach isn't paying off for them, and that they need to start getting more involved.  Hopefully they realize that the end of Lou's era and the absolute dearth of talent within the system at that time was not going to be easy to overcome for ANY GM.  I'm not saying Shero was perfect and he did make some mistakes along the way (and like CD#9 said in a previous post, felt like too many of them had come in the last several months), but I hope the Devils don't now become one of those franchises that's changing GMs and plans every 2-4 years.  Sure, some owners can definitely be passive and patient to a fault, but the other end of the spectrum can be even uglier.  

Shero is also lucky he got fired now and not after burning Rome completely to the ground and turning heel on the fan base. I absolutely believe Shero got himself stuck in a rebuild 2.0 (the fact he pushed back against that verbiage unprompted in the Hall trade presser suggests in hindsight ownership was giving him heat about that), and it wasn’t acceptable to the owners to have the same GM do two rebuilds.

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15 minutes ago, Daniel said:

FWIW, Larry Brooks said that bringing in PK was an "ownership driven move."  Although if that were the case, Harris and Blitzer don't seem like George Steinbrenner types who would have flown off the handle if Shero had said "I told you so."

Which I think is why Shero having pitched a new rebuild (put another way, lying to the fans about his intentions) as the tipping point is plausible.  You can show me the 2015 lineup all you want, if after five years, the idea is to "build through the draft" again, what the hell do I have you here for.  Any one of us can take a crash course on how you talk to other GMs to make trades and otherwise get a budget of $500  to buy up every draft book that's out there and do the same thing.

I think that was the tipping point as well.  The owners wanted to see some vision moving forward and rewinding back to where we were in 2015 is not what they had in mind.

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I’m just thankful ray didn’t leave us with any bad contracts. He tried building a fast,tiny,skilled team, it just didn’t pan out. The way he was building the team I don’t think we’d sniff the playoffs for a while. Of course I have no hockey knowledge and basing this off how I perceive the team .

New gm, fresh start, a few core pieces to build around. Next gm has a 50% chance of screwing it up and setting us back further. I’m optimistic though an look forward to the new nj devils. However, if they sell off bratt I’m forever done with them.

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17 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I don't blame them.  We are in the same place where we were 5 years ago which is the gutter of the Metro.  Yeah we have Jack and Nico, but outside of them we have no prospects outside of Smith that even matter (I am not nearly as high on Bahl as a lot of others are).

If the main defense you have for keeping Shero is posting the 14-15 lineup then you lost the argument.  As SH posted earlier, most of the roster are Shero's guys.  We can't be blaming Lou forever and at some point the finger must be pointed at Shero.

I'm so sick of hearing about 2015. The end of the 2019-2020 season is a couple of months away. I don't care about 2015. We know it wasn't much, but like I said earlier, I'm focused on 2018. That team snuck into the playoffs and got the doors blown off in 2 games before playing decently on their way out in 5. The fact is Shero did nothing to build on that. Yes Hall was hurt in 2018-19, but if your team is built that much around one guy maybe there's an issue. 

2015-2017: Lou left us nothing. 

2017-2018: See? This is a taste of the future

2018-2019: Hall was hurt, Cory was terrible, Lou left us nothing

2019-2020: Lou left us nothing. 

I can absolutely see why ownership may have decided that they had enough. If the rumors are true and Shero wanted to trade off Vats and Palmieri who are guys he traded for, maybe they saw that this place was becoming a revolving door and wanted to go another way. 

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3 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Shero is also lucky he got fired now and not after burning Rome completely to the ground and turning heel on the fan base. I absolutely believe Shero got himself stuck in a rebuild 2.0 (the fact he pushed back against that verbiage unprompted in the Hall trade presser suggests in hindsight ownership was giving him heat about that), and it wasn’t acceptable to the owners to have the same GM do two rebuilds.

I'm sure that they weren't happy with the results, and maybe the fact that Shero's deals hadn't been working out lately meant that it was time to go in a new direction...but it almost feels like the owners didn't quite understand how dire the situation was when Lou left.  But like DD56 just said above me, even if a part of me wanted to see Shero get one more coaching hire and the 2020 offseason, if Shero was indeed pitching dealing off Palms and Vatanen (and possibility other vets), then yeah, I can see how/why ownership wouldn't endorse that.  I just don't know if a new GM will be able to speed this up as much as the owners would like.

If the Devils hire Laviolette before the season ends...then I think we'll have confirmation that the owners are now going to be more involved and will indeed be calling some of the shots...if that happens, I can see Fitz signing an extension and becoming the GM, Marty being the assistant, and a new era of owners who now get involved in personnel matters more than we're used to...I believe these days they call this kind of arrangement "collaborative".  

Of course, if the Devils stay the course with Nas through the rest of the year, and hire a GM who then hires his own coach...I'll feel a little better about the state of the Devils.  Not going to sugarcoat it, meddling owners who possess little background on their sport who suddenly force their way into decision-making where they shouldn't are very scary to me...especially since so many of them are oblivious to the damage they cause their teams.

 

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9 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Of course, if the Devils stay the course with Nas through the rest of the year, and hire a GM who then hires his own coach...I'll feel a little better about the state of the Devils.  Not going to sugarcoat it, meddling owners who possess little background on their sport who suddenly force their way into decision-making where they shouldn't are very scary to me...especially since so many of them are oblivious to the damage they cause their teams.

I haven't been on and cannot read this entire thread. But CR76 says it all right here ^^^^

Did we all hear Harris yesterday?   This guy knows less about hockey than I do for God's sake.

Who we gonna get now?  The Oilers GM we got Hall from?  And Marty making personnel decisions?   lol, what a way to spoil your legacy.

I trusted Shero. Mistakes happen. FA's do not want to come here. Retaining good players will be hard.

Bad decision, IMO

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24 minutes ago, pumpkin cutter said:

I’m just thankful ray didn’t leave us with any bad contracts. He tried building a fast,tiny,skilled team, it just didn’t pan out. The way he was building the team I don’t think we’d sniff the playoffs for a while. Of course I have no hockey knowledge and basing this off how I perceive the team .

New gm, fresh start, a few core pieces to build around. Next gm has a 50% chance of screwing it up and setting us back further. I’m optimistic though an look forward to the new nj devils. However, if they sell off bratt I’m forever done with them.

Technically the Subban contract is a pretty bad one, but it just doesn’t particularly hurt a team like the Devils that aren’t in cap trouble. 

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I didn't get the sense that the owners are going to start meddling in the everyday affairs of the Devils from what was said yesterday.  What I heard was Josh was sick of them losing and thought we would be at least a little bit further along than being in the same spot that we were for most of the past 5 years.  I am glad that the owner at least cares enough to not allow us being terrible to go on forever.

I really still don't get why everyone here is a saying this is the start of owners meddling.  I mean we gave JVB a giant pass on the Kovalchuk contract for Christ sake lol.

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7 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Technically the Subban contract is a pretty bad one, but it just doesn’t particularly hurt a team like the Devils that aren’t in cap trouble. 

2 years left and it’s not like we have many d-men better than him, that’s why I don’t consider it a bad contract. Now if we were agains the cap my view would be different. 

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2 minutes ago, pumpkin cutter said:

2 years left and it’s not like we have many d-men better than him, that’s why I don’t consider it a bad contract. Now if we were agains the cap my view would be different. 

I don’t think he’s worth anywhere near what we’re paying him, so in that regard I think it’s a bad contract, but yeah, it’s not totally killing us so it is what it is. 

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5 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I really still don't get why everyone here is a saying this is the start of owners meddling.  I mean we gave JVB a giant pass on the Kovalchuk contract for Christ sake lol.

"We"?  My Lord, I hated that and was ecstatic when he bailed.  Ecstatic

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1 minute ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

"We"?  My Lord, I hated that and was ecstatic when he bailed.  Ecstatic

Not me. I’ll never get over Kovy leaving. What has all that cap space done for us since he left? I would rather have had a star player who was a blast to watch all these years. 

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7 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Not me. I’ll never get over Kovy leaving. What has all that cap space done for us since he left? I would rather have had a star player who was a blast to watch all these years. 

Really?  Even seeing how awful he's been?  AWFUL. How much longer would that albatross of a contract be going on for? Another 6 years or so?

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You guys are looking backwards for clues, the only one not shocked was marty. 

 

Not trying to conspiracy theory but this feels like marty all over it.

 

Thers not a lot of evidence there but it feels like the elephant in the room.

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7 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Technically the Subban contract is a pretty bad one, but it just doesn’t particularly hurt a team like the Devils that aren’t in cap trouble. 

Only for a couple more years after this one...and yeah, with the Devils figuring to have plenty of cap room the next few years, PK's hit isn't a big deal.  But obviously they may be stuck with him, as his hit is big enough that a contender that might actually have interest in him as a rental in a couple of years may have a hell of a time trying to squeeze his hit in.  

3 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I didn't get the sense that the owners are going to start meddling in the everyday affairs of the Devils from what was said yesterday.  What I heard was Josh was sick of them losing and thought we would be at least a little bit further along than being in the same spot that we were for most of the past 5 years.  I am glad that the owner at least cares enough to not allow us being terrible to go on forever.

I really still don't get why everyone here is a saying this is the start of owners meddling.  I mean we gave JVB a giant pass on the Kovalchuk contract for Christ sake lol.

Since I'm the one who brought up meddling (was anyone else other than me?), to be clear, I'm not there with these owners YET...as you know, I've actually been very supportive of them.  All I'm saying is that I hope that we won't see that going forward.  Like I said, to date they've been pretty hands-off, letting both Lou and Ray do their thing, including being willing to spend.  I just hope that firing Ray in-season, when no one saw that coming, isn't the beginning of a "New Order", where they now feel like they've been burned by letting their GMs go about their business without any input from upstairs, and now feel like they MUST get much more involved.  

One thing about these owners that Daniel and others definitely got wrong is that they're not just some passive outfit that blindly trusts certain people.  Those who held that perception saw that one die yesterday...how many times have you heard "We need to sit down and evaluate..." crap from owners and/or team presidents, even when everyone KNOWS that a GM and/or coach are going to get canned?  Not saying that such official news should be announced before the ones being fired hear it...but obviously Devils ownership, when they decide that there's no light at the end of the tunnel, don't waste any time.   

I think JVB definitely drove the Kovy deal, but even then, I never thought of him as this major meddler...but of course, as a Met fan who's been watching the Wilpons wilponning all these years, my meddling detector may not be the most accurate in the biz.  

26 minutes ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

I haven't been on and cannot read this entire thread. But CR76 says it all right here ^^^^

Did we all hear Harris yesterday?   This guy knows less about hockey than I do for God's sake.

Who we gonna get now?  The Oilers GM we got Hall from?  And Marty making personnel decisions?   lol, what a way to spoil your legacy.

I trusted Shero. Mistakes happen. FA's do not want to come here. Retaining good players will be hard.

Bad decision, IMO

From a strictly forensic standpoint, it sounds like the owners no longer trusted or believed in Shero enough to let him make moves as he saw fit, and on that count, you simply gotta cut the cord...there's no point in keeping a compromised GM around, and not letting him fully do his job.  The question is will the next GM be afforded as much freedom as the previous two were?  

I can't call this a bad decision until I see who the next hire is and what he does.  I did like Shero, but like I've said, it was starting to feel like it wasn't going to work out for him here...enough so that though I can't say that I'm thrilled that he's gone and still would've given him through next season sometime, I'm not crushed by his firing either.  Of all of the moves he made (most of the ones involving players I was on-board with), I think it's the one he DIDN'T make that really hurt...and that's letting Hynes stay on too long.  Firing Hynes was a move was BEGGING to be made...and it almost sounded like Shero finally went through with it more so that Hynes wouldn't be picked on by the fans.  Shero might've let emotion dictate his actions a little too much with Hynes...you can make the argument that Hynes might've been the biggest factor in Shero's downfall.      

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

Really?  Even seeing how awful he's been?  AWFUL. How much longer would that albatross of a contract be going on for? Another 6 years or so?

His play would have just recently started to drop off if he had stayed in the NHL. Sure would have been nice to have him those years where Cory was standing on his head every night but we couldn’t score to save our lives.

As for his contract it was very heavily front loaded. He would have only been getting paid 3.5 million next season, 750k the following season, and then 550k for the final 5 years. 

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1 minute ago, lazer said:

You guys are looking backwards for clues, the only one not shocked was marty. 

 

Not trying to conspiracy theory but this feels like marty all over it.

 

Thers not a lot of evidence there but it feels like the elephant in the room.

Not going to doubt you here. I think Marty is the Shanahan role.

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14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

FWIW, Lebrun claims that Shero was not shopping Palmieri. 

This is all so damn weird. I don’t know what to believe. 

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Maybe it’s ownership that wants to continue to build through the draft and Shero wanted to start contending. Maybe we have it backwards.

We all loved the PK trade, well almost all of us, when it happened so I don’t think it’s fair to use hindsight to blame Shero on that one. I still would make the trade to be honest even though he’s been very underwhelming. Don’t take this as racism but he can do a lot for the Newark community and help bring in fans that might not have ever given hockey a chance. I think he’s looked pretty good as of late too. 
 

 

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8 minutes ago, lazer said:

You guys are looking backwards for clues, the only one not shocked was marty. 

 

Not trying to conspiracy theory but this feels like marty all over it.

 

Thers not a lot of evidence there but it feels like the elephant in the room.

Good. Out with the old mans club I say. Teams are having a lot of success with younger minds at the helm.

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