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jagknife

GDT: Red Wings @ Devils - Thurs 13 Feb @ 7p Easter

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26 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

These conversations are made more frustrating because Hughes could easily have another 10 pts this season if even just 50% of the times he was robbed or hit posts had gone in. 

If he played with people who can actually score when he set them up, even more. 

If he had coaches who had a damn clue about how to coach the sport, he’d be in better shape too.

Like @DevsMan84 said, they’re not robots. They also need seasoning. Our coaches are pathetic. DBA was a joke. His French clone is just as bad. If we do something stupid and hire another Pitt product, I’ll panic about Jack. But I firmly believe he will perform significantly better with an actual NHL coach who gets the game. Not some guy who would suck at coaching pee wee defenders, let alone NHL talent.

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22 minutes ago, jagknife said:

If he had coaches who had a damn clue about how to coach the sport, he’d be in better shape too.

Like @DevsMan84 said, they’re not robots. They also need seasoning. Our coaches are pathetic. DBA was a joke. His French clone is just as bad. If we do something stupid and hire another Pitt product, I’ll panic about Jack. But I firmly believe he will perform significantly better with an actual NHL coach who gets the game. Not some guy who would suck at coaching pee wee defenders, let alone NHL talent.

Moving away from DBA and Nas will be helpful.  However, can't really do much with the current line-up as is with dead weight and guys who are decent, but will be hitting 30 sooner rather than later.  This is why I want a complete teardown that never happened with Shero but should have happened.

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6 hours ago, pumpkin cutter said:

zacha has all the tools to be a top 6 winger. it's up to him if it comes to fruition. 

Physical tools, sure.

Hockey IQ and work ethic?  I haven't seen enough of that to really come to that conclusion myself.

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4 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

I guess this is what happens when you have 7 out of the last 8 years being a complete dumpster fire.  Our fans see average to slightly above average players as star players that must hang around into their 30's and make excuses for draft busts.

I mean, it really is relative.  Coleman on a good team is probably a depth guy - here he's one of the only bright spots on an otherwise miserable roster outside of a few young guys with promise.

I get why fans are drawn to him, though I agree to say he's untouchable is silly.

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1 hour ago, NJDevils1214 said:

These conversations are made more frustrating because Hughes could easily have another 10 pts this season if even just 50% of the times he was robbed or hit posts had gone in. 

If he played with people who can actually score when he set them up, even more. 

Yeah, but how many players can you say that for in this league?  Special players do special things.. I wasn't expecting an Art Ross but a bit more than what we've gotten was the baseline in my mind.  It's a far from apples-to-apples comparison, but Dahlin put up better stats (advanced and otherwise I believe) on a trash Sabres team last year than Hughes will probably end up doing this year.  That's a defenseman vs. a forward, to be clear.

That said, I'm far from the "Hughes is a bust" crowd.  I fully understand he's a kid out there amongst men and he really has no supporting talent on this roster outside of Nico and Bratt (when he decides to show up).  

TL;DR: I would've liked to see a little more out of a guy that was supposed to be a borderline-generational level player.

Edited by Devilsfan118

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7 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

I mean, it really is relative.  Coleman on a good team is probably a depth guy - here he's one of the only bright spots on an otherwise miserable roster outside of a few young guys with promise.

I get why fans are drawn to him, though I agree to say he's untouchable is silly.

He seems like a nice guy and he does give his all every game.  Like CR1976 has said many times on here he is the definition of overachiever.

I just find it funny that a guy who is tracking to end the season with about 40-45 points is considered an untouchable asset or a core player by our fans.

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1 hour ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Yeah, but how many players can you say that for in this league?  Special players do special things.. I wasn't expecting an Art Ross but a bit more than what we've gotten was the baseline in my mind.  It's a far from apples-to-apples comparison, but Dahlin put up better stats (advanced and otherwise I believe) on a trash Sabres team last year than Hughes will probably end up doing this year.  That's a defenseman vs. a forward, to be clear.

That said, I'm far from the "Hughes is a bust" crowd.  I fully understand he's a kid out there amongst men and he really has no supporting talent on this roster outside of Nico and Bratt (when he decides to show up).  

TL;DR: I would've liked to see a little more out of a guy that was supposed to be a borderline-generational level player.

Just because he can't carry his line directly to the score sheet at 18 doesn't mean he isn't special and fwiw I never heard him being described as generational or borderline generational. I heard Kane and Mitch Marner with an extra gear -- so very good but not compared to any current generational players other than maybe his skating to McDavid. People here would be happy if Jack matched Nico's rookie production with a responsible 200ft game, and the only reason Nico was able to do it was because Hall was having an MVP year.  Jack is going to prob put up around 30 points having played with dead Wood all year.

I don't think the Dahlin comparison is fair, but the Sabres had 3 players that year that put up over 60 pts and Eichel  actually broke 80. ATOI was 21 min for Dahlin that year vs approx 16 for Jack.

21 of Dahlin's 43 pts were secondary assists and 20 of his pts came on the power play. 

I'd be surprised if even 1 player on the devils breaks 60 pts this year and the Devils pp has been god awful. Having good players around you makes a huge difference. 

 

EDIT: This isn't to say you can't be disappointed but something I have said often is the expectations needed to be adjusted with the season NJ is/was having. You set yourself up for disappointment if you were expecting a generational player though.

Edited by NJDevils1214
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6 hours ago, Guadana said:

There is no untouchable player except Nico and Mac on this roster. And if van surprisely offer Petterson for Nico or Mac - they weren`t be untouchable right after this moment. it’s an empty boltology as well as talk about unfulfilled expectations from a player selected at any number because of the number.

Hughes is absolutely included as untouchable. It wound be insane to even think about trading what could be a possible franchise changing talent. 

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

He seems like a nice guy and he does give his all every game.  Like CR1976 has said many times on here he is the definition of overachiever.

I just find it funny that a guy who is tracking to end the season with about 40-45 points is considered an untouchable asset or a core player by our fans.

But who called him untouchable or a core guy?  You keep saying that and i don't recall seeing that. I think most people have said they prefer to keep him but if the right offer comes you have to take it. As for the core, that's clearly Nico, Hughes, Mac, and god i hope eventually someone on defense. 

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I guess I’ll have to just keep repeating it until I’m blue in the face, but comparing Hughes to most other #1’s straight up without any context is a bit unfair. He’s one of the most raw players we’ve ever seen go that high. No other player that I know of has stepped right into the NHL from the USNTDP. They all either played juniors in Canada, college, or in Europe. All of which players are going up against guys that can be years older than them. 

We all knew Hughes was going to need some time. It was pretty much unanimously accepted. And yet here we are with bust talk, and half the board hitting the panic button...

*sigh*

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4 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

But who called him untouchable or a core guy?  You keep saying that and i don't recall seeing that. I think most people have said they prefer to keep him but if the right offer comes you have to take it. As for the core, that's clearly Nico, Hughes, Mac, and god i hope eventually someone on defense. 

Yeah, there’s a difference between liking him, and not wanting to trade him for peanuts, and considering him untouchable. 

You named the only guys who should be. Although, it would take a lot for me to be ok with trading Ty Smith. 

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4 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Yeah, there’s a difference between liking him, and not wanting to trade him for peanuts, and considering him untouchable. 

You named the only guys who should be. Although, it would take a lot for me to be ok with trading Ty Smith. 

Yeah I wouldn’t trade any of our defense prospects at the moment. We have to see what we have with Smith, Bahl, Okhotyuk, maybe even Walsh. I'd absolutely love for one of those guys to be considered a core guy ( as in un-tradeable guy to be built around) 1-3 years from now. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

Hughes is absolutely included as untouchable. It wound be insane to even think about trading what could be a possible franchise changing talent. 

Ofcourse. If only someone hire chiarelli back and offer McD. Or Lafrenier. But it`s a fairytale. 

Edited by Guadana

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On 2/14/2020 at 6:27 PM, Devil Dan 56 said:

But who called him untouchable or a core guy?  You keep saying that and i don't recall seeing that. I think most people have said they prefer to keep him but if the right offer comes you have to take it. As for the core, that's clearly Nico, Hughes, Mac, and god i hope eventually someone on defense. 

Many outside of this forum consider him so.

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3 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Many outside of this forum consider him so.

I touched on this in last night's GDT...but there was a guy behind me at the game who bitched and bitched and bitched about how bad he thought this deal was.  He didn't shut up about it all the way through the end of the game.  

Obviously I liked Coleman a lot and am definitely sad to see him go...but his production and his very low hit for this season and next boosted his value to a point where it's completely understandable why Fitz made that deal.  I don't think any of us saw Coleman fetching that kind of a return.  Not even Fitz himself.

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1 minute ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I touched on this in last night's GDT...but there was a guy behind me at the game who bitched and bitched and bitched about how bad he thought this deal was.  He didn't shut up about it all the way through the end of the game.  

Obviously I liked Coleman a lot and am definitely sad to see him go...but his production and his very low hit for this season and next boosted his value to a point where it's completely understandable why Fitz made that deal.  I don't think any of us saw Coleman fetching that kind of a return.  Not even Fitz himself.

If you look at the Coleman trade thread, there were several posters having meltdowns in the first 1-2 pages without even knowing what the return is.  The Devils fanbase has some kind of weird Stockholm syndrome where they attach themselves to average to decent players and make them out to be star players.  Hell in the Greene thread there are 1-2 posters in there that said when the initial rumors came out that Coleman should not be traded at all.  Can you imagine if Fitz said no to that return?  There would be as big of a segment of our fans rejoicing at rejecting that trade as there are who would have been pissed to turn down that return.

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

If you look at the Coleman trade thread, there were several posters having meltdowns in the first 1-2 pages without even knowing what the return is.  The Devils fanbase has some kind of weird Stockholm syndrome where they attach themselves to average to decent players and make them out to be star players.  Hell in the Greene thread there are 1-2 posters in there that said when the initial rumors came out that Coleman should not be traded at all.  Can you imagine if Fitz said no to that return?  There would be as big of a segment of our fans rejoicing at rejecting that trade as there are who would have been pissed to turn down that return.

To be fair, I don't think anyone thinks of Coleman as a legit star...I just think fans in general like hardworking, overachieving, underdog-types, and Coleman had a lot of that in him.  Very easy guy to like, root for, and to want to stick around.  

Though I was initially very bummed to see him go (and I'm still bummed because I did obviously like him a lot), I had a feeling that Fitz wasn't going to pull the trigger on a move like this without getting a very good return.  So I can't really say that any real anger entered into this for me...I had to least see what was coming back before I could allow myself to go there.  And suffice it to say that I'm definitely not angry about this deal.  And even if I'm bummed, it's not like I don't understand the whys here.  

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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On 2/13/2020 at 11:44 PM, MB3 said:

He scored the game winning goal in the must-win game to get the Devils into the playoffs against the leafs in 2017, on an absolute beauty too.

but it seems ridiculous (see: right on par with you paste eaters) to say “he hasn’t scored much when it counts”. Since, ya know, he hasn’t played much when it counts either. This team is dog sh!t for the second calendar year in a row.

LOL wow one goal in one game (which was technically not a ‘must win’ at the time, it worked out that way in hindsight), color me impressed compared to the zero points in five playoff games along with the horsecrap first halves each of the last two years before he picks it up a little once the team is hopelessly gone. The first couple months of any season definitely matter, look how many people got fired and traded cause of our bad October and November.

Look I’m not one of these people who are still crying about Barzal, Werenski, whomever, it was a board where everyone was rated next to each other and easy to make a mistake...but that player has not worked out and was arguably a big reason Shero didn’t work out even though it wasn’t his scouting board.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

Many outside of this forum consider him so.

I tend ignore Devils fans on social media. Most of them have very little idea what they area talking about. I liked Coleman as a player but that return is something you absolutely can't turn down. 

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3 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I tend ignore Devils fans on social media. Most of them have very little idea what they area talking about. I liked Coleman as a player but that return is something you absolutely can't turn down. 

The meltdown on Twitter and Facebook was delicious.

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4 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

The meltdown on Twitter and Facebook was delicious.

Well those people also think our goalie tandem should still be Marty and Kinkaid 

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I get it’s easy to bash the social media sphere which bashes everything but really I can’t blame anyone for overreacting yesterday, having one franchise mainstay dealt right before a game and another major trade (which was a clear signal of rebuild 2.0) happen in the matter of two hours was a LOT to process at once.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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6 hours ago, NJDevs4978 said:

I get it’s easy to bash the social media sphere which bashes everything but really I can’t blame anyone for overreacting yesterday, having one franchise mainstay dealt right before a game and another major trade (which was a clear signal of rebuild 2.0) happen in the matter of two hours was a LOT to process at once.

I can understand being bummed about Coleman (even with a nice return), but nobody should have been upset to see Greene go. To get anything for 25 games of a guy many just a season ago wanted out of here more than anyone else is total win. 

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