GDT: Devils at Ducks, 3/1/2020 8pm Eastern

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

21 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Fair.  I just don't understand why posters here somehow seem to have crystal balls saying he will eventually succeed but me saying there is reason to worry I am just talking out of my ass.

For those who are more optimistic, they can list players who got off to similar starts who eventually (sometimes fairly quickly) figure things out, and go on to fulfill expectations (or at least come close).

For those who are more pessimistic, they can obviously list the players who got off to slow starts and just never could get it going (I mentioned that such players do exist in my post).

Like I said, no one knows with absolute certainty what is going to happen with this kid.  No one has a crystal ball.  Like Nicomo posted, I do see some encouraging signs.  

I don't think you're talking out of your ass.  I just think you're jumping the gun (leaning towards "he's going to be a disappointment") based on a relatively small sample, the fact that the guy involved is still very very young, and the fact that it's not like he's playing in the best of circumstances...of course, if you're a #1OA pick, chances are you're not playing in the best of circumstances anyway, so I can't make a huge deal out of that.  And I wouldn't be using points as the be-all end-all at this point in his career.  Yes, his total point output is far from great.  But I gotta give this kid at least until he's 20 and see little-to-no progress to really believe that he's on his way to being far less than what was expected. 

I'm guessing that if you had witnessed 18/19-year-old Brendan Shanahan's first season (77 GP between the regular season & playoffs, 9 G, 20 A, 29 points), you probably would've had a similar reaction.  Just give the kid some time.   

[mfitz804]

4 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Well, he’s the GM until he’s not. And I do think he gets the job. 

I would also probably worry a little less about a totally new GM with no relationship to Cory bringing him back. 

I’m not sure what other option we have, unless we’re buying him out. And as I mentioned previously, that could create a cap floor issue if we don’t add back some salary. 

[Devil Dan 56]

20 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

For your health, I recommend you just come to terms with the fact that we'll be trotting Blackwood and Cory out there as our duo next season.  I've gone through the stages of grief and have arrived at acceptance already and it'd probably be for the best that you do the same.

Jokes aside - it's probably going to happen.  When Cory falters we'll be stuck desperately looking for a goalie, again.  It is what it is.

I think that was one of Shero’s biggest mistakes. I would like to think Fitz learned from it. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I’m not sure what other option we have, unless we’re buying him out. And as I mentioned previously, that could create a cap floor issue if we don’t add back some salary. 

Bratt and Mac will get RFA raises.  Gotta think the Devils do something in UFA, or even trade for a guy making some coin.  

[Jimmy Leeds]

1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

Can you at least admit he creates a lot of great chances? Almost nightly. I’d be much more concerned if he wasn’t even doing that. And he was truly “invisible” like some have claimed. 

This^

The Devs do not have any finishers...........he's put the puck on the tape multiple times and zero finishing...........I'm not concerned with him at all.   He needs to get back in the center and he needs actual goal scorers.

[Nicomo]

12 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

For those who are more optimistic, they can list players who got off to similar starts who eventually (sometimes fairly quickly) figure things out, and go on to fulfill expectations (or at least come close).

For those who are more pessimistic, they can obviously list the players who got off to slow starts and just never could get it going (I mentioned that such players do exist in my post).

Like I said, no one knows with absolute certainty what is going to happen with this kid.  No one has a crystal ball.  Like Nicomo posted, I do see some encouraging signs.  

I don't think you're talking out of your ass.  I just think you're jumping the gun (leaning towards "he's going to be a disappointment") based on a relatively small sample, the fact that the guy involved is still very very young, and the fact that it's not like he's playing in the best of circumstances...of course, if you're a #1OA pick, chances are you're not playing in the best of circumstances anyway, so I can't make a huge deal out of that.  And I wouldn't be using points as the be-all end-all at this point in his career.  Yes, his total point output is far from great.  But I gotta give this kid at least until he's 20 and see little-to-no progress to really believe that he's on his way to being far less than what was expected. 

I'm guessing that if you had witnessed 18/19-year-old Brendan Shanahan's first season (77 GP between the regular season & playoffs, 9 G, 20 A, 29 points), you probably would've had a similar reaction.  Just give the kid some time.   

Now you’re going to get crucified for going all the way back to the 80’s!!! Lol

Another good example though. I asked in another thread, and it went ignored, so I’ll ask again, does anyone honestly think Hughes would have such low point totals if he was lucky enough to join the 2017 Leafs instead of the 2019 Devils? Matthews had 4 guys that had 60+ points to play with (Marner, Kadri, Nylander, JVM). We have ZERO. 

And yes, obviously Matthews was far more ready. I’m not saying Jack would have scored 40 goals. 

[mfitz804]

28 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Bratt and Mac will get RFA raises.  Gotta think the Devils do something in UFA, or even trade for a guy making some coin.  

I mean I really hope we chase down some other guys...

[mfitz804]

19 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Now you’re going to get crucified for going all the way back to the 80’s!!! Lol

18 year old Gordie Howe in 1946-47: 7G, 15A in 58 GP. 

18 year old Jack Hughes in 2019-20: 7G, 14 A in 57 GP. 

I rest my case lol. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

This^

The Devs do not have any finishers...........he's put the puck on the tape multiple times and zero finishing...........I'm not concerned with him at all.   He needs to get back in the center and he needs actual goal scorers.

Palms is the closest thing that the Devils have to one, but definitely not elite by any stretch, and not always consistent.  I'd say ideally, Palms eventually becomes a really good complementary guy...he's still getting his 25-30 G, but not as the team's leading goal-scorer.  

Obviously things can change and it's probably too early to make any declarations, but it feels like if (hopefully when) this team does arrive, it might be a "by committee" bunch.  

 

34 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Now you’re going to get crucified for going all the way back to the 80’s!!! Lol

Another good example though. I asked in another thread, and it went ignored, so I’ll ask again, does anyone honestly think Hughes would have such low point totals if he was lucky enough to join the 2017 Leafs instead of the 2019 Devils? Matthews had 4 guys that had 60+ points to play with (Marner, Kadri, Nylander, JVM). We have ZERO. 

And yes, obviously Matthews was far more ready. I’m not saying Jack would have scored 40 goals. 

A lot of sh!t went wrong this year, and you touched on some of it...starting with the coach who proved not to be right for the job, and unfortunately the GM stuck with him long enough that doing so wound up costing him HIS job.  

As far as Hughes goes, some of it is on him, and some of it is organizational.  If anything, it's encouraging that the Devils have actually been putting up a decent record for while despite getting Hughes not putting up much in the glamour numbers departments (and though the Devils aren't getting a ton of scoring, they are getting a bit of "by committee" lately).    

Just for the hell of it, some offensive numbers since 12/14/19 (Devils are 17-10-7 since that point...that's a 99-point pace):

Palms:  30 GP, 12 G, 12 A, 24 Pts

Goose:  34 GP, 7 G, 21 A, 28 Pts

Bratt:  30 GP, 9 G, 13 A, 22 Pts

Nico:  28 GP, 9 G, 9 A, 18 Pts (Injury and slump have obviously hurt)  

Zacha:  33 GP, 6 G, 11 A, 17 Pts (I can live with this from him)

Seves:  34 GP, 5 G, 16 A, 21 Pts

*Coleman had 12 G in 26 GP during this time, prior to his being dealt.  

 

And Blackwood:  .928 save% (21 GP)

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Devil Dan 56]

13 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

18 year old Gordie Howe in 1946-47: 7G, 15A in 58 GP. 

18 year old Jack Hughes in 2019-20: 7G, 14 A in 57 GP. 

I rest my case lol. 

Exactly! And what did that guy ever do?!? BUST

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, DevsMan84 said:

Fair.  I just don't understand why posters here somehow seem to have crystal balls saying he will eventually succeed but me saying there is reason to worry I am just talking out of my ass.

To me at this point it's still totally up in the air. The question is why choosing to take a negative stance? 

I understand that some people are simply pessimistic and some are optimistic. So obviously they process anything through that filter ultimately creating their opinion. But I just don't understand why when something could go either way... that someone CHOOSES to take the negative path. There's quiiiiiiiiite a bit of reasons why Jack's stats are not that great. He went straight from his program to the NHL, his size, his linemates, bad team, bad coaching, snake bitten etc etc 

I mean... i think that's my biggest pet peeve here. Posters constantly being negative calling negative sh!t even before it's happening. "Ahhh let's watch Cory giving up a goal on the first shot"... "let's just wave that PP we won't be scoring anyway"... Constantly being negative and posting 56 times a game but when we're winning... they are nowhere to be found. 

I mean... when called out they say that's what they need to do to feel better or wtv. Man what a sad sad life they must have with that mindset.

i mean... if you can take a simple mindset that can keep you happy... why in hell wouldn't you?

Edited March 2, 2020 by SterioDesign

[Nicomo]

4 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

To me at this point it's still totally up in the air. The question is why choosing to take a negative stance? 

I understand that some people are simply pessimistic and some are optimistic. So obviously they process anything through that filter ultimately creating their opinion. But I just don't understand why when something could go either way... that someone CHOOSES to take the negative path. There's quiiiiiiiiite a bit of reasons why Jack's stats are not that great. He went straight from his program to the NHL, his size, his linemates, bad team, bad coaching, snake bitten etc etc 

I mean... i think that's my biggest pet peeve here. Posters constantly being negative calling negative sh!t even before it's happening. "Ahhh let's watch Cory giving up a goal on the first shot"... "let's just wave that PP we won't be scoring anyway"... Constantly being negative and posting 56 times a game but when we're winning... they are nowhere to be found. 

I mean... when called out they say that's what they need to do to feel better or wtv. Man what a sad sad life they must have with that mindset.

So much this. I’m really trying my hardest to be less pessimistic the older I get. It’s just an unhealthy way to live. 

With Jack I see a lot to be excited about, so that’s what I’m choosing to focus on. Hell, I’ve been one the more critical posters here wrt Zacha, and I’m even coming around on him lol. Earlier this season I was making snarky posts about him dragging down anyone that he plays with, but that clearly not the case anymore. I’ll be glad to eat crow, and admit I was wrong if this isn’t just another tease. Nas might have really found something with this Bratt-Zacha-Gusev line. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

There's a little pessimist and optimist in most of us.  A guy like Hughes, who doesn't have a long track record of struggling and has shown some signs...with him, I definitely feel more optimistic.

It's nice that Cory's had a few good games, but when he first came back up, I was in full "Oh no please for the love of God NOT AGAIN!" mode.  And even if he wins every one of his starts for the rest of this year, I'll still be very leery of him if he's still here.  Some guys do earn some of the pessimism that comes with them.    

Edited March 2, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Nicomo]

4 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

There's a little pessimist and optimist in most of us.  A guy like Hughes, who doesn't have a long track record of struggling and has shown some signs...with him, I definitely feel more optimistic.

It's nice that Cory's had a few good games, but when he first came up back, I was in full "Oh no please for the love of God NOT AGAIN!" mode.  And even if he wins every one of his starts for the rest of this year, I'll still be very leery of him if he's still here.  Some guys do earn some of the pessimism that comes with them.    

Yeah, Cory is another case entirely. If Jack struggles 4 seasons in a row I’ll be totally fine with people calling him a bust. Cory being unreliable is just a fact. Not pessimism. 

[SterioDesign]

6 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

There's a little pessimist and optimist in most of us.  A guy like Hughes, who doesn't have a long track record of struggling and has shown some signs...with him, I definitely feel more optimistic.

It's nice that Cory's had a few good games, but when he first came up back, I was in full "Oh no please for the love of God NOT AGAIN!" mode.  And even if he wins every one of his starts for the rest of this year, I'll still be very leery of him if he's still here.  Some guys do earn some of the pessimism that comes with them.    

Yeah obviously it's not as black and white. Most people here have calculated pessimist and optimist for the most part. It's also often driven by emotions in the moment.

[DevsMan84]

40 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

To me at this point it's still totally up in the air. The question is why choosing to take a negative stance? 

I understand that some people are simply pessimistic and some are optimistic. So obviously they process anything through that filter ultimately creating their opinion. But I just don't understand why when something could go either way... that someone CHOOSES to take the negative path. There's quiiiiiiiiite a bit of reasons why Jack's stats are not that great. He went straight from his program to the NHL, his size, his linemates, bad team, bad coaching, snake bitten etc etc 

I mean... i think that's my biggest pet peeve here. Posters constantly being negative calling negative sh!t even before it's happening. "Ahhh let's watch Cory giving up a goal on the first shot"... "let's just wave that PP we won't be scoring anyway"... Constantly being negative and posting 56 times a game but when we're winning... they are nowhere to be found. 

I mean... when called out they say that's what they need to do to feel better or wtv. Man what a sad sad life they must have with that mindset.

i mean... if you can take a simple mindset that can keep you happy... why in hell wouldn't you?

The fact that you are even lecturing me on this when you constantly sh!t on Lou for everything and anything and even to this day is incredibly ironic.

And the bolded part is hysterical because I distinctly remember the tantrums you threw on here when we signed Cammalleri and traded for Subban before they even played their first game for us.

[DevsMan84]

53 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Exactly! And what did that guy ever do?!? BUST

Exactly!  I mean comparing stats of a player in 2020 to a players stats from 73 years ago is completely the same thing.

[Nicomo]

1 minute ago, DevsMan84 said:

The fact that you are even lecturing me on this when you constantly sh!t on Lou for everything and anything and even to this day is incredibly ironic.

And the bolded part is hysterical because I distinctly remember the tantrums you threw on here when we signed Cammalleri and traded for Subban before they even played their first game for us.

I actually remember him being quite calm about trading for Subban...

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

Now you’re going to get crucified for going all the way back to the 80’s!!! Lol

Another good example though. I asked in another thread, and it went ignored, so I’ll ask again, does anyone honestly think Hughes would have such low point totals if he was lucky enough to join the 2017 Leafs instead of the 2019 Devils? Matthews had 4 guys that had 60+ points to play with (Marner, Kadri, Nylander, JVM). We have ZERO. 

And yes, obviously Matthews was far more ready. I’m not saying Jack would have scored 40 goals. 

Again, I am not asking for Matthews level production.  I am asking for at least beat out guys like Zacha and Severson lol.  I didn't think that would have been such a tall order for him but yet here we are.

Just now, Nicomo said:

I actually remember him being quite calm about trading for Subban...

He wasn't ranting and raving, but he wasn't happy either.

He did go off about Cammalleri though.

[sundstrom]

re: Cory

if he's bought out, we go from two more years of $6MM cap hit to 4 more years of $2MM cap hit. this is fine either way.

the last 3 starts have been against some of the worst teams in the league. i don't buy this dead cat bounce for a second. and if he still looks good through the hell schedule that will be march, i still won't believe in him.

the only way i keep him in the plans for next year is if all the UFA goalies scorn the devils (halak, greiss, lehner, khudobin, etc) and the only alternative to keeping cory is kinkaid 2.0 or the like.

re: Hughes

i've stated this previously, but the biggest issue is that he came from USNDP which is clearly an inferior league where bad habits happen. at least 3 times a game, jack tries to skate through 3 or 4 defenders and looks absolutely stupid doing it. watch his highlights from last year - he got away with that all the time. i think its pretty clear that he should've played juniors last year to get a closer idea of what an NHL game was like. and of course, his lack of size is just not something he can overcome right now. nico was similarly smallish but got to play with an MVP, came from juniors, and plays a completely different game.

i'm not ready to call hughes a bust at all - but its clear that there are enough warning signs that we have to be very concerned that this elite talent we hoped we were getting may very well not turn out to be that at all. he's taking the summer off from competition so the devils have to hope that he can add 10-15 lbs of muscle and just get smarter with the NHL game. it sounds trite and "fan like" to say, but you wonder if working with a guy like elias closely and not just on a "here and there" basis couldn't really benefit him.

fitz saying nico and hughes are the pillars for the devils going forward. you hope they are closer to vintage toews/kane than vintage barkov/trochek.

[SterioDesign]

4 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

The fact that you are even lecturing me on this when you constantly sh!t on Lou for everything and anything and even to this day is incredibly ironic.

And the bolded part is hysterical because I distinctly remember the tantrums you threw on here when we signed Cammalleri and traded for Subban before they even played their first game for us.

Well that's apple and oranges but i understand that you'd try to twist it and turn it on me in this case since you felt targeted. 

[mfitz804]

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Exactly!  I mean comparing stats of a player in 2020 to a players stats from 73 years ago is completely the same thing.

Yeah but the stats are virtually identical. 
 

 

[Nicomo]

3 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Again, I am not asking for Matthews level production.  I am asking for at least beat out guys like Zacha and Severson lol.  I didn't think that would have been such a tall order for him but yet here we are.

Severson had almost 40 points last season. He’s hardly an offensive scrub. 

Zacha has turned into an assist machine this year. But yes, it is surprising. So is the fact that the entire draft class is struggling, so who knows. 

But you didn’t answer my question. Do you think Hughes has a 30 point rookie season if we where stacked like that team was?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Nicomo

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Well that's apple and oranges but i understand that you'd try to twist it and turn it on me in this case since you felt targeted. 

While we are on the topic, I like apples and hate fvcking oranges with a passion. 

Just now, Nicomo said:

Severson had almost 40 points last season. He’s hardly an offensive scrub. 

Zacha has turned into an assist machine this year. But yes, it is surprising. So is the fact that the entire draft class is struggling, so who knows. 

Does 22 in 61 games make you a “machine”?

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

For those who are more optimistic, they can list players who got off to similar starts who eventually (sometimes fairly quickly) figure things out, and go on to fulfill expectations (or at least come close).

For those who are more pessimistic, they can obviously list the players who got off to slow starts and just never could get it going (I mentioned that such players do exist in my post).

Like I said, no one knows with absolute certainty what is going to happen with this kid.  No one has a crystal ball.  Like Nicomo posted, I do see some encouraging signs.  

I don't think you're talking out of your ass.  I just think you're jumping the gun (leaning towards "he's going to be a disappointment") based on a relatively small sample, the fact that the guy involved is still very very young, and the fact that it's not like he's playing in the best of circumstances...of course, if you're a #1OA pick, chances are you're not playing in the best of circumstances anyway, so I can't make a huge deal out of that.  And I wouldn't be using points as the be-all end-all at this point in his career.  Yes, his total point output is far from great.  But I gotta give this kid at least until he's 20 and see little-to-no progress to really believe that he's on his way to being far less than what was expected. 

I'm guessing that if you had witnessed 18/19-year-old Brendan Shanahan's first season (77 GP between the regular season & playoffs, 9 G, 20 A, 29 points), you probably would've had a similar reaction.  Just give the kid some time.   

I don't put that much stock in that though.  If that is the case a first overall pick would be constantly getting ~25 points in their rookie year more often than they are now.  25 points in their rookie years for a first overall for a forward playing in a top 9 and top line role is alarming any way you slice it.

I also really am a little tired of the points is not the be-all, end-all line.  Not blaming you in particular, but I hear that way too much over the past few years to justify players like Zajac and Zacha while we are sitting in the basement for 7 of the past 8 years.  We need a guy who can score 75+ points a season pretty regularly desperately and that is what we are hoping for in Jack.  Again, I know it is early, but so far it is not looking encouraging.