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GDT: Devils at Ducks, 3/1/2020 8pm Eastern


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29 minutes ago, PacificDevil said:

For every Sabres rebuild there’s Colorado rebuild it’s absolutely normal for fans to expect something in-between in 5 years at the very least, meaning playoff bubble team with young guys developing year after year not regressing

You mean the Colorado team who picked Matt Duchene 3rd overall in 2009... Langeskog 2nd overall 2 years later in 2011... Nathan Mackinnon first overall 2 years later in 2013... Rantanen 10th overall in 2015... Tyler Jost 10th overall in 2016... Makar 4th overall in 2017... etc etc and we know they were worst in the standings than where they picked in some cases. they were often like last in the league which is something we never did

they missed the playoffs in 2008-2009... drafted duchene... made the playoffs the next year... then missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years... then lost in the first round in 2014... then missed the playoffs another 3 seasons in a row... 

So are you sure you want to use them as your example? Thats 11 years of up and downs. Since 2007... last season was the first time they made the playoffs twice in a row. They went twice missing it 3 years in a row too during that span

 

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53 minutes ago, PacificDevil said:

For every Sabres rebuild there’s Colorado rebuild it’s absolutely normal for fans to expect something in-between in 5 years at the very least, meaning playoff bubble team with young guys developing year after year not regressing

and there's a panthers rebuild.

and an oilers rebuild.

outside of the vegas anomaly, who are the dominant teams in the league with consistency? oh right, it's the teams with the generational talent that were lucky to get them in the years they were draft eligible. i know that's a bit lazy but rebuilds are not just about strategy. they're about hitting on the draft capital and trades you make and while you work to make educated guesses, they don't always work out. that's the way it is. while we like to bring up connor chatham a lot, every team in the league makes that mistake all the time.

ray's strategy for this rebuild (and fitz carrying the torch) has been right fvcking on. he made incremental trades that all made 100% on paper and just didn't work out most of the time. he didn't sign terrible contracts for an over the hill guy in some stupid win now move before its time (besides simmonds).

the devils rebuild has been stalled by goaltending more than anything else and that's pretty clear as day.

every team in the league's success pretty much revolves around goaltending and with very little exception, it's ridiculously volatile and hard to predict and guarantee.

if non-blackwood starters were slightly below league average as opposed to being far and away the worst in the league, you're looking at a playoff bubble team assuming they didn't deal taylor hall.

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3 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

Lol listen. The "look at our 2015 lineup" has nothing to do with Lou or Shero, its not an excuse, it's a reality. You don't rebuild from THAT roster in 5 years without being incredibly lucky. We've been the luckiest we could be getting 2 first overall picks and that's not even enough. What does that tell you? I made a topic specifically on that going through every season since 2015 showing what were the possible moves, what we did, who we drafted etc etc... anyone willing to look at that with common sense understand that yeah... it was going to be a long road to rebuild a contender. 

I mean... honestly take a step back and challenge your mindset here and ask yourself if its making any sense... All you want and care about are results, that's all you're looking at... and you basically don't care about why we're so bad and how it could be better, what's realistic and what it will take. That's about as disconnected you can be and no wonder you're frustrated. Thats basically like people who don't understant that money doesnt grow on trees and keep whining about slow services or wtv cause they are waiting too long because there's a lack of staff or ressourced, or they are pissed that a restaurant is not open as late as other restaurants or they feel they are paying too much but they don't understand a thing about it and why it is the way it is.

Just the fact that some have a number in their head that... a rebuild shouldn't be more than x amount of years is ridiculous. It's not something you can guarantee. Just look at the fvcking Sabres who's been picking in the bottom half and got a bunch of top picks over the last decade. They still suck. 

To pin this on the whole Lou thing is just lazy and you being in denial and not willing to accept reality. Bringing up what the team was 5 years ago is 200% relevant especially when YOU brought it up.

Just stop already.  The bolded makes your "be patient" spiel look even worse.  I also didn't bring up the 2015 lineup, you did.  Again.  For the umpteenth time in your constant quest to either knock Lou, prop up Shero or both.  We all know your underlying motivations so just stop.

In 2020 we are still in the same place as we were in 2015.  Yeah we may have better prospects on paper, but what good are they when this team still has a major issue with developing players, an interim HC, an interim GM and an ownership that wants to win sooner rather than later?  That's a recipe for another 5 years of picking in the 1-10 drafting slots.  Yeah, right now, we look an awful like the fvcking Sabres if you ask me.

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1 hour ago, sundstrom said:

and there's a panthers rebuild.

and an oilers rebuild.

outside of the vegas anomaly, who are the dominant teams in the league with consistency? oh right, it's the teams with the generational talent that were lucky to get them in the years they were draft eligible. i know that's a bit lazy but rebuilds are not just about strategy. they're about hitting on the draft capital and trades you make and while you work to make educated guesses, they don't always work out. that's the way it is. while we like to bring up connor chatham a lot, every team in the league makes that mistake all the time.

ray's strategy for this rebuild (and fitz carrying the torch) has been right fvcking on. he made incremental trades that all made 100% on paper and just didn't work out most of the time. he didn't sign terrible contracts for an over the hill guy in some stupid win now move before its time (besides simmonds).

the devils rebuild has been stalled by goaltending more than anything else and that's pretty clear as day.

every team in the league's success pretty much revolves around goaltending and with very little exception, it's ridiculously volatile and hard to predict and guarantee.

if non-blackwood starters were slightly below league average as opposed to being far and away the worst in the league, you're looking at a playoff bubble team assuming they didn't deal taylor hall.

NJ doesn't look to have generational talent, struggles to develop players outside of a couple exceptions, and has not drafted all that well outside of the two number one overall picks.

Goaltending is a central issue, but it is one of many issues with this team.  Blowing those early season leads game in and game out was not a goaltending-only issue.

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6 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

In 2020 we are still in the same place as we were in 2020. 

Word. 

4 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

NJ doesn't look to have generational talent, struggles to develop players outside of a couple exceptions, and has not drafted all that well outside of the two number one overall picks.

And both of those guys are busts!!!

;) 

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2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

 Blowing those early season leads game in and game out was not a goaltending-only issue.

you're right. it wasn't goaltending-only. it was goaltending 90% and bad coaching/game management/execution 10%.

i'll also agree with you that, from a development standpoint, it seems that the successes (read: blake coleman, damon severson, jesper bratt) are ridiculously outnumbered by the failures (read: what is essentially the entire binghamton devils). but that could simply be hometeam bias. without doing the math, i'd be willing to be that the devils' hit rate is pretty much in line with the rest of the league.

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15 minutes ago, sundstrom said:

you're right. it wasn't goaltending-only. it was goaltending 90% and bad coaching/game management/execution 10%.

Wait, none of it was having a sh!tty defense??

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19 minutes ago, sundstrom said:

you're right. it wasn't goaltending-only. it was goaltending 90% and bad coaching/game management/execution 10%.

i'll also agree with you that, from a development standpoint, it seems that the successes (read: blake coleman, damon severson, jesper bratt) are ridiculously outnumbered by the failures (read: what is essentially the entire binghamton devils). but that could simply be hometeam bias. without doing the math, i'd be willing to be that the devils' hit rate is pretty much in line with the rest of the league.

Defense was also terrible with Butcher regressing further, minus man being himself, and the $9M Man looking like a 7th defender while clowning around with Memo Paris on twitter.

I don't think it is hometown bias.  I really do think we are worse (even if slightly) than most of the league with developing players.

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6 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

People pointed out all the time how long it was that Schneider didn't get a win.

I am all about equal opportunity when it comes to criticizing our players.  Hughes doesn't and shouldn't be treated any differently.

Well, there’s a bit of a difference between an 18 year old rookie struggling to score, and a veteran goalie not winning a game for a full year at a time...

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6 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

So we should be looking at it that we didn't get a kid who is a disaster simply because he can't stay healthy rather than guys who are looking to be better players than Nico.

You really are a glass half-full kind of guy.

Nico is a really good hockey player. Period. That’s how I look at it. 

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For whatever it is worth, you can look at the Devils’ own franchise history to see it often takes time for a youth movement to pay dividends. Including the Devils’ Scouts/Rockies history, for about the first 10 years of the team’s existence, up through about the 1983-84 season, the Devils/Rockies/Scouts didn’t have a clear direction, often went for quick fixes to their problems, and did not really try to implement a youth movement. The team wasn’t very successful either, never finishing with more than 59 points in an 80 game, pre-loser point season.

Starting in about the 1984-85 season, the Devils did consciously try to build more through youth. The Devils eventually did get better, but they still had non-playoff, not close to .500 seasons for 3 more years and 4 of the next 5 seasons through the 1988-89 season (and barely made the playoffs and finished above .500 in 1987-88). It wasn’t until 1989-90 the Devils started becoming a regular playoff team and until 1993-94 that they became a serious Stanley Cup contender.

The whole process from starting the youth movement to becoming a regular playoff team took 5+ years, and that was during a time when there were a lot more younger players in the NHL, the league generally had less competitive balance, and almost all teams made the playoffs (4 of 6 teams in the Devils’ division and 16 of 21 teams in the NHL as a whole). The process in going from a mediocre team with older players to a younger, ascending team takes time; it doesn’t happen in a couple years.

Having said the above, IMO the Devils haven’t done a good enough job selecting and developing young players. The higher talent young guys the Devils have now have to collectively step up their games IMO.


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CHIP72, don’t forget that the Scouts and Rockies also suffered from multiple ownership changes...in Colorado alone, you had Jack Vickers, then Arthur Imperatore (who wanted to move the team to NJ, but couldn’t get approval without a viable arena at the time...this was 1978), then Peter Gilbert.  That was part of the reason for the constant changes in philosophy.  

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31 minutes ago, '7' said:

Arthur Imperatore. Still kicking at 94!

Holy sh!t I had no idea he was still alive!

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On 3/2/2020 at 6:06 PM, DevsMan84 said:

Very much this.  I am beyond sick and tired of the Devils being a bunch of losers.  We are about the same point standings-wise as we were 5 years ago.  That's tires spinning in the mud.

We have an interim HC, an interim GM, owners who think we can win now, a $9M black hole on defense, a goaltending situation that relies heavily on a rookie, our top scorer won't hit 60 points for the 5th season in a row, a top overall pick that has turned out to be maybe the 3rd or 4th best pick in his draft class, another first overall pick that may not even hit 25 points in a season, are a not-so-sought after destination for top UFA's, and scouting department that has hardly improved since the Lou/Shero days.

But I guess I am just being way too pessimistic lol.

 

7 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

Just stop already.  The bolded makes your "be patient" spiel look even worse.  I also didn't bring up the 2015 lineup, you did.  Again.  For the umpteenth time in your constant quest to either knock Lou, prop up Shero or both.  We all know your underlying motivations so just stop.

In 2020 we are still in the same place as we were in 2015.  Yeah we may have better prospects on paper, but what good are they when this team still has a major issue with developing players, an interim HC, an interim GM and an ownership that wants to win sooner rather than later?  That's a recipe for another 5 years of picking in the 1-10 drafting slots.  Yeah, right now, we look an awful like the fvcking Sabres if you ask me.

Nope. You brought up the state of the team 5 years ago.

And there's no underlying motivation here. I may have blamed Lou for the way he handled his UFAs and propped the way Shero did it but as soon as he went against that i blamed him last summer for not taking care of Hall during the summer. I understand the situation was tricky but still, at least im consistant and not biased. its not about who does what, its about what's been done

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5 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

CHIP72, don’t forget that the Scouts and Rockies also suffered from multiple ownership changes...in Colorado alone, you had Jack Vickers, then Arthur Imperatore (who wanted to move the team to NJ, but couldn’t get approval without a viable arena at the time...this was 1978), then Peter Gilbert.  That was part of the reason for the constant changes in philosophy.  

True, good point.  In Kansas City the Scouts' ownership was split too many different ways and didn't have deep enough pockets.  In Denver, there were three different owners in six years.  In both Kansas City and Denver, there were frequent general manager and coaching changes, and also many trades.  (Of course, the Devils still made many coaching changes even after moving to north Jersey and even after they became a serious Stanley Cup contender, so maybe that wasn't a problem, LOL.)  Though we make light of it now, these are the reasons why Wayne Gretzky called the Devils a Mickey Mouse organization in late 1983.

Even though John McMullen did bring ownership stability when he bought the team and moved it the Meadowlands, it still took a few more years until the Devils finally got true organizational stability after Lou Lamoriello came in as team president and general manager.

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10 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

 

Nope. You brought up the state of the team 5 years ago.

And there's no underlying motivation here. I may have blamed Lou for the way he handled his UFAs and propped the way Shero did it but as soon as he went against that i blamed him last summer for not taking care of Hall during the summer. I understand the situation was tricky but still, at least im consistant and not biased. its not about who does what, its about what's been done

I pointed out how we are still in the same shape standings wise now as we were 5 years ago.  You are smart enough to know that is quite a bit different than posting the fvcking 2015 roster for God knows how many times now and say "LoOk At WhAt We HaD tO wOrK wItH tHoUgH!"

Brand new GM, brand new coaching staff, brand new players and they still couldn't get this team to move up the standings with the exception of a 2 players playing the best season of their careers.

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12 hours ago, CHIP72 said:

True, good point.  In Kansas City the Scouts' ownership was split too many different ways and didn't have deep enough pockets.  In Denver, there were three different owners in six years.  In both Kansas City and Denver, there were frequent general manager and coaching changes, and also many trades.  (Of course, the Devils still made many coaching changes even after moving to north Jersey and even after they became a serious Stanley Cup contender, so maybe that wasn't a problem, LOL.)  Though we make light of it now, these are the reasons why Wayne Gretzky called the Devils a Mickey Mouse organization in late 1983.

Even though John McMullen did bring ownership stability when he bought the team and moved it the Meadowlands, it still took a few more years until the Devils finally got true organizational stability after Lou Lamoriello came in as team president and general manager.

I do remember when the Devils first arrived, that they pretty much said no more making the same mistakes that the Rockies made...no first-round picks being dealt for Dave Cameron and Bob Lorimer (the Islanders seemed to be the best at taking advantage of the Rockies...that pick would turn into Pat LaFontaine).  They intended to build slowly and surely, and sure enough, pieces started to make their way onto the squad (and after that awful 1983-84 season, they began to make slow progress).  

It's been discussed here, but Lou actually inherited more talent than many realize...and it took a while for the team to truly make progress under him, after that 1987-88 playoff run...they spun their wheels for a while.  Lou collected a lot of nice ingredients (and in some trades gone wrong, some not-so-nice ones, like Sylvian Turgeon), but needed someone to prepare and cook the meal, which is what Lemaire did (Lou's Plan A called for Herb Brooks to be the one, but that obviously went pretty badly).  Some less patient owners might have canned Lou before the team turned around...I think if Lemaire hadn't worked out, Lou's probably shown the door shortly thereafter...McMullen was already making snarky little comments about Lou in the early 90s and appeared to growing impatient, and Lou was clearly a bit miffed by that.  

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5 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

I pointed out how we are still in the same shape standings wise now as we were 5 years ago.  You are smart enough to know that is quite a bit different than posting the fvcking 2015 roster for God knows how many times now and say "LoOk At WhAt We HaD tO wOrK wItH tHoUgH!"

Brand new GM, brand new coaching staff, brand new players and they still couldn't get this team to move up the standings with the exception of a 2 players playing the best season of their careers.

Well as long as there's people like you saying "all i know and care about is that we only made the playoffs once in the last 5 years" as if that's a failure on the management and not just common sense that we simply cannot rebuild and recover from that roster that quickly... i'll bring up the "look what we had to work with though"

It's really that simple.

It's like if you let your old house break down for decades not renovating or investing in the long-term, you're just patching everything yourself with duct tape. It gets to the point it's all rotten, there's mold everywhere, the isolation, the foundation is cracked, the electrical / heating and plumbing system are all fvcked. You have no savings and insurance either. But hey, you focused on "at least i have a roof over my head" and nothing else for years ignoring the future.

But the future is now and then you get to a point where you HAVE to do something cause you can't live there anymore if you don't. But you basically have to start from scratch having to fix EVERYTHING

Well if you don't have any money, can't get a loan and not many ressources...You'll have to go at it piece by piece and wait for deals. Replace the pipes.... then eventually the electrical... eventually the isolation etc etc 

It's the same damn thing. the only difference is that the Devils have money. but saddly unlike renovating a house.. you can't just go and buy a first line winger, a top D etc even if you have all the money in the world. The piping has to WANT to go to your house. So you gotta add pieces every summer and make smart trades.. which takes a LOT of time to get right when you start with nothing.

And to make things worst as you're struggling to rebuild the house. You kids and wife are constantly whining that it's been 5 years and there's still no hot water for showers and say that the house is just as sh!tty as it was 5 years ago cause they dont have hot water and only focus on that aspect. How would you NOT point out like "i know im sorry but at least now we have heat in our rooms and the ceiling is not leaking anymore... it's a process but we'll get there". 

 

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

Well as long as there's people like you saying "all i know and care about is that we only made the playoffs once in the last 5 years" as if that's a failure on the management and not just common sense that we simply cannot rebuild and recover from that roster that quickly... i'll bring up the "look what we had to work with though"

It's really that simple.

It's like if you let your old house break down for decades not renovating or investing in the long-term, you're just patching everything yourself with duct tape. It gets to the point it's all rotten, there's mold everywhere, the isolation, the foundation is cracked, the electrical / heating and plumbing system are all fvcked. You have no savings and insurance either. But hey, you focused on "at least i have a roof over my head" and nothing else for years ignoring the future.

But the future is now and then you get to a point where you HAVE to do something cause you can't live there anymore if you don't. But you basically have to start from scratch having to fix EVERYTHING

Well if you don't have any money, can't get a loan and not many ressources...You'll have to go at it piece by piece and wait for deals. Replace the pipes.... then eventually the electrical... eventually the isolation etc etc 

It's the same damn thing. the only difference is that the Devils have money. but saddly unlike renovating a house.. you can't just go and buy a first line winger, a top D etc even if you have all the money in the world. The piping has to WANT to go to your house. So you gotta add pieces every summer and make smart trades.. which takes a LOT of time to get right when you start with nothing.

And to make things worst as you're struggling to rebuild the house. You kids and wife are constantly whining that it's been 5 years and there's still no hot water for showers and say that the house is just as sh!tty as it was 5 years ago cause they dont have hot water and only focus on that aspect. How would you NOT point out like "i know im sorry but at least now we have heat in our rooms and the ceiling is not leaking anymore... it's a process but we'll get there". 

 

And after 5 years of rebuilding Shero comes into this season last summer saying that they are ready to compete NOW.

Well guess what happened?  That shiny new house that Shero built is a terribly-built deathtrap.

This is why I called for a complete teardown again.  However, I am having my doubts on rebuilding this new house when key pieces are iffy, we have interim "contractors" building the house (GM, HC), stuck with an overpriced water heater that seems to leak more than it actually heats water, and have to depend on a piece of equipment that is not tested yet (MB29).

(FFS I hate replying to one of your patented sh!tty analogies with a similar sh!tty analogy.  I will never do this again)

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35 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

And after 5 years of rebuilding Shero comes into this season last summer saying that they are ready to compete NOW.

Well guess what happened?  That shiny new house that Shero built is a terribly-built deathtrap.

This is why I called for a complete teardown again.  However, I am having my doubts on rebuilding this new house when key pieces are iffy, we have interim "contractors" building the house (GM, HC), stuck with an overpriced water heater that seems to leak more than it actually heats water, and have to depend on a piece of equipment that is not tested yet (MB29).

(FFS I hate replying to one of your patented sh!tty analogies with a similar sh!tty analogy.  I will never do this again)

there's no need for a tear down. We're adding good pieces, it's just not enough yet. And its about timing and luck. We got the BEST pieces we could possibly get with the draft. If those were McDavid and Matthews instead of Hughes and Nico it's not the same situation anymore.

Which is why you can't put a definite timeline as to when things will officially be better, it's all about who you're adding and how it's working out.

I just honestly don't understand how everyone cannot understand that it would possibly take a long time to recover. 

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35 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

there's no need for a tear down. We're adding good pieces, it's just not enough yet. And its about timing and luck. We got the BEST pieces we could possibly get with the draft. If those were McDavid and Matthews instead of Hughes and Nico it's not the same situation anymore.

Which is why you can't put a definite timeline as to when things will officially be better, it's all about who you're adding and how it's working out.

I just honestly don't understand how everyone cannot understand that it would possibly take a long time to recover. 

We look at teams like Buffalo who have been rebuilding forever and see that can happen with us.

Eventually there has to be a payoff.  Constantly acquiring picks and prospects when we still cannot draft well (outside the first overall) and cannot even develop our own prospects does not bode well.

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