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NHL: 24 team playoffs soon. Devil's season is over


Satans Hockey
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29 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

I don't even see Iginla as a sure fire first ballot hall of famer when I compare him to Elias. I know Iginla had two 50 goal seasons and led the league in goals a few times but meh. 

Iginla had 1554 games 625 goals 675 assists 1300 points. Points per game is 0.836

Elias had 1240 games 408 goals 617 assists 1025 points. Points per game is 0.826

Playoffs

Elias has twice the amount of games played and has 2 cups and 4 finals appearances and lots of huge clutch moments...... Iginla had one actual run in the playoffs in 2004, other than that it's bare bones. I know it's a team sport and blah blah blah but he was on teams that mainly missed the playoffs and only made it out of the first round 1 time in his like 16 seasons in Calgary and only 2 other times overall and it was one time each in Pittsburgh and Boston. That lone 2004 run was the only time he made it out of the second round during his entire career. 

Obviously I'm a bit bias but I'd still take Elias over Iginla any day and I don't think the margin of difference is that huge for this article to say one is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer and one is compiler. fvck outta here. 

 

As far as Iginla's NHL career goes, when looking at the "meat" portion of his career (basically his overall peak years...in his case, age 22 through 37), he had a hell of a run for 15 seasons.  1158 GP, 527 G, 566 A, 1093 Pts, +95, 0.943 points per game.  37 G and 40 A per 82 GP (30 or more goals 12X, including 40+ twice and 50+ twice).    

You could probably make an argument that this stretch alone in the Dead Puck Era should get in him on the first ballot.  Those are pretty impressive numbers.  

 

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Context matters. They both have a legitimate claim to be considered based on their respective accomplishments. I'd rather not see a player not get in because of loyalty to a specific team/owner that couldn't build around them. The precedent that sets is just lame...is being traded at the deadline, going to a top contender, then winning some major accomplishment should determine a HoF bid?

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12 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Context matters. They both have a legitimate claim to be considered based on their respective accomplishments. I'd rather not see a player not get in because of loyalty to a specific team/owner that couldn't build around them. The precedent that sets is just lame...is being traded at the deadline, going to a top contender, then winning some major accomplishment should determine a HoF bid?

I don’t think anyone should be disputing that Iginla gets in. 

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5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I don’t think anyone should be disputing that Iginla gets in. 

Yeah for sure...that "meat" part of Iginla's career that I put up is worthy all on its own, as far as this era goes.  

Elias' "meat" seasons by comparison are really really good and many players would kill to have had a run like his, but I'm not quite sure it's truly H-O-F worthy.  Certainly not earlier-entry Hall of Fame.  He'll probably have to wait until his late years of eligibility to get in, which I think is fair.

 

I've brought it up before, but the guy who really shouldn't get in down the line is Marleau...nor should Doan, for that matter.  In Marleau's case, there's something to be said for somehow damned near NEVER missing games and managing to play in over 1700 regular season contests, but that alone doesn't make one a Hall-Of-Famer.  Using the same "meat" years metric (excluding early development and later decline years and focusing on the prime seasons), Marleau had a 15-year stretch where he put up 916 points in 1179 games (30 G and 33 A per 82 GP, 0.777 Points Per Game).  That's very solid, no one would dispute that...and Marleau's freakish durability allowed him to compile well over 500 goals and 600 assists for his career...and I have nothing against compilers, because I think there's always something to be said for guys who manage to be good and manage to do it over multiple decades.  But being solid to good and seemingly impervious to injury does not a H-O-Famer make.  Very nice career, and he'll be Mr. Shark for a long long LONG time.  Basically if I'm arguing that Elias is borderline (and I definitely consider him to be a better player than Marleau), then I can't make any case for Marleau.

As far as Doan goes...he shouldn't get any consideration at all.  Not knocking him, but the numbers just aren't there at all.  There's never any shame in being a solid player, and playing 1540 games in the NHL.  Fine career, and he has plenty to be proud of...can't all be superstars or even stars.  But nowhere near H-O-F caliber.    

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26 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Have to agree regarding Doan. 

Can also agree about Marleau, especially where Pierre Turgeon and 1300+ NHL points isn't in. 

The knock against Turgeon has always been the era he played in, and the lack of individual hardware (one Lady Byng) and no Cups.  I think some see his one monster year (58 G and 74 A in 1992-93, which saw a lot of monster years...like Mogilny and Selanne's 76-goal seasons...14 players managed 50+ goals that season) and think that's blowing up his sample a bit.  

Yeah he put up a hell of a lot of points not to get in, but I guess if he ever makes it, then cases start to be made for other Live Puck guys (like Bernie Nicholls), whose numbers look a lot better now than they did back then.  

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38 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The knock against Turgeon has always been the era he played in, and the lack of individual hardware (one Lady Byng) and no Cups.  I think some see his one monster year (58 G and 74 A in 1992-93, which saw a lot of monster years...like Mogilny and Selanne's 76-goal seasons...14 players managed 50+ goals that season) and think that's blowing up his sample a bit.  

Yeah he put up a hell of a lot of points not to get in, but I guess if he ever makes it, then cases start to be made for other Live Puck guys (like Bernie Nicholls), whose numbers look a lot better now than they did back then.  

I don't disagree, I'm just saying if you can argue that Turgeon at 1,320 or whatever it is shouldn't be in, you can make the same argument for Marleau. 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The knock against Turgeon has always been the era he played in, and the lack of individual hardware (one Lady Byng) and no Cups.  I think some see his one monster year (58 G and 74 A in 1992-93, which saw a lot of monster years...like Mogilny and Selanne's 76-goal seasons...14 players managed 50+ goals that season) and think that's blowing up his sample a bit.  

Yeah he put up a hell of a lot of points not to get in, but I guess if he ever makes it, then cases start to be made for other Live Puck guys (like Bernie Nicholls), whose numbers look a lot better now than they did back then.  

I always felt that Turgeon is one of the most underappreciated players of the last 50 years.  It is possible he could have had another 1-2 more monster years if it wasn't for that hit by Hunter in the 93 playoffs as he was never the same again.  While he probably would have been slowed a little by the Dead Puck era moving in by the mid to late 90's, I still think he would have had better numbers.

He also had that monster year with Steve Thomas and Derek King on his wings.  Not exactly ssnipers like LaFontaine had with Mogilny up in Buffalo that season.

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8 hours ago, Nicomo said:

Yep. I wrote them a letter years ago (before I canceled my subscription) calling them out on it. Think it might have been after a certain cover story about Marty being one of the greats, “but please don’t let his team win another Stanley” or some such bs. Three guesses on their main reason why...

As far as Elias being a “compiler” GTFOH with that sh!t. He’s one of the most underrated players of 00’s. If he played on a league darling franchise he would have been a big star. 

Oh lord you totally pulled a Karen and wanted to speak with the manager there lolol 

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22 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

yeah you have to be willingly biased to not see Iginla as a no-brainer. He did everything. Amazing leader, he scored big goals, he produced, he fought, he did it all. 

Definition of a hockey player. 

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

Oh lord you totally pulled a Karen and wanted to speak with the manager there lolol 

They literally had a letters section for fans to write in with their thoughts/comments...

I wasn’t complaining about my Starbucks order being messed up. :P

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9 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The knock against Turgeon has always been the era he played in, and the lack of individual hardware (one Lady Byng) and no Cups.  I think some see his one monster year (58 G and 74 A in 1992-93, which saw a lot of monster years...like Mogilny and Selanne's 76-goal seasons...14 players managed 50+ goals that season) and think that's blowing up his sample a bit.  

Yeah he put up a hell of a lot of points not to get in, but I guess if he ever makes it, then cases start to be made for other Live Puck guys (like Bernie Nicholls), whose numbers look a lot better now than they did back then.  

I'm big on Pierre Turgeon getting in the Hall (I've mentioned it before in this thread) because he was a supreme talent who produced. He was great in Buffalo and on Long Island and very good in St. Louis. He passes the "eye test," too, know what I mean? Great offensive player.

I think Daniel Alfredsson is a Hall of Famer, too. Elias was such a terrific two-way player, but I think he falls a bit short. Just a bit. We all know how good he was.

Iginla, what can you say? A premier power forward of his time. I think he was better than Brendan Shanahan.

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2 hours ago, Jerrydevil said:

Tomorrow (the 25 year anniversary of the Cup clinching win over Detroit), MSG Plus is airing all 4 clinching series games from the 1995 playoffs.

That Cup-clinching game was half a lifetime ago for me...quite literally.  How did 25 years go by so damned fast?!

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2 hours ago, Jerrydevil said:

I'm big on Pierre Turgeon getting in the Hall (I've mentioned it before in this thread) because he was a supreme talent who produced. He was great in Buffalo and on Long Island and very good in St. Louis. He passes the "eye test," too, know what I mean? Great offensive player.

I think Daniel Alfredsson is a Hall of Famer, too. Elias was such a terrific two-way player, but I think he falls a bit short. Just a bit. We all know how good he was.

Iginla, what can you say? A premier power forward of his time. I think he was better than Brendan Shanahan.

I’m definitely not against the idea of Turgeon getting in at some point.  Sure, he played a nice chunk of his career during Live Puck, but it’s not like tons of guys during that era finished with 1327 points.  He’s 32nd on the all-time list...the only two guys ahead of him who aren’t already enshrined are Jaromir Jagr and Joe Thornton...and both of those guys are obviously shoo-ins once they become eligible.  

Like I said previously, you will probably get some “Then why not Nichols and some other guys?” kinds of arguments...but so be it.  

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jerrydevil said:

I'm Elias was such a terrific two-way player, but I think he falls a bit short. Just a bit. We all know how good he was.

I think this might be part of it. We all see Elias differently than non-Devils fans do. The fan in us thinks he should be in. If we went strictly by numbers, or if he played for another team, we would likely think more critically about him. 

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5 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

That Cup-clinching game was half a lifetime ago for me...quite literally.  How did 25 years go by so damned fast?!

My buddy sent me a picture of him wearing a 92 pens championship shirt he bought on ebay, I told him I still have a 03 finals shirt that fits that i bought at the parade. that one was half a lifetime ago for me. I remember the 95 cup cause I watched the tape the next day, had a sleep over at my friend's for an end of school year party and they only wanted to watch a little of the game. Saw Broten and Federov and then nothing until the next morning

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7 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I’m definitely not against the idea of Turgeon getting in at some point.  Sure, he played a nice chunk of his career during Live Puck, but it’s not like tons of guys during that era finished with 1327 points.  He’s 32nd on the all-time list...the only two guys ahead of him who aren’t already enshrined are Jaromir Jagr and Joe Thornton...and both of those guys are obviously shoo-ins once they become eligible.  

Like I said previously, you will probably get some “Then why not Nichols and some other guys?” kinds of arguments...but so be it. 

 

You will get the "why not Nicholls" arguments, for sure. I think Turgeon was a superior player to Bernie Nicholls, by the way. They both were playmakers first and foremost, but Turgeon was a cut above. I remember his Islander years. He was incredible and was truly that team's superstar.

No championships for Turgeon, and he was injured during the Isles' surprise run in 1993. That, and the fact that there were a lot of great players in the '90s, hurts him. But I just don't see a huge difference between him and, say, Mats Sundin.

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8 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

That Cup-clinching game was half a lifetime ago for me...quite literally.  How did 25 years go by so damned fast?!

You can say THAT again. Happy birthday by the way (the website said you turned 50). I also turn 50 this year.

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Iginla = first ballot HOFer.

I love Elias. Maybe my all-time favorite Devils player. I went out and bought a new Elias jersey when he re-upped with the Devils instead of the Rangers, complete with the captain's C on the shoulder. I have a hard time arguing for his inclusion into the HOF at this point, though. I completely understand the arguments in favor of putting him in (look at the system in which he played, look at the roles he was tasked with handling, etc.) but I just don't think he had enough "dominant" seasons where he popped off the page/screen to make him stick out to non-Devils fans. His age 22 - 37 seasons (which I think someone else pointed out earlier) were .88 points per game, which is excellent given the time period, but he was so very balanced that he doesn't stand out to people as one thing or another: his stats don't scream "goal scorer," or "setup man," but rather, "I can do it all and I'll excel at doing everything in a really damn good way." I don't think that pushes him across the line right now. Perhaps if advanced stats & metrics were/are able to cast his achievements in a different light, this is conversation takes a turn.

It's funny, my gut reaction was, "Alfredsson isn't a HOFer." Then I just went and did the same activity for his stats, and from 23 - 37 he averaged just under a point per game for over a thousand games, and he really was the driving offensive force for the Senators. His lines with Spezza and Hossa/Heatley were so damn dominant at times. I still remember the ass-kicking that line handed out to the Devils at Opening Night at the Prudential Center. Woof. From the '01-'02 season to the '09-'10 season, he was excellent nearly every game. I still don't think of him as a Hall of Fame player, but if he's voted in, I get it. Not as good defensively as Elias (to my recollection, anyway) but he could flat-out score and generate offense. 

Alfredsson would also be the first "true Senator" in the HOF, because right now it's just Hasek as far as OTT players go.

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