Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said: Fairly apparent that kid's parents failed him, and in that way I feel a little bad for him too. No normal child wakes up one day and decides to treat another person like that. I hope for his sake, and for the sake of anyone who has to come in contact with him, he gets some real role models in his life. It's funny, my first thought when reading this was "It's so easy to blame the parents." My neighbor has four kids...the middle two grew up in the same exact environment. One of them (a girl) is a hard-working overachiever who's always managed to stay out of trouble and is a college grad (bioengineering) who has a terrific job and is doing very well. Her brother couldn't be more the opposite...this kid is an endless fvck-up. Lies, steals, thinks he's one-up on everyone, yet is constantly getting caught in his schemes. Couldn't be less motivated, and it's sad, because he's not dumb...he's just lazy as hell. They have tried EVERYTHING with him, and nothing works. He's now 20 and living with them, going to school part-time (and not doing well, mostly because he doesn't turn in assignments, etc)…they are spent. They don't want to throw him out of the house, but they are getting closer to that point. I look at them and wonder, "Maybe there's just no hope for that kid. What else can they do?" Anyway, I'll admit it, if my 12-year-old daughter ever treats someone like Miller did, sometime in the future...man, you can bet I'll feel like my wife and I must have blown it somewhere...whether we did or not...especially since I KNOW we did not ever raise her to treat anyone so horribly...if anything, we've always tried to teach her to stick up for someone who might need help. As a parent, I'd definitely be devastated that my kid could do something like this. I've never heard anything about Miller's parents, so hard to say what they're thinking/feeling...but hard not to imagine that they weren't as appalled by their son's behavior as everyone else was. Edited October 30, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 20 minutes ago, aylbert said: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nhl-arizona-coyotes-draft-pick-mitchell-miller-230809129.html I'm not sure of the situation... a slow taunting stroll; verse a quick skate down the street is very different. As a parent, I could see it as taunting just seeing the kid on the street. The kid is responsible for his actions for sure, but I'm going to circle back and put this on the parents too. He was using racial slurs and taunting when they were in 2nd grade. How was that not corrected? How was that allowed to go on to the point it escalated even further? This isn't "my kid would never" type of Monday morning quarterbacking here... it's a serious problem that should have had him in counseling in 2nd grade... UNLESS the parents are cut from the same cloth and see nothing wrong with it. In which case, poor kid never had a shot. re: the bolded...I hope not, but not like there aren't parents who pass that kind of hatred onto their children. I've been lucky not to know any personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, devlman said: But you did the same thing you accuse people on social media of doing. Getting on a soapbox spreading misinformation without looking at the details that were there for you to see. You’re not encouraging the right thought process, stop patting yourself on the back lol except for at least you admitted you were wrong. I did make a broad comment about how people act on social media. It's still happening and i did catch myself and said i was reactionary and was wrong. I honestly don't know what more you want from me here. Edited October 30, 2020 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 26 minutes ago, Crisis said: Yeah I suppose I have been pretty snarky towards you lately. I'm sure I had a good reason though. totally fair i can be frustrating at times, all good lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevils1214 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 33 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: It's funny, my first thought when reading this was "It's so easy to blame the parents." My neighbor has four kids...the middle two grew up in the same exact environment. One of them (a girl) is a hard-working overachiever who's always managed to stay out of trouble and is a college grad (bioengineering) who has a terrific job and is doing very well. Her brother couldn't be more the opposite...this kid is an endless fvck-up. Lies, steals, thinks he's one-up on everyone, yet is constantly getting caught in his schemes. Couldn't be less motivated, and it's sad, because he's not dumb...he's just lazy as hell. They have tried EVERYTHING with him, and nothing works. He's now 20 and living with them, going to school part-time (and not doing well, mostly because he doesn't turn in assignments, etc)…they are spent. They don't want to throw him out of the house, but they are getting closer to that point. I look at them and wonder, "Maybe there's just no hope for that kid. What else can they do?" Anyway, I'll admit it, if my 12-year-old daughter ever treats someone like Miller did, sometime in the future...man, you can bet I'll feel like my wife and I must have blown it somewhere...whether we did or not...especially since I KNOW we did not ever raise her to treat anyone so horribly...if anything, we've always tried to teach her to stick up for someone who might need help. As a parent, I'd definitely be devastated that my kid could do something like this. I've never heard anything about Miller's parents, so hard to say what they're thinking/feeling...but hard not to imagine that they weren't as appalled by their son's behavior as everyone else was. Everyone's got anecdotes. I've also known plenty of people who have fallen in line with the cycle/upbringing and many who haven't and broke the cycle. Some kids seem to have that ability to want to aspire to be better and others don't but I don't think that is all on them when thats the environment they were raised in. I don't know anymore than you but I think is far more likely you're a product of your environment than, like on your example, just an awful person your parents can't corral. Even then though, I'd think it would at least be possible there might be something more going on(mentally) than just a bad kid that can't get his sh!t together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said: Everyone's got anecdotes. I've also known plenty of people who have fallen in line with the cycle/upbringing and many who haven't and broke the cycle. Some kids seem to have that ability to want to aspire to be better and others don't but I don't think that is all on them when thats the environment they were raised in. I don't know anymore than you but I think is far more likely you're a product of your environment than, like on your example, just an awful person your parents can't corral. Even then though, I'd think it would at least be possible there might be something more going on(mentally) than just a bad kid that can't get his sh!t together. Yeah the bolded can be a factor for sure. And for sure, some kids need outside help that they're simply not getting...and some just have that natural drive, while others need to be pushed (and as we've seen, you can have both examples in the same household). My point was more that I think it's easy to read about a kid doing something horrible and assume it's fully on the parents...and that there's an irony in that I think that could be unfair, because if my daughter ever did something horrible, my first thought would probably be "What did the hell did WE do wrong?" Edited October 30, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans04 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Quote "Dear UND Campus Community, I have been closely monitoring the situation concerning Men’s Hockey student-athlete Mitchell Miller, who was involved in a situation as a youth in 2016. We expect our students to live by our values in the classroom, in the community and when representing the University on the field of play. After much consideration and discussions with Mitchell, the Miller family, our Athletics Director, Bill Chaves, and Coach Brad Berry, I have decided that the best course of action for Mitchell and the University is that he no longer be a member of the UND Men’s Hockey program. Mitchell may remain a student at UND and we will continue to support his future intellectual and interpersonal growth. We wish Mitchell well in whatever path he chooses in his future endeavors. Lastly, I want to thank Coach Berry and Athletics Director Chaves for working with me as we navigated this difficult decision together, and for working with Mitchell and his family. Sincerely, Andrew Armacost, president https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/6740945-Mitchell-Miller-no-longer-a-part-of-UND-hockey-team Removed from the UND hockey team. Edited October 30, 2020 by titans04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: It's funny, my first thought when reading this was "It's so easy to blame the parents." My neighbor has four kids...the middle two grew up in the same exact environment. One of them (a girl) is a hard-working overachiever who's always managed to stay out of trouble and is a college grad (bioengineering) who has a terrific job and is doing very well. Her brother couldn't be more the opposite...this kid is an endless fvck-up. Lies, steals, thinks he's one-up on everyone, yet is constantly getting caught in his schemes. Couldn't be less motivated, and it's sad, because he's not dumb...he's just lazy as hell. They have tried EVERYTHING with him, and nothing works. He's now 20 and living with them, going to school part-time (and not doing well, mostly because he doesn't turn in assignments, etc)…they are spent. They don't want to throw him out of the house, but they are getting closer to that point. I look at them and wonder, "Maybe there's just no hope for that kid. What else can they do?" Anyway, I'll admit it, if my 12-year-old daughter ever treats someone like Miller did, sometime in the future...man, you can bet I'll feel like my wife and I must have blown it somewhere...whether we did or not...especially since I KNOW we did not ever raise her to treat anyone so horribly...if anything, we've always tried to teach her to stick up for someone who might need help. As a parent, I'd definitely be devastated that my kid could do something like this. I've never heard anything about Miller's parents, so hard to say what they're thinking/feeling...but hard not to imagine that they weren't as appalled by their son's behavior as everyone else was. yeah i agree with this, its anecdotal sure but from what i've seen through my entire life... no matter what parents can do it can really go either way. I'm sure we've all seen every single possible scenarios out there leading to different results. At the end of the day it really depends on people's personalities. What's interesting is that i'm adopted and i grew up with amazing parents who did everything they could to support me but i was still a pain in the ass. And i can see where good intentions lead to something positive and i can see where good intentions lead to something negative too and ive seen sh!t parents having kids taking actions and turning great and some just following in their parents footsteps and stay sh!tty.. BUT the kicker is when i met my biological parents and brothers. There's sooooooo many similarities and habits, attitude etc etc that i got 100% genetically, i didn't know these people for like 19 years and still act the same exact way as some of them. It's mindblowing. Like i grew up in a super small redneck town where everyone took drugs, got drunk and drove fourwheelers lol I got along and got "some" of those interest like i loved being in the woods and all. But i never did drugs ever, i dont drink much and i was always interested in different things than the rest, i was super different. Then when i met my biological family, they all had the same interest than me. So again, that's annecdotal sure, but still a proof that it's more than just your environment growing up. And like you said, my biological brothers and I are incredibly similar on some stuff and completely different on other stuff. One of them is really struggling hard and he's constantly getting in trouble, making horrible decisions impacting everyone around him negatively. Like criminally bad decisions. While his brother who grew up in the same household and all is super successful and levelheaded. Edited October 30, 2020 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 18 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: yeah i agree with this, its anecdotal sure but from what i've seen through my entire life... no matter what parents can do it can really go either way. I'm sure we've all seen every single possible scenarios out there leading to different results. At the end of the day it really depends on people's personalities. What's interesting is that i'm adopted and i grew up with amazing parents who did everything they could to support me but i was still a pain in the ass. And i can see where good intentions lead to something positive and i can see where good intentions lead to something negative too and ive seen sh!t parents having kids taking actions and turning great and some just following in their parents footsteps and stay sh!tty.. BUT the kicker is when i met my biological parents and brothers. There's sooooooo many similarities and habits, attitude etc etc that i got 100% genetically, i didn't know these people for like 19 years and still act the same exact way as some of them. It's mindblowing. Like i grew up in a super small redneck town where everyone took drugs, got drunk and drove fourwheelers lol I got along and got "some" of those interest like i loved being in the woods and all. But i never did drugs ever, i dont drink much and i was always interested in different things than the rest, i was super different. Then when i met my biological family, they all had the same interest than me. So again, that's annecdotal sure, but still a proof that it's more than just your environment growing up. And like you said, my biological brothers and I are incredibly similar on some stuff and completely different on other stuff. One of them is really struggling hard and he's constantly getting in trouble, making horrible decisions impacting everyone around him negatively. Like criminally bad decisions. While his brother who grew up in the same household and all is super successful and levelheaded. When I saw that you quoted me, at first I was like "Oh boy..." Glad it was just a civil piggyback onto my post. And yeah, I only grew up with a younger brother (I was definitely far more rebellious in my youth than he was), but some of my friends who had three or more sibs growing up...it was insane how different they could all be (especially on the "goodness" spectrum). On another note, Joey Anderson signs a three-year deal with the Leafs ($750k per year...first two seasons are two-way). Seems like a case of making sure that he'll have some security in uncertain times. I get it...he's 22 years old and could earn $2.25 million over the next three seasons. Lots of guys that age would kill to have that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, SterioDesign said: Well i'm going to specify that im not defending the kid here, putting that aside and just going deeper based on the actual legal term "assault" pointing out that it has a wide range of possibilities, some of which are not THAT bad. “an assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another.” So from what ive been told, it can range from throwing a bottle at someone and missing... or swinging at them with an axe and missing. Big difference there. If you do make contact with them and harm the person then it's battery. So like shoving someone at the bar, getting in fights. Or hell even many sports incidents like slashing someone could technically be assault and battery. You actually just said earlier you did get in fights when you were younger, you literally could have been prosecuted for assault there. So based on the technical aspect of it and not the reality where most of those things are not brought to court. I could actually quite a few people prosecuted for assault at a young age. I don't know about where you're from, but here when I was growing up, two kids get in a fight, nobody gets prosecuted. One kid beats up an otherwise innocent disabled kid, they probably do. Nor does anyone get prosecuted for throwing a bottle at someone and missing. If you are getting prosecuted, you did something really bad, there's evidence of it, and the prosecutor thinks there's enough to convict you. So prosecution does imply that it was a more serious/higher level than typical high school nonsense, which was my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: Anyway, I'll admit it, if my 12-year-old daughter ever treats someone like Miller did, sometime in the future...man, you can bet I'll feel like my wife and I must have blown it somewhere...whether we did or not...especially since I KNOW we did not ever raise her to treat anyone so horribly...if anything, we've always tried to teach her to stick up for someone who might need help. As a parent, I'd definitely be devastated that my kid could do something like this. I've never heard anything about Miller's parents, so hard to say what they're thinking/feeling...but hard not to imagine that they weren't as appalled by their son's behavior as everyone else was. Listen, 12 year olds are not always nice to each other. They make fun of each other, stop talking to each other, talk about each other behind their backs, etc. And, I am sorry to say, it gets WAY worse at 13. Kids don't always treat each other right. Beating up a disabled kid and making him lick piss covered candy is a different level. That's the issue I'm having with it. This isn't just a kid who said the N-Word once on social media and was otherwise a good kid. He's a sociopath. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: Listen, 12 year olds are not always nice to each other. They make fun of each other, stop talking to each other, talk about each other behind their backs, etc. And, I am sorry to say, it gets WAY worse at 13. Kids don't always treat each other right. Beating up a disabled kid and making him lick piss covered candy is a different level. That's the issue I'm having with it. This isn't just a kid who said the N-Word once on social media and was otherwise a good kid. He's a sociopath. My daughter had another girl bully her here and there (same one). And yeah, a couple of her friends have not been nice to her at times, to say the least. Kids can definitely be brutal to each other, and they have more outlets than ever to be cruel. Yeah, we'll see if Miller can actually be redeemed, or if he is indeed a sociopath incapable of real change. The level of what he did is just so "WTF?!" that you wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: I don't know about where you're from, but here when I was growing up, two kids get in a fight, nobody gets prosecuted. One kid beats up an otherwise innocent disabled kid, they probably do. Nor does anyone get prosecuted for throwing a bottle at someone and missing. If you are getting prosecuted, you did something really bad, there's evidence of it, and the prosecutor thinks there's enough to convict you. So prosecution does imply that it was a more serious/higher level than typical high school nonsense, which was my point. Well i was not arguing against your point. I was just adding to it saying that technically it can still be misleading too and we should still look into details and not straight up assume the worst. We've all seen people suing people over ridiculous things. There's thousands of cases out there. Off the top of my head the father of 2 who caught one of the kid trespassing in his yard at night and kept him in his house until the cops came. Well the kids parents charged him with endangering the welfare of a child and second-degree harassment. Now who's wrong here? The kids WERE there illegally... but then did he tackled him down and held a gun to his head? lol it's never clear enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans04 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevils1214 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: Yeah the bolded can be a factor for sure. And for sure, some kids need outside help that they're simply not getting...and some just have that natural drive, while others need to be pushed (and as we've seen, you can have both examples in the same household). My point was more that I think it's easy to read about a kid doing something horrible and assume it's fully on the parents...and that there's an irony in that I think that could be unfair, because if my daughter ever did something horrible, my first thought would probably be "What did the hell did WE do wrong?" I understand. Like Fitz said, the level of fvcked up the things kid did were beyond the realm of the average kid on kid bullying. You don't raise a kid for 18 years and not see some signs of that level of malice.That's obviously assuming there wasn't some sort of abuse he may have been a target of that he's emulating or something like that. Again, speculation on my part but at the very least I can't help but think the parents were neglegent by not getting him help or complicit in some other way. Many times people who abuse others, especially without remorse, may have been victims themselves. I've seen a decent amount of hate and wishing harm/death on him and that rubs me wrong. Not only is it hypocritical to the anti-bullying sentiments being tossed around, but it's entirely possible this kid has needed help for a long time. This is a sad situation all around where eveyone likely needs some help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, SterioDesign said: Well i was not arguing against your point. I was just adding to it saying that technically it can still be misleading too and we should still look into details and not straight up assume the worst. We've all seen people suing people over ridiculous things. There's thousands of cases out there. Off the top of my head the father of 2 who caught one of the kid trespassing in his yard at night and kept him in his house until the cops came. Well the kids parents charged him with endangering the welfare of a child and second-degree harassment. Now who's wrong here? The kids WERE there illegally... but then did he tackled him down and held a gun to his head? lol it's never clear enough Thats great. But in this case, it’s 100% clear that Miller is a huge douche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satans Hockey Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 3 hours ago, titans04 said: So dumb. You're more likely to get Covid during a faceoff than a body check. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guadana Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 49 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said: So dumb. You're more likely to get Covid during a faceoff than a body check. They need to change faceoffs to the basketball ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: Thats great. But in this case, it’s 100% clear that Miller is a huge douche. Yes but i was not addressing this case. I specified from the get go i was not talking about the kid and was putting that story aside. Just focusing on the technicality of the term itself and it's possible range. ratra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, SterioDesign said: Yes but i was not addressing this case. I specified from the get go i was not talking about the kid and was putting that story aside. Just focusing on the technicality of the term itself and it's possible range. ratra You were trying to dig yourself out of a hole you dug. It’s called “deflecting”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagknife Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 This is from the magistrate when he sentenced Miller and his associate at the end of the trial: Quote "Mitchell, I'm not sure you still get it," he said in the courtroom. "I don't think you like being where you are. But I still don't think you've put yourself in the shoes of not just the one victim but numerous victims. No one should come to school and feel humiliated or intimidated. "If this is what you do in school, I wonder what you do outside of school. You're supposed to be on your best behavior in school. So if this is an example of your best behavior, I wonder what your worst behavior is. I don't have a sense of real remorse. But I do feel that you feel sorry for yourself." Source: https://cqrcengage.com/cfchildren/app/document/13312880?0 My take: you send a letter to 31 teams but haven’t even apologized to the kid/young adult? Grow the fvck up already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfitz804 said: You were trying to dig yourself out of a hole you dug. It’s called “deflecting”. wtv i explained my stance like 4 times in details. if you still want to be an a$$hole here so be it. Edited October 31, 2020 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, SterioDesign said: wtv i explained my stance like 4 times in details. if you still want to be an a$$hole here so be it. I didn’t say a word about your explanation. You and I aren’t talking about any of that. You said something out of ignorance and without having done the most basic research and then you retracted it, in your way anyway. What you and I are talking about is how you just thought arguing semantics about what I said about pleading guilty to assault at 14 would stop everyone else from pointing out how much of a hypocrite you are. It’s fine, you can think whatever you like. I stand by what I said. This wasn’t a simple case of a kid being stupid. When kids are just stupid, they don’t wind up getting prosecuted for it. The ones who do are typically engaging in an extra special kind of ignorance or stupidity, or something worse. Miller was the second one. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylbert Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Officially kicked from UND team - can stay at school. I’m mixed on that... nothing new came out, just bigger spotlight on him actions. https://www.tsn.ca/former-arizona-coyotes-prospect-mitchell-miller-no-longer-a-part-of-und-hockey-team-1.1545808 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans04 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) Karma in my book. Yes they knew about it, now the heat is more than they bargained for so they're choosing to walk away (team wise) which they did. It's their choice to make and they made it. Enjoy your education which I assume call me crazy he will walk away from in this case and they will be done with him altogether. There's some things that are just way over the line and to top it off when you show no remorse well..... wtf Arizona was thinking is truly beyond me, a 4th round pick I believe has something in the 12-15% range of ever playing 150 NHL games in their careers yet they went there with this kid. Brilliant. I'm guessing he may find a plug job in the ECHL at some point making 375 a week if all goes well from here on out or head overseas Hell maybe he can even get a summer job cleaning urinals making the same $ as he will in the coast. When it comes to overseas I'm not up to speed on their level of desire for these kind of "athletes" Edited October 31, 2020 by titans04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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