2021 Around The League Thread

[NJDfan1711]

I'm assuming they've been wearing them all season and I'm just now seeing it, but holy crap are the gold helmets that the Vegas players are wearing so god-awful. It looks like some cheap gimmick you'd see in a video game. Reminds me of NBA Jam when the players were "on fire" or hearing up.  Those aren't their permanent home helmets, are they?!

Nice tribute by the league to Marleau for breaking the record tonight - he looked a little emotional.  Also, maybe it was just the camera angle, but Gary Bettman did not look very good at all. His face looked pretty sunken in and he's really showing his age. 

10 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Patrick Marleau is about to pass Gordie Howe for all-time games played in NHL history.

I had an exhausting day and was on the road for 6 hours today, but I purposely tried to stay up to watch the opening moments of this game just to see a bit of history. Pretty cool moment. 

[eldon]

The Stars looked like they were wearing space suits tonight. And they blended in with the ice, so horrible.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

4 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I'm assuming they've been wearing them all season and I'm just now seeing it, but holy crap are the gold helmets that the Vegas players are wearing so god-awful. It looks like some cheap gimmick you'd see in a video game. Reminds me of NBA Jam when the players were "on fire" or hearing up.  Those aren't their permanent home helmets, are they?!

Nice tribute by the league to Marleau for breaking the record tonight - he looked a little emotional.  Also, maybe it was just the camera angle, but Gary Bettman did not look very good at all. His face looked pretty sunken in and he's really showing his age. 

I had an exhausting day and was on the road for 6 hours today, but I purposely tried to stay up to watch the opening moments of this game just to see a bit of history. Pretty cool moment. 

The Vegas helmets would look so much better if they were matt. The level of shineyness is just so unnecessary. 

43 minutes ago, eldon said:

The Stars looked like they were wearing space suits tonight. And they blended in with the ice, so horrible.

Who though that this was a good idea?  I guess it doesn't affect the team at an on ice level because of the background, but it can't be easy. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah I’ve been tracking Marleau for a while now, as far as that record goes.  Hard to believe that the moment finally came.  Of course Howe also played 419 games in the WHL, which is kinda nuts

Marleau was obviously freakishly durable.  I’m guessing he retires after this season...he’s a shell of himself at this point...you can make the argument that he hung on too long (probably in pursuit of the record), but still an impressive accomplishment.  I can’t really think of him as a legit Hall of Famer though.  He did put up 1012 points in 1339 GP from 2001-2018...those were his best seasons...if he’s going to get in, I would guess it would be because of that stretch, plus breaking the all-time GP record.  He’s never won a trophy and wasn’t even a perennial All-Star.  

[Crisis]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah I’ve been tracking Marleau for a while now, as far as that record goes.  Hard to believe that the moment finally came.  Of course Howe also played 419 games in the WHL, which is kinda nuts

Marleau was obviously freakishly durable.  I’m guessing he retires after this season...he’s a shell of himself at this point...you can make the argument that he hung on too long (probably in pursuit of the record), but still an impressive accomplishment.  I can’t really think of him as a legit Hall of Famer though.  He did put up 1012 points in 1339 GP from 2001-2018...those were his best seasons...if he’s going to get in, I would guess it would be because of that stretch, plus breaking the all-time GP record.  He’s never won a trophy and wasn’t even a perennial All-Star.  

I absolutely think he gets in.  Continually getting contracts and playing in that many games is incredible.  No one has ever done that before.  And he scored 500+g/1000+pts.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

13 minutes ago, Crisis said:

I absolutely think he gets in.  Continually getting contracts and playing in that many games is incredible.  No one has ever done that before.  And he scored 500+g/1000+pts.

To be clear, I have NOTHING against compilers...to me, to compile means that you had to stick around for a very long time, and had to have a lot of good (key word being "good" as opposed to "very good" or "great") years to accumulate those numbers.

That being said, being somewhere between good and very good for a long chunk of time does not make a Hall Of Famer.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a good player, or that many other players wouldn't kill to have had a career like Marleau's...saying someone isn't a Hall Of Famer doesn't demean his accomplishments.  He had a fine fine career.  

Even his peak years (2001-2018) fall just a little short for me...he averaged 62 points per 82 GP for that time frame.  Does that scream "Hall Of Fame"?  

Also, Pierre Turgeon had over 500 goals and 800 assists in FAR less games...played in a more offensive era of course, but now you can make a compelling argument for him to get in.  I'm guessing this can be done for others who didn't need 1768 games to put up their numbers, and haven't gotten in.  Again, not knocking Marleau, but outside of having been incredibly durable and able to pile up milestone numbers strictly by playing forever and never missing games...is there anything else about him that really stands out that much?  No personal trophies, no championships.  Hell, I'd put Elias in before I'd put Marleau in...and Elias is borderline to me.      

[mfitz804]

Marleau has 566 career goals and 630 career assists. And the longevity record. He’s getting in. 

Find me another 566 goal scorer not in the Hall. I don’t know if there is another one. 

Pierre Turgeon (who did not have 566 goals but did play way less games) should also be in. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by mfitz804

[eaglejelly]

If you set the record for most NHL games played, that in itself  should put you in the HoF. Just my opinion

[Crisis]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

To be clear, I have NOTHING against compilers...to me, to compile means that you had to stick around for a very long time, and had to have a lot of good (key word being "good" as opposed to "very good" or "great") years to accumulate those numbers.

That being said, being somewhere between good and very good for a long chunk of time does not make a Hall Of Famer.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a good player, or that many other players wouldn't kill to have had a career like Marleau's...saying someone isn't a Hall Of Famer doesn't demean his accomplishments.  He had a fine fine career.  

Even his peak years (2001-2018) fall just a little short for me...he averaged 62 points per 82 GP for that time frame.  Does that scream "Hall Of Fame"?  

Also, Pierre Turgeon had over 500 goals and 800 assists in FAR less games...played in a more offensive era of course, but now you can make a compelling argument for him to get in.  I'm guessing this can be done for others who didn't need 1768 games to put up their numbers, and haven't gotten in.  Again, not knocking Marleau, but outside of having been incredibly durable and able to pile up milestone numbers strictly by playing forever and never missing games...is there anything else about him that really stands out that much?  No personal trophies, no championships.  Hell, I'd put Elias in before I'd put Marleau in...and Elias is borderline to me.      

I think you're nitpicking his scoring.  His numbers aren't amazing but I don't think he is that far out of the point conversation.  But that isn't why he is getting in.  He played more games than anyone else in the league in over 100 years.  His durability numbers are pretty spectacular.  From ages 30-40, 10 season, he didn't miss one game.  And he before that, he missed 31 games since his draft year.  You really don't think that is Hall of Fame worthy playing ability?

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

[Devil Dan 56]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

To be clear, I have NOTHING against compilers...to me, to compile means that you had to stick around for a very long time, and had to have a lot of good (key word being "good" as opposed to "very good" or "great") years to accumulate those numbers.

That being said, being somewhere between good and very good for a long chunk of time does not make a Hall Of Famer.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a good player, or that many other players wouldn't kill to have had a career like Marleau's...saying someone isn't a Hall Of Famer doesn't demean his accomplishments.  He had a fine fine career.  

Even his peak years (2001-2018) fall just a little short for me...he averaged 62 points per 82 GP for that time frame.  Does that scream "Hall Of Fame"?  

Also, Pierre Turgeon had over 500 goals and 800 assists in FAR less games...played in a more offensive era of course, but now you can make a compelling argument for him to get in.  I'm guessing this can be done for others who didn't need 1768 games to put up their numbers, and haven't gotten in.  Again, not knocking Marleau, but outside of having been incredibly durable and able to pile up milestone numbers strictly by playing forever and never missing games...is there anything else about him that really stands out that much?  No personal trophies, no championships.  Hell, I'd put Elias in before I'd put Marleau in...and Elias is borderline to me.      

While I get the point you're making, how many points per game or compiling or any of that is irrelevant. At the end of the day there is no way the HOF or the league is gonna leave someone who broke a Howe record out of the Hall. 

 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

13 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Marleau has 566 career goals and 630 career assists. And the longevity record. He’s getting in. 

Find me another 566 goal scorer not in the Hall. I don’t know if there is another one. 

Pierre Turgeon (who did not have 566 goals but did play way less games) should also be in. 

Again, he had to play more games than everyone else to put up those numbers...in most cases, a lot more games.  

NHL All-Time Goals Leaders (quanthockey.com)

5 minutes ago, Crisis said:

I think you're nitpicking his scoring.  His numbers aren't amazing but I don't think he is that far out of the point conversation.  But that isn't why he is getting in.  He played more games than anyone else in the league in over 100 years.  His durability numbers are pretty spectacular.  From ages 30-40, 10 season, he didn't miss one game.  And he before that, he missed 31 games since his draft year.  You really don't think that is Hall of Fame worthy playing ability?

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

I've pointed that out a bunch of times...how the guy never ever missed a game in his 30s.  It's a remarkable feat.  But does that make him Hall Of Fame worthy on its own?  Does compiling your way into "milestone" numbers like 500+ G make you a Hall Of Famer?  

Look at the list in the link I provided, and compare his PPG with everyone else in the Top 50 for goals scored, and total points.  The only guy he really compares with (who also isn't in the HOF and likely won't ever be) is Pat Verbeek, who averaged 61.2 points per 82 GP for his career.  Marleau is at 55.5 points per 82 GP for his.  Everyone else on the list was considerably more productive, given the number of games that they all played.  And guys like Roenick, Turgeon, Tkachuk and Verbeek (who all topped 500 G) aren't in (and not saying that they should be, but once a guy like Marleau gets in, then you can start making cases for them).  

I just don't feel like playing in more games than anyone else should trump all else, if you weren't really a Hall Of Famer otherwise.  To be clear, Marleau had a terrific career...I'm not knocking him...you can have a terrific career and still not get into the HOF.  Playing more games than anyone else in the NHL is a special feat.  Doesn't mean he was a truly special player otherwise (apart from being so durable).     

4 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

While I get the point you're making, how many points per game or compiling or any of that is irrelevant. At the end of the day there is no way the HOF or the league is gonna leave someone who broke a Howe record out of the Hall. 

It will be interesting to see how heavily the voters weigh the GP record.  We'll find out in time.

[mfitz804]

59 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Again, he had to play more games than everyone else to put up those numbers...in most cases, a lot more games.  

NHL All-Time Goals Leaders (quanthockey.com)

I've pointed that out a bunch of times...how the guy never ever missed a game in his 30s.  It's a remarkable feat.  But does that make him Hall Of Fame worthy on its own?  Does compiling your way into "milestone" numbers like 500+ G make you a Hall Of Famer?  

So your argument is that he was only the 23rd highest goal scorer in the history of the game because he also was good enough and healthy enough to stick around in the league and play 1700+ games, which is something only 5 players in the history of the game have ever done? That's a pretty weak argument. 

Do I think 500+ goals should get you into the Hall? Maybe not. 23rd highest goal total in the history of the game? Yeah, I think that should be good enough. 

[Devil Dan 56]

That's pretty funny

[mfitz804]

I just looked up the four guys we traded at the deadline, thus far no points and +1 for Vatanen, a goal for Plams, a goal for Travis, and Kulikov has yet to play, I assume due to quarantine. 

I hadn’t been paying attention so I was curious. 

 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

34 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

So your argument is that he was only the 23rd highest goal scorer in the history of the game because he also was good enough and healthy enough to stick around in the league and play 1700+ games, which is something only 5 players in the history of the game have ever done? That's a pretty weak argument. 

Do I think 500+ goals should get you into the Hall? Maybe not. 23rd highest goal total in the history of the game? Yeah, I think that should be good enough. 

So you're basically in favor of uber-compilers getting in, regardless of whether they ever truly played like Hall-Of-Famers or not.  Doesn't matter how you get to your final numbers, or if it takes you several seasons' worth of more games to get them...just get there.  You're definitely not alone in taking that stance, obviously.  I'll give you that Marleau is a different case because he played in SO many games (this isn't, say, a Shane Doan situation), and more than anyone else...for him to even garner HOF consideration, I think he HAD to break Howe's record.  But the issue I have with that is if he had finished, say, one game behind Howe all time...so now two more games of a guy who clearly has very little left (probably should have called it a career) is enough to put him over?  Because he broke a particular record, in an otherwise good but clearly not great career? 

Just because he did an amazing thing in playing more games doesn't automatically put him on a similar level to others who made the 1700+ GP club.  Everyone else who managed that feat had 1798 points or more.  What's funny about it is Jagr probably wishes he hadn't left and come back...he would've slayed Howe's record AND would not have broken it on fumes...Jagr managed to play 342 regular season games from his Age 41 season on.  He could've made all of this moot...but he didn't.  

Admittedly I've always thought compilers made for interesting debate material...is being merely somewhere between good and very good for a long time enough to get a player into the Hall Of Fame?  Should it be?  Are we starting to better appreciate the steady-for-a-long-time guy as much as the beast who dominates for 10 years or less?  I do think compilers are becoming more respected...especially since so many better talents can't stay healthy or see their abilities fall off a cliff at a relatively young age.   

[mfitz804]

My thinking is more that we’re discussing two things, one that only 22 people in history have exceeded Marleau, and one that only 4 have. To me, that is Hall worthy. 

I have a problem with the whole concept of “compilers”, after all, as an individual player, getting as many goals and assists as you can is kind of what the game is all about .

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

21 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

My thinking is more that we’re discussing two things, one that only 22 people in history have exceeded Marleau, and one that only 4 have. To me, that is Hall worthy. 

I have a problem with the whole concept of “compilers”, after all, as an individual player, getting as many goals and assists as you can is kind of what the game is all about .

Sure, but in general there's rates of piling up those numbers that are considered more Hall-worthy than others...you know the difference between putting up 1100 points or so in about 1000 GP as opposed to 1500 GP.  Taking over 1750 games to accumulate less than 1200 points?  And never really being that much of a standout player (he made the Top 10 list in goals scored all of twice)?  I'll give him kudos for being mostly consistently good for a VERY long time...but he's put up 67 points in his last 193 GP.  Only 30 in his last 111 GP.  He's limped to this record, as far as his performance goes.  I'm thinking a number of players would've called it quits if they had declined that much, record be damned.

Like I've said, curious to see how the voters see it.  Obviously in San Jose I'll expect them to clamor heavily for him to get in.  Not sure about everyone else.  Right now I'm sure there's as much momentum for him going in as there's ever been, due to the record he just broke, but once the fervor from that dies down and people really start examining the numbers outside of GP, it will become less of the slamdunk that it is in some fans' eyes at the moment.

If he does get in, like I said in an earlier post, I think some other cases of guys not getting in will need to be re-examined.  I'd put Pierre Turgeon at the top of that list...he needed 1078 games to put up the same total of points that Marleau has to date.  Not that points are every last thing, and a good chunk of Turgeon's most productive years came during Live Puck, but there's really nothing that should keep him from getting in if Marleau is enshrined.  Check out Tkachuk and Roenick's numbers too...from a goalie standpoint, maybe Curtis Joseph should get another look?  Another guy who didn't get much hardware (did win a King Clancy trophy), but played a long ass time and was also solidly good (and due to longevity is on an number of "All-Time" lists for goalies).  

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Sure, but in general there's rates of piling up those numbers that are considered more Hall-worthy than others...you know the difference between putting up 1100 points or so in about 1000 GP as opposed to 1500 GP.  Taking over 1750 games to accumulate less than 1200 points?  And never really being that much of a standout player (he made the Top 10 list in goals scored all of twice)?  I'll give him kudos for being mostly consistently good for a VERY long time...but he's put up 67 points in his last 193 GP.  Only 30 in his last 111 GP.  He's limped to this record, as far as his performance goes.  I'm thinking a number of players would've called it quits if they had declined that much, record be damned.

Like I've said, curious to see how the voters see it.  Obviously in San Jose I'll expect them to clamor heavily for him to get in.  Not sure about everyone else.  Right now I'm sure there's as much momentum for him going in as there's ever been, due to the record he just broke, but once the fervor from that dies down and people really start examining the numbers outside of GP, it will become less of the slamdunk that it is in some fans' eyes at the moment.

If he does get in, like I said in an earlier post, I think some other cases of guys not getting in will need to be re-examined.  I'd put Pierre Turgeon at the top of that list...he needed 1078 games to put up the same total of points that Marleau has to date.  Not that points are every last thing, and a good chunk of Turgeon's most productive years came during Live Puck, but there's really nothing that should keep him from getting in if Marleau is enshrined.  Check out Tkachuk and Roenick's numbers too...from a goalie standpoint, maybe Curtis Joseph should get another look?  Another guy who didn't get much hardware (did win a King Clancy trophy), but played a long ass time and was also solidly good (and due to longevity is on an number of "All-Time" lists for goalies).  

All of those guys seem like they should be in to me. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

14 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

All of those guys seem like they should be in to me. 

Here's the 500+ clubbers who currently aren't in (I didn't count Jagr or Ovechkin, as both are obviously going to sail right in...we'll see with Marleau):

Tkachuk - 538 (1201 GP)

Verbeek - 522 (1424 GP)

Turgeon - 515 (1294 GP)

Roenick - 513 (1363 GP)

Bondra - 503 (1081 GP)

Going off the top of my head but I think the knock on Turgeon was that he fattened up big-time in some seasons, making his overall numbers more impressive than they were (still damned good though, regardless of how he got there).  Roenick is just considered to be an a$$hole, though his numbers are impressive.  Bondra was considered kind of one-dimensional (but was pretty damned good at scoring).  Verbeek didn't have great rate numbers for a guy who played most of his career during Live Puck.  Not sure why Tkachuk isn't in...538 goals is a hell of lot given the number of GP.

 

[Crisis]

It's 👏 not 👏 just 👏 about 👏 points 👏

They're just a bonus in his case.

He played a million games and no one has ever done that before.  That's insane.  I think the guy that plays longer than that should also get in.

[mfitz804]

7 minutes ago, Crisis said:

It's 👏 not 👏 just 👏 about 👏 points 👏

They're just a bonus in his case.

He played a million games and no one has ever done that before.  That's insane.  I think the guy that plays longer than that should also get in.

Well if you feel that way, surely also being the 23rd overall highest goal scorer also bodes well for him, no?

[Crisis]

26 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Well if you feel that way, surely also being the 23rd overall highest goal scorer also bodes well for him, no?

100%

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 hours ago, Crisis said:

It's 👏 not 👏 just 👏 about 👏 points 👏

They're just a bonus in his case.

He played a million games and no one has ever done that before.  That's insane.  I think the guy that plays longer than that should also get in.

Other players have made it to the 1700+ mark...it’s a select club, but he’s not on some island by himself.  It’s great that he broke the record, but let’s not make it sound like Marty at 691 wins with the next highest guy way behind behind him.

And as far as the HOF goes, let’s not just make it all about games played either, and act like nothing else matters.  Glamour numbers (and the number of games it takes to build them up) do play a role in who gets in.  

[mfitz804]

14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Other players have made it to the 1700+ mark...it’s a select club, but he’s not on some island by himself.  It’s great that he broke the record, but let’s not make it sound like Marty at 691 wins with the next highest guy way behind behind him.

And as far as the HOF goes, let’s not just make it all about games played either, and act like nothing else matters.  Glamour numbers (and the number of games it takes to build them up) do play a role in who gets in.  

There’s 5 guys on that island in the history of hockey. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

There’s 5 guys on that island in the history of hockey. 

I said it was a select club.  But Crisis said that no one’s ever done what Marleau’s done.  To use his description, Marleau’s not the only guy to have played “a million games”.  Crisis made it sound like no one else was close.  That’s not accurate.