2021 New York Mets season thread

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

One side note, regarding Once Upon A Time In Queens…for some reason, they mentioned Calvin Schiraldi as the Mets’ primary fifth starter in 1985, but he wasn’t (made only four starts), and only made 10 appearances that season (he was largely terrible).  The real fifth starter to emerge that year was Rick Aguilera…and Ojeda was more brought in as a potential upgrade over Ed Lynch.  But shows like this often get a couple of things wrong.

Re:  Schiraldi, you can tell the perception that he’s soft really gets to him, even now.  But I’ve read plenty that his Met teammates thought of him as this annoying dweeb who was just easily beaten and didn’t fit in.  Supposedly they loved seeing him on the mound during the World Series.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Re:  Ojeda, that was legit…he wound up missing much of 1987 due to ulnar nerve damage in his pitching elbow.  Gotta think what he went through in 1986 was related.

And yeah, lots of emotion from a number of players…really was a shame that they didn’t get a second shot in 1987 relatively intact…but you had Gooden’s drug suspension, Carter’s decline beginning…even if Knight and Mitchell had stuck around, who knows what would’ve happened?

There was a lefty reliever who came with McReynolds, who was even more wrong for New York…a guy named Gene Walter.  I remember him because he was that classic awkward lefty, and because in his first appearance, he walked the bases loaded on 12 pitches, then blew up.  Total disaster here.

EDIT:  the bases loaded game was actually his sixth as a Met (had to look it up), and he was a little better than I remember….he just missed so much time due to injury, and was only here a couple of seasons.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDevs4978]

11 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

One side note, regarding Once Upon A Time In Queens…for some reason, they mentioned Calvin Schiraldi as the Mets’ primary fifth starter in 1985, but he wasn’t (made only four starts), and only made 10 appearances that season (he was largely terrible).  The real fifth starter to emerge that year was Rick Aguilera…and Ojeda was more brought in as a potential upgrade over Ed Lynch.  But shows like this often get a couple of things wrong.

Re:  Schiraldi, you can tell the perception that he’s soft really gets to him, even now.  But I’ve read plenty that his Met teammates thought of him as this annoying dweeb who was just easily beaten and didn’t fit in.  Supposedly they loved seeing him on the mound during the World Series.

The irony is most of what I remember from ‘85 and ‘86 came from reading Keith’s If At First journal/book from those two seasons. I actually still have my old paper copy as ratty as it is, kind of want to either get a better print version or a digital one but it’s out of print afaik.

From the book I did actually know some of Keith’s dad issues, the whole story of him being in the clubhouse during the WS rally and stuff like that (though hearing him regret doing that was new). All I remember reading about Schiraldi as a Met was him getting tattooed in the ‘85 26-7 loss to the Phillies.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

SI ran a story about Keith’s very complicated relationship with his father (think it was in 86 or 87).  Yeah lots of dad issues there for sure.  

[NJDevs4978]

And while Keith can get old man yelling at the clouds about the modern game it’s still a pretty worthwhile point that arguably the biggest AB of the season outside of the tenth inning of the WS was the Dykstra PH triple off Knepper. And considering Davey was actually an early proponent of what became analytics he still knew enough to know you gotta go on feel too. Ironic timing to be reminded of this days after Rojas pinch hit Mazieka instead of JDD because of handedness.

The doc also reminded me why I’ll always stan for Davey. Yeah his laissez faire attitude towards the team’s off field escapades probably didn’t help anyone in the long run, but for the ‘84-86 period he was the right guy at the right time, and even after that he’d always win 90 games a year wherever he was but that wound up being his only WS too.

Edited September 16, 2021 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah Davey was 100% the right guy for those 84-86 teams…I do think he eventually became a bit of a fat cat though.  But there’s blame to go around for sure…starting with Cashen making a LOT of iffy deals, once the Mets had reached the top of the mountain.  What’s kinda funny is that due to the Mets taking definitive steps in 84, 85, and 86, just how god-awful the Foster signing really was gets overlooked.  It was an expensive signing for that time.  Perlman’s book goes into some detail about Foster’s time with the Mets…the only real friend he had was Ray Knight, who said that Foster was often misunderstood.  But the rest of his Met last teammates couldn’t wait to see him go.

['7']

13 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Re:  Ojeda, that was legit…he wound up missing much of 1987 due to ulnar nerve damage in his pitching elbow.  Gotta think what he went through in 1986 was related.

And yeah, lots of emotion from a number of players…really was a shame that they didn’t get a second shot in 1987 relatively intact…but you had Gooden’s drug suspension, Carter’s decline beginning…even if Knight and Mitchell had stuck around, who knows what would’ve happened?

There was a lefty reliever who came with McReynolds, who was even more wrong for New York…a guy named Gene Walter.  I remember him because he was that classic awkward lefty, and because in his first appearance, he walked the bases loaded on 12 pitches, then blew up.  Total disaster here.

EDIT:  the bases loaded game was actually his sixth as a Met (had to look it up), and he was a little better than I remember….he just missed so much time due to injury, and was only here a couple of seasons.

And they still fought back and had the Cards on the ropes in 87...until Terry Pendleton hit it out and buried the Mets that season. Because we were still in the 86 afterglow that moment often gets overlooked as historical Met heartbreaks, but it was pretty bad

[NJDevs4978]

‘87 also gets overlooked because of the Scoscia HR in ‘88 though you could actually make a better argument the Mets win in ‘87 if they make the playoffs (the Giants really would have beat the Mets? The 85 win Twins and their fake crowd noise - please) than in ‘88 against the A’s if they get past the Dodgers 

Edited September 16, 2021 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

26 minutes ago, '7' said:

And they still fought back and had the Cards on the ropes in 87...until Terry Pendleton hit it out and buried the Mets that season. Because we were still in the 86 afterglow that moment often gets overlooked as historical Met heartbreaks, but it was pretty bad

Yeah when you think about what that 87 team went through, it was kinda miraculous that they got as close as they did.  You had 12 pitchers that were used as starters, with only one of them managing to start more than 30+ games (Darling).  Only two other starters managed 25 or more starts (Doc and Fernandez).  Guys like John Mitchell, Terry Leach, and a very raw David Cone all made 13 or more starts that year...and Leach of all people really did a hell of a job for a while (though the metrics suggest he enjoyed some very good fortune in pulling that off).

The Mets really dug themselves a hole by starting off just 44-40 (and 10.5 games back)...losing 6 out of 7 to the Cards in April also set a bad tone early.  The Mets went on a nice tear for a while (40-21 from 7/9 - 9/16), but 10.5 games is so much to make up...they just couldn't stay hot enough for long enough.  They went 8-9 over their final 17 games...simply couldn't sustain that good run.  

Edited September 16, 2021 by Colorado Rockies 1976

['7']

19 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

‘87 also gets overlooked because of the Scoscia HR in ‘88 though you could actually make a better argument the Mets win in ‘87 if they make the playoffs (the Giants really would have beat the Mets? The 85 win Twins and their fake crowd noise - please) than in ‘88 against the A’s if they get past the Dodgers 

Those 80's and early 90s A's teams had a 90s Braves feel to them. Goliaths, consistent, tons of talent and intimidating...but if you pop them in the mouth early on they wilt and die. That Gibson home run wrecked them. Great teams pick themselves off the mat especially so early on in a series...they never really did well in terms of responding to adversity. They either steamroll you (like they did with the 89 Giants) or they just go down meekly.

Teams like the 1990 Reds and 88 Dodgers were poison for them...so you could also make a case the cocky east coast 88 Mets could've brought the best out of Oakland where all the spotlight would've been on us. Less pressure on them

I kind of get the feel the Mets, with just a few slight slight bounces of the ball, could've absolutely legitimately won 3 consecutive WS back then. Granted they got incredibly lucky when they needed to in 86, though that team was historically good, they were unbelievably unlucky in 87 and 88. Even 1990 that team was very close to passing the Pirates in mid to late Septs and winning the NL East

Edited September 16, 2021 by '7'

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, '7' said:

Those 80's and early 90s A's teams had a 90s Braves feel to them. Goliaths, consistent, tons of talent and intimidating...but if you pop them in the mouth early on they wilt and die. That Gibson home run wrecked them. Great teams pick themselves off the mat especially so early on in a series...they never really did well in terms of responding to adversity. They either steamroll you (like they did with the 89 Giants) or they just go down meekly

I kind of get the feel the Mets, with just a few slight slight bounces of the ball, could've absolutely legitimately won 3 consecutive WS back then. Granted they got incredibly lucky when they needed to in 86, though that team was historically good, they were unbelievably unlucky in 87 and 88. Even 1990 that team was very close to passing the Pirates in mid to late Septs and winning the NL East

Those Mets did come up short a lot, really...they only made the playoffs twice, and only reached the World Series the one time.

I had forgotten what a really rotten start the 1990 Mets had gotten off to...just 21-26 (Davey got fired at 20-22), and then they went absolutely nuts for a while under Bud Harrelson...won 27 out of their next 32 games, and were back in business.  Eventually they were 61-41 and were a game up, but only won half of their remaining games...and two five-game losing streaks in September really killed them (they went from being a 1/2 game out to 3 1/2 games out each time).  Then came 1991...they fell completely apart around midseason, after starting 53-38 (they would lose an insane 23 out of 27 games, seemingly out of nowhere, though the signs were there that a "correction" of sorts was coming), and that was the end of being relevant for a while.  

[NJDevs4978]

And for a team that managed to win tight, gut wrenching playoff series in ‘86 they were a bully team when it came to the regular season - got nosed out in close division races in ‘85, ‘87, ‘89 and ‘90 while lapping the field in ‘86 and ‘88

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

The 89 team really wasn't anything special...they were basically a .500 team through the end of July (53-50), had one big burst in August (going 15-4 for one stretch), and went 8-3 in their last 11 games of the year (effectively garbage time) to make their season look better than it really was.  And Viola (clearly a blockbuster acquisition) just seemed kinda meh...look at his numbers as a Met and they weren't bad by any stretch, but something just seemed missing.  Even when he won 20 games and had a terrific 1990, something just never felt right with him.  Felt very much like he was just passing through, especially when he mailed it in during the last half of 1991 (he could not have cared less...he wasn't even trying).  

The 85 team was really friggin' good (that version of Carter was the best the Mets would get, really), but the Cards were just that little bit better.  And one problem at times with the post-86 teams is that they carried themselves like they were the best, but it was other teams finishing ahead of them and doing it quietly.  The 87, 89, and 90 teams really had a way of not getting done when they absolutely had to.  They didn't carry themselves like they were soft, but in ways they kinda were.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDevs4978]

Speaking of Carter why the hell did it take six ballots for him to get in the HOF? I was surprised to see that. Maybe he just hung around too long with too many bad years at the end and people forgot how great he was for a decade.

Edited September 17, 2021 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah those final 6 seasons were rough overall…but should not have taken as long as it did for him to get in.

[NJDevs4978]

Part of me's tempted to wonder if the Billy Beane stuff isn't just reporters retconning after his cameos in the '86 Met series.  But there does seem to be smoke there, things have kind of stagnated for him in Oakland with no real sign of them getting a stadium there and I'm sure he'd like to have at least one shot at winning with an actual major league budget after turning down the Red Sox in '03 because of loyalty and family. 

I wasn't really expecting Theo either way, but I'd be all in for Beane, even given his relationship with Sandy he has enough gravitas to run an organization and not worrying about the owner trying to suss out leaks on Twitter.  They want to make it a Beane-Melvin package deal fine by me, it's a quantum leap up from Sandy/Scott and Rojas.

Edited September 18, 2021 by NJDevs4978

['7']

On 9/16/2021 at 8:29 PM, NJDevs4978 said:

Speaking of Carter why the hell did it take six ballots for him to get in the HOF? I was surprised to see that. Maybe he just hung around too long with too many bad years at the end and people forgot how great he was for a decade.

I don't think he was all that beloved by the media personnel. He was always smiles, gregarious, doing commercials (did that alot in Montreal I hear) basically Mr. Sunshine that could come off as very fake to some 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

9 minutes ago, '7' said:

I don't think he was all that beloved by the media personnel. He was always smiles, gregarious, doing commercials (did that alot in Montreal I hear) basically Mr. Sunshine that could come off as very fake to some 

It was funny...in the "Once Upon A Time" 30 for 30 that just aired, you could really see how his personality could definitely rub some people the wrong way...it DOES come off as some phony act.  Keith made it clear how much Carter's constant sunshiny "Hey where's the camera?" vibe really annoyed him (but since Carter could play and wanted to win, Keith could deal with the rest).  When I saw some of the Carter clips, I could absolutely see what Keith was talking about.  

Don't know if you remember or exactly when it was (pretty sure it was 2008), Carter was basically campaigning for Willie Randolph's job, just before Willie was infamously canned...I remember that Keith DESTROYED Carter on air for that.  Basically said that Carter just coming off like a tone-deaf buffoon in certain situations had happened one time too many.

ESPN actually had a pretty funny article about how bad Carter would've been in a locker room, as a manager, with the whole "Gee whiz!" Christian boy act (they came up with hypothetical conversations between him and guys like Billy Wagner).  

[NJDevs4978]

55 minutes ago, '7' said:

I don't think he was all that beloved by the media personnel. He was always smiles, gregarious, doing commercials (did that alot in Montreal I hear) basically Mr. Sunshine that could come off as very fake to some 

You would think of all people the press would like that though. God knows they probably kept Albert Belle out of the HOF (and made Jim Rice wait a long time) based on them not being Mr. Sunshine with the media.

Edited September 21, 2021 by NJDevs4978

['7']

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 PM, NJDevs4978 said:

You would think of all people the press would like that though. God knows they probably kept Albert Belle out of the HOF (and made Jim Rice wait a long time) based on them not being Mr. Sunshine with the media.

Yea...Belle is a jerk to end all jerks. Maybe one of the most insufferable pro athletes that I have EVER read about. He really must've had some sort of personality disorder

Still looking at his numbers, he is unquestionably...no debate...a Hall of Famer. He also retired at the age of 34, in a bit of a decline but still a feared hitter and RBI man. His last season he hit .280, .342obp 23 home runs 103 rbi's in 141 games. His run between 1991 and 1999 was unreal. 7 seasons of not just 100 rbis, but 110+ rbi's. With astronomical totals mixed in. 152, 148, 129 etc

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

7 minutes ago, '7' said:

Yea...Belle is a jerk to end all jerks. Maybe one of the most insufferable pro athletes that I have EVER read about. He really must've had some sort of personality disorder

Still looking at his numbers, he is unquestionably...no debate...a Hall of Famer. He also retired at the age of 34, in a bit of a decline but still a feared hitter and RBI man. His last season he hit .280, .342obp 23 home runs 103 rbi's in 141 games. His run between 1991 and 1999 was unreal. 7 seasons of not just 100 rbis, but 110+ rbi's. With astronomical totals mixed in. 152, 148, 129 etc

He had to retire due to a degenerative hip condition, more than a real decline.  He was in the middle of a 5-year deal when he called it quits.

He did put up some sick numbers, but from all accounts he was SUCH a d!ck...just a horrible guy, and not just to members of the media.  Still is to this day (he still gets into trouble).  I think writers loved the fact that he didn't play long enough to reach 500 HR or some other milestone numbers, and never won a World Series, even though there's a case to be made for him getting in due to relatively short-term dominance.  His overall numbers (great considering the amount of games he played in...he averaged 40 HR and 130 RBI per 162 GP, not to mention put up a .933 career OPS) at quick-glance come up just short enough for voters to have the excuse they needed not to vote for him...oh, he didn't even hit 400 HR?  Or manage 1300 RBI?

He's an interesting case...can you be a total puke of a human being, but be really fvcking good at your sport, and as result the latter should trump the former?  If he was a different kind of guy or one who had worked extremely hard to become a better person, maybe the vet committee would put him in.  But doesn't seem like he has that in him. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Remind me again why Sandy fvcking Alderson will get to stick around beyond this year?  

[NJDevs4978]

6 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Remind me again why Sandy fvcking Alderson will get to stick around beyond this year?  

He certainly doesn’t deserve to by any metric - especially with the off field fiascoes now attached to all his recent hires - but clearly Cohen likes him and ostensibly he’s only handling the business side of things next year, until nobody wants to come here again to be in Sandy and Steve’s shadow and he winds up ‘reluctantly’ running everything again

[NJDevs4978]

And as much as we all knew (to a certain degree) how phony the Mets' first half was, I didn't see it completely imploding to this extent either.  At least not till recently when I felt they might plummet to one of their 77-78 win seasons, which looks like it's going to happen now.  But hey Javy Baez is going on a great salary stretch drive!

Edited September 23, 2021 by NJDevs4978

[NJDevs4978]

And another thing, fvck this Robbie Cano sh!t too...what the hell good is a third chance gonna do?  He'll either hit .220 off the juice or eventually get popped on the juice though maybe kinda that is what the Mets are hoping for.  That's the only way I could justify them actually bringing back this clown but that could backfire since he might not be stupid enough to juice and just take up a roster spot being hopeless without it.  It's a sunk cost, just be done with it already.

Edited September 23, 2021 by NJDevs4978