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The 2021 Offseason Thread


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47 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

My perception of "weaponizing cap space" is pretty close to SD's definition...you have much more space than other teams, and are in a position to make moves (especially ones that involve spending serious coin) that other teams simply can't...but at some point, it has to actually happen to be called legit weaponizing.  

It’s my own fault for following SD down a rabbit hole, because my own original thought was how I hate the phrase because unless you actually do something, it’s meaningless. Any team that has cap space sufficient to obtain a player is “weaponized” if you follow that definition. So why bother saying that, everyone knows who has cap space. That’s like calling the money in my wallet “weaponized” when we all know I’m probably spending it on sneakers or hockey jerseys. 

Whether or not they use it is the important thing. Having it and not using it, in my opinion, makes calling it “weaponized” even more ridiculous. 

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42 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

My perception of "weaponizing cap space" is pretty close to SD's definition...you have much more space than other teams, and are in a position to make moves (especially ones that involve spending serious coin) that other teams simply can't...but at some point, it has to actually happen to be called legit weaponizing.  I have no issues with the fact that the Devils have largely sat on their cap space so far, because there wasn't much of a core to add to, and Panarin-types weren't coming here anyway.  The time wasn't right yet.  

So far, I haven't seen much "real" weaponizing to date...more like pure stockpiling.  I don't consider bringing in PK truly weaponizing...I consider that more picking up a player because the price seemed like it was cheap at the time, and that's the kind of move that I'm ready to see the Devils move away from.  It's been discussed, and based on the general lack of assets to use in deals since Shero took over, I understand why deals like this one were made, but I don't need to see a declining player paid a fortune by the Devils because it didn't cost much to get him, and his former team relieved beyond words that they were able to wash their hands of a player they clearly no longer were interested in (over)paying.  Nashville probably would've even taken less to get PK off their books...for them, it was never about getting much of a haul for PK.  It was about not having to pay him and deal with his cap hit anymore, and having newfound flexibility to spend on players they really wanted to pay.  Next time the Devils go shopping in this aisle, I want the team on the other end to be stuck trading a guy that really hurts them to deal...to see the Devils truly take advantage of a team that's painted itself into a capped-out corner and is stuck having to make a painful decision.  

If the Devils offer Hamilton top money that not many teams can match, and manage to land him, to me that will represent true weaponizing, for a couple of reasons.  First, it's a way of signaling to the fans (and players) that the Devils are fully back in business, and don't consider themselves to be that far away from being a playoff contender again...why spend all of that money otherwise?  But second, it means the Devils will have actually dug into that cap space by making a move for a player that wasn't considered expendable, relatively cheap to bring in, or someone that his prior team no longer was interested in paying.  The perception that the Devils are a team that top UFAs don't want to play for will take a huge hit, in the best way possible.

In the end, I still think the weaponizing will happen through retaining every kid that's deemed crucial to the core, without having to make any rough deals just to stay under the cap.  Like I've said, if I see unnecessary haggling or a young player dealt for picks to keep the payroll down just because...then my days of defending the owners are done.

Anyway, if the next couple of offseasons lead to :  1) signing Hamilton or trading for Jones and then signing him to a sizable extension, 2) signing Coleman to a mild overpayment, then 3) extending the kids deemed essential to the core who will be due raises in the next few years (boatloads of RFAs coming up this year and next) or trading some of them in a blockbuster deal for a guy that isn't being acquired just because he's cheap to acquire from an asset standpoint, and suddenly the Devils are a hell of a lot closer to the cap ceiling, then I'll say that the Devils truly weaponized their space.  Obviously this is just one way to get there, but if in two seasons I see nothing but more "didn't cost much" deals, stockpiled cap space, and players sent out who should've been kept but the Devils chose not to pony up...I'm gonna be pissed. 

Well when the Caps traded Mojo and Vegas traded Goose. They didn't want to do it. That's pretty much what you're describing. 

As for PK, the cost was cheap because we had the cap space to take him, that's weaponizing to me. We used the fact that we had the space to take his full salary in order to get him cheaper in assets for us. Our cap space and not many other team having that space was crucial to that trade.

Also the whole way the team has been ran in the last few years is just part of that IMO. We know we were not going to be contenders, we had a lot of kids coming up, they could have went out and signed a bunch of NHLers to fill our bottom 6 at least. But no they really went with the youngest team possible to see what the kids had, what was coming, that way you have a cheaper roster and cap flexibility if something come along. Why pay more just to pay more if you're still not going to be a contender anyway? Not a single mid range UFA from the last few years were putting us in the playoffs. Plus you never know when things can go your way and having too many players can cockblock potential moves. Plus with the expansion draft coming, it made sense to keep a ton of guys on their ELC that couldn't get picked. And having all that cap space when teams may be forced to trade players so they dont lose them for nothing in to Seattle or cause the cap is not going up. That's all part of keeping your cap low for countless reasons. It's a long game. And there's not many ways for us to get on the right side of a deal getting a player without that cap advantage. Cause we don't have thaaat many assets to trade and we're not a very sexy destination. So anything that can boost our assets in a trade is by definition weaponizing IMO

 

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7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Good deal for Nathan, I think. I hope Seattle doesn’t reap the benefits of it. 

Me too.

Curious to see if this gets the ball moving on McLeod, Kuokkanen and Sharangovich (also RFA).  

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49 minutes ago, MB3 said:

Yes, I do. The Rangers will be striking for the playoffs in the next few years. Their young core is younger than ours -- but ours is ready for the next step. 

I think the addition of 3 or 4 actual solid NHL players, plus a healthy progression from Jack, Nico, Zacha, Bratt, Sharangovich, and Smith, gets the Devils into the "playoff bubble" next year and solidly in the playoffs the following season. 

I totally agree and will add one thing.  It's not just adding players, it's letting some of the guys we do have slot down to more appropriate roles once those players are added.   How much better does a guy like Severson look when he's not being asked to play on a pair above where he should?    

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8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well when the Caps traded Mojo and Vegas traded Goose. They didn't want to do it. That's pretty much what you're describing. 

As for PK, the cost was cheap because we had the cap space to take him, that's weaponizing to me. We used the fact that we had the space to take his full salary in order to get him cheaper in assets for us. 

Uhh, isn’t that the exact opposite of your objection to what I said? I literally made this argument and you told me I was wrong lol. 

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11 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Uhh, isn’t that the exact opposite of your objection to what I said? I literally made this argument and you told me I was wrong lol. 

i don't see how that's a contradiction to anything i said at all.

It appears like the difference of view on this between you and I is that you see the weaponizing term as the action of using the cap as a weapon and nothing else, so if no such action is really taken then you say it's nothing. And the way i see it is how you structure your team in order to use your cap as a weapon if the opportunity present itself. So it's not just involving "having cap space and that's it". It goes all the way to who you keep on the roster, the contract structure, etc etc it's strategic. We could have signed a bunch of bottom 6 30+ years old and guys like Bastian, McLeod, Boqvist etc etc wouldnt have made the team this year. But we were not contending and we're not a very attractive destination and we're still rebuilding, so having the structure that we have and keeping our cap space open in order to get deals like we did with PK (having to give less assets because our cap space was a benefit to the other team), Mojo and other guys and the biggest opportunity coming this summer, that WHOLE setup is weaponizing our cap IMO.

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38 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well when the Caps traded Mojo and Vegas traded Goose. They didn't want to do it. That's pretty much what you're describing. 

As for PK, the cost was cheap because we had the cap space to take him, that's weaponizing to me. We used the fact that we had the space to take his full salary in order to get him cheaper in assets for us. Our cap space and not many other team having that space was crucial to that trade.

Also the whole way the team has been ran in the last few years is just part of that IMO. We know we were not going to be contenders, we had a lot of kids coming up, they could have went out and signed a bunch of NHLers to fill our bottom 6 at least. But no they really went with the youngest team possible to see what the kids had, what was coming, that way you have a cheaper roster and cap flexibility if something come along. Why pay more just to pay more if you're still not going to be a contender anyway? Not a single mid range UFA from the last few years were putting us in the playoffs. Plus you never know when things can go your way and having too many players can cockblock potential moves. Plus with the expansion draft coming, it made sense to keep a ton of guys on their ELC that couldn't get picked. And having all that cap space when teams may be forced to trade players so they dont lose them for nothing in to Seattle or cause the cap is not going up. That's all part of keeping your cap low for countless reasons. It's a long game. And there's not many ways for us to get on the right side of a deal getting a player without that cap advantage. Cause we don't have thaaat many assets to trade and we're not a very sexy destination. So anything that can boost our assets in a trade is by definition weaponizing IMO

 

If those players were deemed that valuable to the Caps' and Vegas' cores, they're not dealt for picks...those teams find a way to keep those guys, and move others.  Not saying those kinds of deals 100% can't work out (Palms did), just that much of the time, there's a reason those players are made available for what doesn't seem like very much to give up.  Caps and GKs didn't miss a beat without those players.   

Don't agree on PK...Nashville didn't want to pay him for another three years (they knew he was on the decline) and were thrilled to cash in on what remained of PK's name...like I said, wasn't about getting loads of talent back.  It was about finding a team just clueless enough to think that they might be getting the younger version of PK and being willing to take on his entire salary to boot.  His salary obviously hasn't hurt, and I guess you can make the argument that the Devils were in a good position to take a gamble because they had so much room under their cap, but in PK's case, it almost feels like massively overpaying a meh-ish UFA just to spend some money.  That's why it doesn't feel like real weaponizing to me...another way to put it:  I feel like the team in the position to weaponize should be the one to take advantage of a cap-screwed team...in the PK deal, it feels like the Devils were ones taken advantage of.  

Like I said, I don't have any issues with the approach over the past few years, and retaining flexibility/cap room.  And dealing vets off for picks, when appropriate.  I'm not even going to be all that disappointed if Fitz doesn't go on much of a spending spree this offseason, or doesn't make any splashy moves (especially if he firmly believes that he's got a bunch of kids ready to take big step forward next season)...but I'm not the one talking about weaponizing cap space...the Devils are, and they're doing it in a way that makes it sound like bigger moves might be coming (and I agree in that I think not enough of the "asset tree" fruit is ripe enough yet, to get a bigger fish back in a deal).  To me, if they decide that this offseason is the time to go that route, ok, go for it.  But just do it then, instead of hinting at the possibility.         

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16 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

If those players were deemed that valuable to the Caps' and Vegas' cores, they're not dealt for picks...those teams find a way to keep those guys, and move others.  Not saying those kinds of deals 100% can't work out (Palms did), just that much of the time, there's a reason those players are made available for what doesn't seem like very much to give up.  Caps and GKs didn't miss a beat without those players.   

Don't agree on PK...Nashville didn't want to pay him for another three years (they knew he was on the decline) and were thrilled to cash in on what remained of PK's name...like I said, wasn't about getting loads of talent back.  It was about finding a team just clueless enough to think that they might be getting the younger version of PK and being willing to take on his entire salary to boot.  His salary obviously hasn't hurt, and I guess you can make the argument that the Devils were in a good position to take a gamble because they had so much room under their cap, but in PK's case, it almost feels like massively overpaying a meh-ish UFA just to spend some money.  That's why it doesn't feel like real weaponizing to me.

Like I said, I don't have any issues with the approach over the past few years, and retaining flexibility/cap room.  And dealing vets off for picks, when appropriate.  I'm not even going to be all that disappointed if Fitz doesn't go on much of a spending spree this offseason, or doesn't make any splashy moves (especially if he firmly believes that he's got a bunch of kids ready to take big step forward next season)...but I'm not the one talking about weaponizing cap space...the Devils are, and they're doing it in a way that makes it sound like bigger moves might be coming (and I agree in that I think not enough of the "asset tree" fruit is ripe enough yet, to get a bigger fish back in a deal).  To me, if they decide that this offseason is the time to go that route, ok, go for it.  But just do it then, instead of hinting at the possibility.         

well you can't just... "do it" lol that's the problem. Just like you can't just.. sign the top UFA if you want. You need all the pieces falling into place and being in a position to do it.

As for PK, his "trade value" then was higher than what we paid for him. The ONE reason we paid less is because we were one of the only team able to take on his full cap. If there was 15 teams able to fit him, the asking price would have been higher. So the result of that is that we sent less assets than the value of the player... because of our cap space. We had something other teams didn't and Nashville wasn't forced to keep some of his salary. 

And its fine if you don't agree, but again, i appear to be seeing the term the same way the management is and i'm not bothered by it in any way so not sure why i should change my mind on the matter. Like why would i take an angle / mindset towards something that would get me frustrated when there's a very common sense angle that makes it perfectly fine?

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I don't think PK had as much value as you think at the time of the deal...he still had a fortune coming to him for three more years, and his numbers had fallen off considerably in his final season in Nashville as it wore on.  Not that it matters now, but behind the scenes I think that trade was more ownership-driven...mostly because Shero struck me as a guy who always did his homework, and there was enough there with PK that I gotta think Shero wasn't fully sure about bringing him in.

I agree that you can't just will a top UFA into signing with your team simply because you have the money to do it...of course a lot more goes into it...I'm more saying I just don't want to hear the Devils sound like big things are coming, or talking about weaponizing cap space.  They can talk when they actually do that.  

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4 minutes ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

Really hoping this isn't true

 

Yikes:  2021 Player Report Card: Rasmus Ristolainen - Die By The Blade

This would be another "if" kind of deal.  

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13 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I don't think PK had as much value as you think at the time of the deal...he still had a fortune coming to him for three more years, and his numbers had fallen off considerably in his final season in Nashville as it wore on.  Not that it matters now, but behind the scenes I think that trade was more ownership-driven...mostly because Shero struck me as a guy who always did his homework, and there was enough there with PK that I gotta think Shero wasn't fully sure about bringing him in.

I agree that you can't just will a top UFA into signing with your team simply because you have the money to do it...of course a lot more goes into it...I'm more saying I just don't want to hear the Devils sound like big things are coming, or talking about weaponizing cap space.  They can talk when they actually do that.  

Well it goes both ways. Them bringing this up might be cause they are continuously on the receiving end of comments that they don't want to spend and didn't sign any big UFAs and sh!t like that constantly.

And to be clear about PK, I personally knew his value even then and ive been pretty vocal about it lol. But his perceived value around the league was higher, many many people here were thrilled and calling it a steal

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1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Well it goes both ways. Them bringing this up might be cause they are continuously on the receiving end of comments that they don't want to spend and didn't sign any big UFAs and sh!t like that constantly.

i also personally knew his value wasn't as high as perceived around the league. But his perceived value around the league was higher, many many people here were thrilled and calling it a steal

Not going to do them much good if another offseason goes by and they don't spend much (even if I personally won't have much issue with it) and appear to be sitting on a pile of cap space.  They're better off just going with the usual GM speak:  "If there's a deal to be made that can improve our team, we'll always explore it."  

I think you misunderstood...I'm saying that I DON'T think PK's value was perceived as being all that high around the league at all...which I why I think Nashville was pleasantly surprised that the Devils swooped in and took on all of PK's money AND gave them a gaggle of assets (even if by and large no part of that package was much to get excited about).     

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24 minutes ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

Really hoping this isn't true

 

Depending on the return, I'd consider it. First of all for the right side, he can score a lot of points, but also because I think Ristolainen clearly needs a change of scenery and could probably benefit from it. He's been a whipping boy for quite some time now in Buffalo, and at 2 years left at 5.4 mil per, I'd be curious to see what he could do with a fresh start. 

I also feel like the return wouldn't be huge, since his value has been lowered a lot these last few years. Maybe Buffalo even take Johnsson or Merkley straight up for him? 

Anyways, I don't think it would be all that bad. Interesting to think about though. 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

If those players were deemed that valuable to the Caps' and Vegas' cores, they're not dealt for picks...those teams find a way to keep those guys, and move others.  Not saying those kinds of deals 100% can't work out (Palms did), just that much of the time, there's a reason those players are made available for what doesn't seem like very much to give up.  Caps and GKs didn't miss a beat without those players.   

Don't agree on PK...Nashville didn't want to pay him for another three years (they knew he was on the decline) and were thrilled to cash in on what remained of PK's name...like I said, wasn't about getting loads of talent back.  It was about finding a team just clueless enough to think that they might be getting the younger version of PK and being willing to take on his entire salary to boot.  His salary obviously hasn't hurt, and I guess you can make the argument that the Devils were in a good position to take a gamble because they had so much room under their cap, but in PK's case, it almost feels like massively overpaying a meh-ish UFA just to spend some money.  That's why it doesn't feel like real weaponizing to me...another way to put it:  I feel like the team in the position to weaponize should be the one to take advantage of a cap-screwed team...in the PK deal, it feels like the Devils were ones taken advantage of.  

Like I said, I don't have any issues with the approach over the past few years, and retaining flexibility/cap room.  And dealing vets off for picks, when appropriate.  I'm not even going to be all that disappointed if Fitz doesn't go on much of a spending spree this offseason, or doesn't make any splashy moves (especially if he firmly believes that he's got a bunch of kids ready to take big step forward next season)...but I'm not the one talking about weaponizing cap space...the Devils are, and they're doing it in a way that makes it sound like bigger moves might be coming (and I agree in that I think not enough of the "asset tree" fruit is ripe enough yet, to get a bigger fish back in a deal)  To me, if they decide that this offseason is the time to go that route, ok, go for it.  But just do it then, instead of hinting at the possibility.         

FWIW, I don't consider the PK deal as "weaponizing cap space" simply because if the Predators were not interested in signing Duschene they wouldn't have had to trade for him.  This wasn't a case of Nashville trying to re-sign one of their own home-grown guys; they just wanted Duschene over PK.  Well they ended up getting their guy while off-loading a regressing player and getting players and picks in return for dumping said regressing player.  The more you look at it like that the more of a fleece job it is on the Devils.

To me, the "weaponizing cap space" term is thrown around as a marketing gimmick to sell to fans.  Like you said earlier it is to hype up the Devils off-season and unfortunately for us that typically leads to disappointment.

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31 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Not going to do them much good if another offseason goes by and they don't spend much (even if I personally won't have much issue with it) and appear to be sitting on a pile of cap space.  They're better off just going with the usual GM speak:  "If there's a deal to be made that can improve our team, we'll always explore it."  

I think you misunderstood...I'm saying that I DON'T think PK's value was perceived as being all that high around the league at all...which I why I think Nashville was pleasantly surprised that the Devils swooped in and took on all of PK's money AND gave them a gaggle of assets (even if by and large no part of that package was much to get excited about).     

Do you think the Devils will even put in offers to guys like Hamilton?  I have a feeling they won't even kick the tires.

Do you think the Devils will put out bold trade proposals outside the picks/spare parts for other teams crap and call it weaponizing cap space?  I doubt it.

I just feel like every off-season in the past 4-5 years is talk about saving all that cap space for something big someday, but as John Fogerty once sang, someday never comes.

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Cap space means nothing if you can't have a contending team anyway, we're rebuilding and waiting for the right opportunity to make moves that could make us better when the time is right. Signing guys just to sign guys and gap signings is only costing money and taking away time from our young guys we need to develop. If not you're just throwing money out of the window and potentially cock blocking moves that could make you better.

Sabres had 1.2m in cap space this year and finished last in the league. How many fans did you guys see go "well the team is terrible but at least we spent to the cap".

We were in that situation not long ago, no money to spend, a sh!t team and no hope at the horizon. Now we have hope, a decent core and the potential to buy if we can. I'm picking this scenario 10 times out of 10. I also don't think people understand how fast you can get into cap trouble if youre not careful. In a few seasons we have a bunch of guys who will need raises at the same time. 

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49 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Do you think the Devils will even put in offers to guys like Hamilton?  I have a feeling they won't even kick the tires.

Do you think the Devils will put out bold trade proposals outside the picks/spare parts for other teams crap and call it weaponizing cap space?  I doubt it.

I just feel like every off-season in the past 4-5 years is talk about saving all that cap space for something big someday, but as John Fogerty once sang, someday never comes.

Re:  the bolded, I am going to be very disappointed if they go after Risto.  Seriously, fvck that.  I could see it:  the Isles' 2nd-rounder and some whatever middling "prospect" going the other way, for a guy who's a total "if", who by the end of the 2022-23 season we're counting down the days until he's gone...and has as much of a chance as being meh at best as he does of suddenly figuring everything out.  Great, technically it didn't cost much, but enough with that kind of move.  Bringing in Risto is as "same ol same ol" as it gets for me.  

Re:  the past 4-5 years, the Devils had to put together a semblance of a core...there wasn't one...of course, a couple of guys who looked like they could potentially be long-term pieces wound up being moved (Hall and Palms).  Next season, we'll see if the current batch of youth is capable of taking a collective step forward...if they are, but clearly need support, then I'm going to be all over the Devils if Fitz isn't out there at least trying to make a big move or two.  Basically, like I've said, given the kids, I can wait another year, and hopefully watch those kids start to truly come into their own.  I've brought this up, but remember, if those guys all progress and look like legit core pieces going forward, there's going to be a hell of a lot of raises to dole out the next couple of years.  Tons of RFAs, including some that are arb-eligible.  

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46 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Re:  the bolded, I am going to be very disappointed if they go after Risto.  Seriously, fvck that.  I could see it:  the Isles' 2nd-rounder and some whatever middling "prospect" going the other way, for a guy who's a total "if", who by the end of the 2022-23 season we're counting down the days until he's gone...and has as much of a chance as being meh at best as he does of suddenly figuring everything out.  Great, technically it didn't cost much, but enough with that kind of move.  Bringing in Risto is as "same ol same ol" as it gets for me.  

Re:  the past 4-5 years, the Devils had to put together a semblance of a core...there wasn't one...of course, a couple of guys who looked like they could potentially be long-term pieces wound up being moved (Hall and Palms).  Next season, we'll see if the current batch of youth is capable of taking a collective step forward...if they are, but clearly need support, then I'm going to be all over the Devils if Fitz isn't out there at least trying to make a big move or two.  Basically, like I've said, given the kids, I can wait another year, and hopefully watch those kids start to truly come into their own.  I've brought this up, but remember, if those guys all progress and look like legit core pieces going forward, there's going to be a hell of a lot of raises to dole out the next couple of years.  Tons of RFAs, including some that are arb-eligible.  

Unfortunately, a trade for Risto would fit the MO of this team based on the past few years worth of moves.

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