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Trade: Ryan Graves to NJ


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One of the phrases that was used a lot on here last year was "it's men against boys", where the Devils where most certainly the boys. 

This trade will go a way to addressing that. Graves also spent a lot of time on the PK and lord knows we can use help there. 

Its not a blockbuster but it's a solid move. This also makes the need for that 3C position to be filled even more pressing.  

I am hoping there are a few other deals to be had before the expansion draft next week. 

Edited by Chimaira_Devil_#9
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9 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

Honestly, I think the whole “he plays a lot of minutes” things is kind of stupid. Every team has at least one defenseman who “eats a lot of minutes”. I don’t think that it’s as uncommon as people make it out to be.

Subban is the only guy who can play a lot of minutes? No other defenseman on our roster, and no prospect in our system, nobody available by trade, no free agents, only Subban. If he’s gone we don’t know what to do to cover all of those minutes?

I don’t buy any of it. I think that’s just what people say when a guy isn’t really great anymore but still plays a lot. 

 

A million percent agreed. A guy may log a lot of minutes; that doesn't mean that he's handling those minutes well or that someone else on the roster couldn't perform just as well, or better, with that same amount of minutes.  

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3 hours ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

One of the phrases that was used a lot on here last year was "it's men against boys", where the Devils where most certainly the boys. 

This trade will go a way to addressing that. Graves also spent a lot of time on the PK and lord knows we can use help there. 

Its not a blockbuster but it's a solid move. This also makes the need for that 3C position to be filled. 

I am hoping there are a few other deals to be had before the expansion draft next week. 

I think the 3C position is definitely a concern, I don’t believe Maltsev was the answer to that problem but perhaps he could have been in time. 

To me, it’s screaming for Blake Coleman. He seems, to me, to be exactly what we need. Veteran presence without too much mileage, plays his balls off every night, provides some scoring, etc. 

I don’t know if he’ll come back, but girls in Texas have big hair and so did Jersey girls in the 80’s, so playing for the Devils is basically like playing in Dallas. Plus, there’s a Texas Roadhouse restaurant in Old Bridge, so it will be just like Texas BBQ for him. Need I say more??

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On one hand:  yippy, another 2nd-rounder + something middling for someone else's expendable...obviously tons of offseason to go, but it feels like the Devils have tapped this well a LOT in recent seasons...and due to what always feels like a relatively low price, our first reaction is usually positive (and hopeful).  

On the other:  looks like Graves should be a solid pickup, and will help fill a glaring need.  Really hope this works out, because these are EXACTLY the kinds of deals that had a way of not working out for Shero.  I'd say on the surface, this one feels about as good as the deal for MoJo did at the time it was made (I liked it plenty and thought it made tons of sense).  I just REALLY want something to work out for the Devils, for a change.  Fingers crossed on this one.   

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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9 hours ago, Lateralous said:

Severson needs to be slotted properly, so I don't agree that you just give him more minutes. He's a perfectly good 2nd pairing D that constantly gets asked to do too much. 

Smith isn't a factor in the expansion draft discussion due to age, except that I don't think we want him slotting up yet either.   

The names you listed could easily be Helgeson, Gelinas and Urbom in three years.   I would personally rather us keep Subban and aim to improve this year but if sh!t goes south, I think we can get a decent pick for him at the trade deadline when the salary isn't a huge issue.   The other three could easily just waste away.  

I don't necessarily disagree with the first two parts - in a perfect world severson would be on our second line, but I don't think it's the absolute worst idea to put him on the first if need be. Same thing with Smith, sure he's still young, and similar situation ideally he'd be on our second line, but the dude looks like an absolute stud so I have no problem with giving him a ton of minutes and letting him run with it. I'm not saying he's going to be the next Victor Hedman, but a guy like that wasn't exactly sheltered. They gave him a year or two of playing on the top line, and it took a while, as it does for most defenseman, but eventually he turned into a rock solid player. Smith isn't going to get better by playing against the other team's weakest forwards, and Subban certainly isn't going to shut them down either. 

Regarding, the last part, yeah you're absolutely right, and recent history would dictate that we've had a ton of players who ended like those guys, but again I'd much rather try these guys out and fast-track them so to speak, rather than slowly get them acclimated to the NHL only to find out that they're spare parts 5 years down the road instead of 2 or 3 years. 

Agree to disagree though - I suppose we'll see what happens in the next few weeks.   

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23 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I don't necessarily disagree with the first two parts - in a perfect world severson would be on our second line, but I don't think it's the absolute worst idea to put him on the first if need be. Same thing with Smith, sure he's still young, and similar situation ideally he'd be on our second line, but the dude looks like an absolute stud so I have no problem with giving him a ton of minutes and letting him run with it. I'm not saying he's going to be the next Victor Hedman, but a guy like that wasn't exactly sheltered. They gave him a year or two of playing on the top line, and it took a while, as it does for most defenseman, but eventually he turned into a rock solid player. Smith isn't going to get better by playing against the other team's weakest forwards, and Subban certainly isn't going to shut them down either. 

Regarding, the last part, yeah you're absolutely right, and recent history would dictate that we've had a ton of players who ended like those guys, but again I'd much rather try these guys out and fast-track them so to speak, rather than slowly get them acclimated to the NHL only to find out that they're spare parts 5 years down the road instead of 2 or 3 years. 

Agree to disagree though - I suppose we'll see what happens in the next few weeks.   

That fine.  Im coming from the perspective that when I look at other teams who generally suck at developing players, the common denominator is usually that they gave their young guys too much too soon and then they lose their confidence (Buffalo, Edmonton, etc).   If someone on our roster is going to be put out there against the top lines and get the d zone starts, I would rather see a guy like Subban get caved in on that someone who factors into our future.   

At this point we know Severson shouldn't be anywhere near the top pairing, we don't need to see that proven again but he's a good second pairing guy.  Ty Smith and any of our other D prospects that will be coming up are my main concern and I don't want to see any of them get ruined because we threw them to the wolves too soon.           

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40 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

On one hand:  yippy, another 2nd-rounder + something middling for someone else's expendable...obviously tons of offseason to go, but it feels like the Devils have tapped this well a LOT in recent seasons...and due to what always feels like a relatively low price, our first reaction is usually positive (and hopeful).  

On the other:  looks like Graves should be a solid pickup, and will help fill a glaring need.  Really hope this works out, because these are EXACTLY the kinds of deals that had a way of not working out for Shero.  I'd say on the surface, this one feels about as good as the deal for MoJo did at the time it was made (I liked it plenty and thought it made tons of sense).  I just REALLY want something to work out for the Devils, for a change.  Fingers crossed on this one.   

That's my one concern too.  This now either the 6th or 7th 2nd rounder we have traded away in the past 5 or so years.  Some names that we traded away 2nd rounders for include Subban, Gusev, Mueller, Johansson, and Grabner and out of those only one is still a Devil.

Edited by DevsMan84
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Nothing against Fitz, I like him and believe in him, but let me see him make some things happen.

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3 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

That's my one concern too.  This now either the 6th or 7th 2nd rounder we have traded away in the past 5 or so years.  Some names that we traded away 2nd rounders for include Subban, Gusev, Mueller, Johansson, and Grabner and out of those only one is still a Devil.

The ironic part is other than Mueller, I don’t think any of them looked like a bad deal at the time. Even Mueller was not a bad deal, just a reclamation attempt rather than a guy who looked solid. 

And even Mueller, he was a reclamation project rather than what appeared to be a solid player, but still, I didn't hate it. 

Edited by mfitz804
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More info very detailed about Graves: 

I am getting the feeling that most Avs fans are happy to see him go because of errors in defense. He gets blamed a lot. 

 

Here is what this fan said:

First, be careful what you read here. The 'H' in HF apparently stands for hatred, as there seems to be a need here for a villain to beat up, and Graves has pulled that duty quite a bit. On to Graves:

1) This was a business decision, not a talent decision. Graves will be a perfectly serviceable middle pair D for NJ. He just did not fit here, with a pair of Top 4 draft picks taking up a lot of room.
2) Graves does have his negatives. He is infuriating when it comes to clearly the puck. He is just as infuriating with the constant supply of slappers from the blue line.
3) He is excellent on the PK. He's long and gives up the body. Our #1 goalie loves Graves, which is probably all you need to know. He is an excellent shot blocker, though I feel this wastes some of his checking talent.
4) He seems coachable. He changed his style when he came here, which was coached. Our coaching is not that good, so one could say that he was taught some bad habits.

I think this is a trade which works for all parties. The Avs were in danger of losing Graves for nothing in the XD. The Avs needed to cut Net Cap Hit. The Avs had a Top 4 D-man stuck in what was a 6D or potentially even 7D slot with all of our depth. For Graves, this is a chance to shine. He played well with Makar last year on the 1st pair. He ought to be a good 2nd pair D at a nice price for NJ - plus a PK1 D-man.

 

IMO this was a business decision by both team. I am not that excited about him being a player that will impact our weak defense, just my opinion, I of course hope I am wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, Brewskies said:

2) Graves does have his negatives. He is infuriating when it comes to clearly the puck. He is just as infuriating with the constant supply of slappers from the blue line.

That sounds like an exact replacement for PK...

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7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

That sounds like an exact replacement for PK...

Agree and cheaper. As you probably know, I am not a big fan of PK's play and what he costs us. He had a nice vacation while making big bucks. He is a nice guy and probably plays an excellent senior role in the locker room. But we need defense badly.

Edited by Brewskies
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56 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

The ironic part is other than Mueller, I don’t think any of them looked like a bad deal at the time. Even Mueller was not a bad deal, just a reclamation attempt rather than a guy who looked solid. 

And even Mueller, he was a reclamation project rather than what appeared to be a solid player, but still, I didn't hate it. 

In a vacuum, the Mueller trade was a reasonable gamble.  However, when you look at the list of trades where we send a 2nd rounder for x player, those tend to blow up in our faces way more than they help us.  I guess Gusev could be considered a little bit of a win since he was one of our most productive players in 19-20 season, but as of now he is not on the team and was scratched by Florida in a bunch of their games.

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53 minutes ago, Brewskies said:


3) He is excellent on the PK. He's long and gives up the body. Our #1 goalie loves Graves, which is probably all you need to know. He is an excellent shot blocker, though I feel this wastes some of his checking talent.

That alone may be worth it for him, considering our PK last season was beyond putrid.

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

That's my one concern too.  This now either the 6th or 7th 2nd rounder we have traded away in the past 5 or so years.  Some names that we traded away 2nd rounders for include Subban, Gusev, Mueller, Johansson, and Grabner and out of those only one is still a Devil.

Out of that list, I'd say Johansson was the absolute no-brainer...he'd just come off his best season and was still pretty young.  Goose was a worthwhile "Why not?" kind of move, though it was fair to wonder how a guy who was playing for a stacked team in a lesser league would play here (both he and Kovy didn't do much, though Goose did show some promise towards the end of his first NHL season).  By virtue of being a former first-rounder, someone was going to take a second-chance flier on Mueller...given the state of the Devils at the time, I understood why the Devils did it.  Grabner seemed like a good move that didn't work out at all...but unfortunately that's how it can go with deadline deals...will that player be able to fit in with entirely new teammates in a very short period of time?  Some guys take right off (see Hall last year), some guys just never figure it out for their new team.  PK I'd say was the most iffy...yeah, technically he didn't cost the Devils too much in assets, but there were enough red flags in his final season with the Preds that it was fair to wonder what version of PK the Devils would get. 

So out of the list, most seemed like solid acquisitions at the time...which makes the fact that none of them have really worked out all the more frustrating.  Hopefully this one ends the trend.

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2 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Out of that list, I'd say Johansson was the absolute no-brainer...he'd just come off his best season and was still pretty young.  Goose was a worthwhile "Why not?" kind of move, though it was fair to wonder how a guy who was playing for a stacked team in a lesser league would play here (both he and Kovy didn't do much, though Goose did show some promise towards the end of his first NHL season).  By virtue of being a former first-rounder, someone was going to take a second-chance flier on Mueller...given the state of the Devils at the time, I understood why the Devils did it.  Grabner seemed like a good move that didn't work out at all...but unfortunately that's how it can go with deadline deals...will that player be able to fit in with entirely new teammates in a very short period of time?  Some guys take right off (see Hall last year), some guys just never figure it out for their new team.  PK I'd say was the most iffy...yeah, technically he didn't cost the Devils too much in assets, but there were enough red flags in his final season with the Preds that it was fair to wonder what version of PK the Devils would get. 

So out of the list, most seemed like solid acquisitions at the time...which makes the fact that none of them have really worked out all the more frustrating.  Hopefully this one ends the trend.

Grabner was such a terrible deal in hindsight. We did a deal with the Rags. Did Grabner have any goals when he was here?

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1 hour ago, Brewskies said:

More info very detailed about Graves: 

I am getting the feeling that most Avs fans are happy to see him go because of errors in defense. He gets blamed a lot. 

 

Here is what this fan said:

First, be careful what you read here. The 'H' in HF apparently stands for hatred, as there seems to be a need here for a villain to beat up, and Graves has pulled that duty quite a bit. On to Graves:

1) This was a business decision, not a talent decision. Graves will be a perfectly serviceable middle pair D for NJ. He just did not fit here, with a pair of Top 4 draft picks taking up a lot of room.
2) Graves does have his negatives. He is infuriating when it comes to clearly the puck. He is just as infuriating with the constant supply of slappers from the blue line.
3) He is excellent on the PK. He's long and gives up the body. Our #1 goalie loves Graves, which is probably all you need to know. He is an excellent shot blocker, though I feel this wastes some of his checking talent.
4) He seems coachable. He changed his style when he came here, which was coached. Our coaching is not that good, so one could say that he was taught some bad habits.

I think this is a trade which works for all parties. The Avs were in danger of losing Graves for nothing in the XD. The Avs needed to cut Net Cap Hit. The Avs had a Top 4 D-man stuck in what was a 6D or potentially even 7D slot with all of our depth. For Graves, this is a chance to shine. He played well with Makar last year on the 1st pair. He ought to be a good 2nd pair D at a nice price for NJ - plus a PK1 D-man.

 

IMO this was a business decision by both team. I am not that excited about him being a player that will impact our weak defense, just my opinion, I of course hope I am wrong. 

 

 

Not that we all aren’t on pins and needles waiting for what your avalanche fan friend said, but a couple comments:

1. for someone who “did not fit” in colorado, he got top-4 minutes every single season he’d been there. He was 4th in ATOI/G for colorado defenseman last year. Your friend acting like he’s going to lose minutes is silly. 

2. I’m not sure how you can read your friends messages and deduce he’s “happy to see him go”, unless there are several messages you aren’t forwarding us. 

3. no sh!t this was a move that was made because of the expansion draft. that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a deal worth making. it’s unlikely a late second round pick would turn into a top-4, first line penalty killer for us. 

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4 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

That's my one concern too.  This now either the 6th or 7th 2nd rounder we have traded away in the past 5 or so years.  Some names that we traded away 2nd rounders for include Subban, Gusev, Mueller, Johansson, and Grabner and out of those only one is still a Devil.

am I missing something or are you already assuming Subban gets selected?

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