What to do with #2?

[slasher72]

52 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

yeah i really don't see them making a desperate move this summer unless they get an absolutely ridiculous offer that they simply cannot refuse.

And im really but really to make that kind of offer for a goalie. They are wayyyyyyyy too inconsistent and unpredictable to gamble this much. We could literally throw 2 first round picks, holtz and Bratt, get a goalie that'd sh!t the bed the next season while another team grab a goalie for a 4th round pick and he's a vezina nominee that year. It's truly that fvcking random for goalies, and too often even if they are great, they suddenly fall off a cliff suddenly

We traded a 9th overall for a goalie. And he fell off a cliff 3 years later. We should know better than this. I don't care how good Schneider was those 2-3 first seasons, we'd all wish we had Bo Harvat instead right now

Had we kept the pick, Lou and Conte probably would have selected Curtis Lazar instead, knowing their track record at the time. 

[mfitz804]

55 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

We traded a 9th overall for a goalie. And he fell off a cliff 3 years later. We should know better than this. I don't care how good Schneider was those 2-3 first seasons, we'd all wish we had Bo Harvat instead right now

Because Schneider got hurt. If he was still here giving us the type of goaltending he was capable of pre-injury, we’d be very happy about that. 

To say “I wish we had Bo Horvat”, we’ll obviously, we’d prefer the guy who stayed healthy and hasn’t been basically in the AHL since he left, other than the one game he came back to beat our asses. 

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, titans04 said:

or we could sit back and continue to play musical chairs just because Schneider didn't work out.  We haven't had a goalie since Marty great years (not even the years on the back end) so eventually the musical chairs plan will hit based on the law of averages? 

What's the other option? Cause EVEN if we trade our 2nd overall pick for a goalie. There's literally no guarantee that it's going to work out and that our musical chair won't continue.

who the hell said "just because Schneider didn't work out? in the last few months i probably gave like 40 examples of how goalies are incredibly inconsistent and unpredictable.

Just last summer. The whole hockey world called the Canes insane for trading Nedeljkovic who just had a .932 season for Bernier (who was a 11th overall pick) and a 3rd... and signing Anderson who was coming off a .895 season instead.

Well what do you know. Anderson is not a .922 goalie and Nedeljkovic is .901

We literally see this exact scenario happening every single season.

So THAT's why im very not comfortable trading a 2nd overall for a goalie. Especially one who hasn't proved anything in the NHL yet. Not because Schneider didn't work out.

Many wants Knight because he's a high rated prospect who was taken 13th. Well there's a goalie who was picked 11th overall potentially available on the market this summer. I'd sort of be more comfortable getting Campbell and having just to pay him... than trading a 2nd overall for a skater... for a player who only plays half a season.

I'm obviously not opposed to get Knight, he could very well turn out amazing. But it's a huge gamble and i'm really not sure i wanna gamble with this.

 

 

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

Because Schneider got hurt. If he was still here giving us the type of goaltending he was capable of pre-injury, we’d be very happy about that. 

To say “I wish we had Bo Horvat”, we’ll obviously, we’d prefer the guy who stayed healthy and hasn’t been basically in the AHL since he left, other than the one game he came back to beat our asses. 

Well of course but i didn't say Bo Horvat because he's healthy and all. It's cause he's a younger guy that would have fit our rebuilt a lot better than Schneider did. If anything Schneider was hurting our rebuild. We might have McDavid without him lol I did agree with the trade at the time and still don't blame Lou for it or think it was a mistake at the time. But fact remains that in hindsight we should have kept our pick

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, slasher72 said:

Had we kept the pick, Lou and Conte probably would have selected Curtis Lazar instead, knowing their track record at the time. 

I think we would have picked Nichushkin

[mfitz804]

Just now, SterioDesign said:

Well of course but i didn't say Bo Horvat because he's healthy and all. It's cause he's a younger guy that would have fit our rebuilt a lot better than Schneider did. If anything Schneider was hurting our rebuild. We might have McDavid without him lol I did agree with the trade at the time and still don't blame Lou for it or think it was a mistake at the time. But fact remains that in hindsight we should have kept our pick

But it’s hindsight; it’s always right. Of course it’s a “fact”, you already know the answer lol. 

Deals don’t always work out. Cory could have been a .925 guy for 10 years if he hadn’t been hurt. It sucks, but we took a shot. 

The whole “we could have had McDavid” thing is completely ridiculous, because you can’t say whether or not we’d have won the lottery. It’s kind of right there in the name “lottery pick”; it is chance. 

[SterioDesign]

16 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

But it’s hindsight; it’s always right. Of course it’s a “fact”, you already know the answer lol. 

Deals don’t always work out. Cory could have been a .925 guy for 10 years if he hadn’t been hurt. It sucks, but we took a shot. 

The whole “we could have had McDavid” thing is completely ridiculous, because you can’t say whether or not we’d have won the lottery. It’s kind of right there in the name “lottery pick”; it is chance. 

I legit don't know where you're going with this or what you're trying to do lol 

I said that at the time i agreed with the trade. I also said that what we know now is obviously in hindsight...

I said "We might have McDavid without him lol" in a sort of "god knows what could have happened in that alternate reality.

Not sure why you frame it as if im sort of unaware of what hindsight is and like i said that we'd have McDavid if it wasn't for Schneider lol ?

And again, Schneider is exhibit like.... 45 of countless examples of goalies situation being unpredictable. Not sure why it's getting picked apart that much. Goalies are historically inconsistent, that's the whole point ive been saying for months. Getting into semantics of one of my examples really doesn't change the narrative

Edited May 12, 2022 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

I’m not trying to do anything. You do seem to be genuinely unaware of what hindsight is. 

And I’m not framing anything, you said it. Are you objecting because you said “might”? There’s probably 50 other ways we might have gotten him as well, but you only mentioned the one, so that’s the one I talked about. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by mfitz804

[SterioDesign]

1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

I’m not trying to do anything. You do seem to be genuinely unaware of what hindsight is. 

Based on what? lol I think you need to read everything again.

I literally said that i agreed with the trade then, didn't blame Lou for it later at all, said it wasn't a mistake. (I always defended him on that move too, even recently on here. Read that again, me, defending Lou saying at the time it was a good move) Then said that in HINDSIGHT it was a bad move, now knowing what we know and how it went. 

How can you possibly read into that that i'm unaware of what hindsight is? I literally described what hindsight is.

I also don't want to take over this thread over dumb semantics like this. If you think this will turn into a conversation just message me in private lol

 

 

 

 

 

[mfitz804]

I typed out a whole reply, but I’m just going to refuse to go any further down the rabbit hole. Love you bro. 

[nessus]

Another reason Slafkovsky seems like a perfect fit (and the most likely choice) for the Devils is that it seems that Fitz has had a hard time finding good forwards with size/physicality. He has compensated for this by loading up on big defensemen: Hamilton, Siegenthaler, Graves, Jaros, Bahl, etc. But this really seems like a priority for the organization, especially when it's PK Subban sticking up for Jack when he is on the receiving end of a dirty hit. 

As others have mentioned, there's really not much grit to our forward group. The talent is starting to pile up, but we see in the playoffs every year, that it can take that Patrick Maroon or Tom Wilson type of player to add that missing dimension. 

Trying not to get too attached...

[Nicomo]

8 minutes ago, nessus said:

As others have mentioned, there's really not much grit to our forward group.

It’s really just Miles Wood (who we sorely missed this season). Maybe Bastian? It definitely needs to be addressed. 

[MadDog2020]

8 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

It’s really just Miles Wood (who we sorely missed this season). Maybe Bastian? It definitely needs to be addressed. 

That is why if there is any chance to acquire a skilled player with a copious amount of fvck you in his game, Fitz needs to make it happen. The guy I want more than anyone would be Matthew Tkachuk; I would move Heaven and earth to bring him here if Calgary would be open whatsoever to moving him (I’m not holding my breath; he’d obviously need to come with a long-term, big money extension as well). Tom Wilson would be the other guy. He’s probably more of a long shot than Tkachuk though. You think Washington wants to play against Wilson five times a season? If they trade him, I doubt it would be here. But players in that mold- that’s what we need to be targeting. 

[SterioDesign]

I'm really liking Slafkovsky's potential. From everything i've seen from him, i like him more by far than i liked Holtz when we drafted him. Not that they have to be compared, but I at least see more potential. Holtz did show some premise in the AHL this year though finally.

I am still slightly worried that the lack of scouting in the last 2 years and the typical "big frame", playing men and doing well at the olympics (which had a bad quality of competition) may have skewed the perception like it did for other big guys in the past. But he appears to be using his body though, compared to Zacha who's big but doesn't play big and physical.

But he also may just be a slow riser. Rantanen also didn't have amazing numbers at his age and look at him now

If we get both and that they both pan out well, watch out. 

[slasher72]

Just saw a dumb rumor that has us trading the 2OA + Blackwood for John Gibson. And there are fans hoping this happens. Fitz couldnt be that stupid. 

[SterioDesign]

19 minutes ago, slasher72 said:

Just saw a dumb rumor that has us trading the 2OA + Blackwood for John Gibson. And there are fans hoping this happens. Fitz couldnt be that stupid. 

yeah that's insanely dumb. Blackwood may very well be better than Gibson at this point too. Adding a 2OA would be terrible

Also there's truly no point trading assets for a guy who's been averaging around .903 for a few season. When there's potentially better options on the market and you dont have to give assets for those guys

Edited May 12, 2022 by SterioDesign

[Guadana]

https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/39WLLb6/jaromir-jagr-juraj-slafkovsky-vyborny-hrac-chcel-som-ho-v-time-potom-som-zistil-ze-ma-17/

Jaromir Jagr on Slafkovsky: Great player. I saw him last year when he played against us (Czech Republic) and I was like: "Who is this player? He plays exactly like me, so strong along the boards. I want him in my team." But then I realized that he's only 17 so I had no chance to get him.

 

Number said nothing. Raymond wasn’t productive player before the draft. Like Rantanen too. Kakko was. Skills, iq and size matters. 
Juraj have great combo, showed it in the olympics where level of tourney was good enough for 17 yo kid at least. Finnish euro team raped every nhl wch team three years ago, the level of motivation is very high and the whole hockey systems fights against each other. Anyway it’s good hockey adult players from the whole Europe and the 17 yo kid. It’s a pretty good tournament for player who will be on the draft.

And Finnish champ too. Where he was productive after OG, when he show himself and coaches start to trust him.  Numbers is a good thing, but numbers didn’t help lafrenier and kakko, but somehow (there is a reason) Raymond and Rantanen are… productive enough. 
Slafkovsky is smart, hard working player with good hands and skating, and he is using his physicality well. It’s a very very rare combo.
 

Trading “him” for a goalie, who could never be good enough to safe the day on the regular basis is stupid move. Even Bob in the good team was bad after a couple of vezinas and high price deal.  I’m not against trading, drafting and signing goalies in the same time, but trading 2nd overall is too much, when we have an opportunity to draft player who exactly fit for the Devils and have sky high potential.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Guadana

[slasher72]

1 hour ago, Guadana said:

https://sport.aktuality.sk/c/39WLLb6/jaromir-jagr-juraj-slafkovsky-vyborny-hrac-chcel-som-ho-v-time-potom-som-zistil-ze-ma-17/

Jaromir Jagr on Slafkovsky: Great player. I saw him last year when he played against us (Czech Republic) and I was like: "Who is this player? He plays exactly like me, so strong along the boards. I want him in my team." But then I realized that he's only 17 so I had no chance to get him.

 

Number said nothing. Raymond wasn’t productive player before the draft. Like Rantanen too. Kakko was. Skills, iq and size matters. 
Juraj have great combo, showed it in the olympics where level of tourney was good enough for 17 yo kid at least. Finnish euro team raped every nhl wch team three years ago, the level of motivation is very high and the whole hockey systems fights against each other. Anyway it’s good hockey adult players from the whole Europe and the 17 yo kid. It’s a pretty good tournament for player who will be on the draft.

And Finnish champ too. Where he was productive after OG, when he show himself and coaches start to trust him.  Numbers is a good thing, but numbers didn’t help lafrenier and kakko, but somehow (there is a reason) Raymond and Rantanen are… productive enough. 
Slafkovsky is smart, hard working player with good hands and skating, and he is using his physicality well. It’s a very very rare combo.
 

Trading “him” for a goalie, who could never be good enough to safe the day on the regular basis is stupid move. Even Bob in the good team was bad after a couple of vezinas and high price deal.  I’m not against trading, drafting and signing goalies in the same time, but trading 2nd overall is too much, when we have an opportunity to draft player who exactly fit for the Devils and have sky high potential.

Yea if Fitz trades this pick for a goalie (Knight, Gibson) he will be on Peter Chiarelli levels of stupid. Draft Slafkovsky. Period. 

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, slasher72 said:

Yea if Fitz trades this pick for a goalie (Knight, Gibson) he will be on Peter Chiarelli levels of stupid. Draft Slafkovsky. Period. 

Obviously those are two different trades (older vs. younger, peaked vs. prospect, etc.), but I’m leaning this way as well. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

56 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Obviously those are two different trades (older vs. younger, peaked vs. prospect, etc.), but I’m leaning this way as well. 

Yeah, upon further thought and reading a number of responses on here, I feel the same.  Giving up a 2OA (with the Devils still having a number of needs, with draftees available who can fill them) is simply too risky in the end, even if I think Knight could have a terrific career. 

@SterioDesign is 100% right, about the general volatility of most goalies these days...of course, it wasn't so long ago that we saw a number of guys who you generally knew what you were going to get from them, especially in terms of durability:  Roy, Hasek, Marty, Luongo, MAF, and Lundqvist (not saying they're all on the same level, though all who aren't already in the HHoF are eventually getting in)...I think that's the "in the back of our heads" measuring stick that we're using.  And that's just six goalies out of many who played over the same period...obviously most don't have careers anywhere near that successful, though some might have successful seasons or groups of seasons here and there...hell, I think if you wind up with a guy who had a career like Rask, you gotta be thrilled.

Sterio has brought up many times how goalies are often year-to-year, and that was even true of Marty to an extent...in a four-year stretch from 1998-99 through 2001-02, he was largely very average, sometimes even less; 1999-00 was a most notable exception (he was good during the regular season), especially during the playoffs, where he was plenty stellar.  He was actually quite shaky for long stretches of 2000-01, and even more during the playoffs that year...if the Devils had gotten the 1999-00 version of Marty, they probably win a second straight Cup without much fuss in 2001.  That four-year stretch of Marty often not being great gets overlooked mostly because they did win a Cup and Marty was absolutely superb when they did, and they did get to a second straight SCF in 2001...and of course, with the support of very good teams, Marty was still piling up wins and still playing constantly.  It also helped that there was no one to really push him during those years...no potential young stud to pivot to...his backups were mostly Terreri (who by that point simply wasn't very good, before he was dealt for Vanbiesbrouck, who was often very good when he played, but clearly wasn't brought in to push Marty), JF Damphousse, Clemmer, and of course VBK.  So it's not like the Devils really had much choice but to fully stick with Marty no matter what...maybe in a different situation, he's trying to hold off some upstart who's looking like he might have a real future, potentially at Marty's expense. 

Of course, it all worked out phenomenally well in the end...Marty's next seven years (including the 2002-03 where he nabbed his first Vezina) were largely excellent...he won all four of his Vezinas during that span, and in six of those seasons appeared in 73+ games per year.  But yeah, even most of the top guys aren't always at their best from year to year.

In the end, the Devils are simply going to have to figure out how to develop a goalie of their own of these days, who hopefully won't cost them more than the pick that they use to select him...who the hell knows, maybe it's Blackwood, and that guy suddenly puts it together and turns in an above-average 2022-23 where he starts 50-55 games and stays healthy.   

[Devil Dan 56]

If this playoffs has shown anything, it’s that goaltending can be insanely unpredictable. Cinco Domingo has a 3-2 series lead on the probable Vezina winner. Carolina got some wins out of a 22 year old rookie in their 3-2 lead. Swayman took the net from Ullmark in Boston. Oettinger has gone save for save with Markstrom. 

I’d like to see Fitz try to get creative finding a goalie that’s stuck on a team with no room for them and then see how Blackwood does healthy and without Nas. Blackwood’s an RFA next offseason so it’ll be an important year for him. 

You have to keep the number 2 pick unless you’re absolutely blown away by an offer

Edited May 12, 2022 by Devil Dan 56

[mfitz804]

4 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

If this playoffs has shown anything, it’s that goaltending can be insanely unpredictable. Cinco Domingo has a 3-2 series lead on the probable Vezina winner. Carolina got some wins out of a 22 year old rookie in their 3-2 lead. Swayman took the net from Ullmark in Boston. Oettinger has gone save for save with Markstrom. 

I’d like to see Fitz try to get creative finding a goalie that’s stuck on a team with no room for them and then see how Blackwood does healthy and without Nas. Blackwood’s an RFA next offseason so it’ll be an important year for him. 

You have to keep the number 2 pick unless you’re absolutely blown away by an offer

This is a good plan. If there is a goalie available, get him and go with the New Guy-Blackwood tandem with Bernier as a 3rd option if he is healthy, or Daws when he’s not. 

Kind of a lot to pay Bernier to not play, but I honestly don’t think he’ll be healthy so it’s probably not going to be an issue. 

[Aitchmack]

23 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

This is a good plan. If there is a goalie available, get him and go with the New Guy-Blackwood tandem with Bernier as a 3rd option if he is healthy, or Daws when he’s not. 

Kind of a lot to pay Bernier to not play, but I honestly don’t think he’ll be healthy so it’s probably not going to be an issue. 

Other teams don't seem to have a problem putting players on LTIR only to have them magically recover when cap space opens up. We should take advantage of it to.

[smelly]

There is no chance that this picked is moved for a goalie. 

Say what you want about Devils management, but they are not stupid enough to repudiate a major windfall and waste an extremely-valuable future asset to address an immediate need.

This pick is an opportunity to obtain an elite talent, for nothing more than an entry-level contract, and that will remain cost-controlled organizational property for multiple years. 
 

This asset is not about next season, and it would be a malpractice for Fitz to “spend” it for the opportunity to pay an older player market rate for fewer years. 
 

Give up the ghost. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by smelly

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

4 minutes ago, smelly said:

There is no chance that this picked is moved for a goalie. 

Say what you want about Devils management, but they are not stupid enough to repudiate a major windfall and waste an extremely-valuable future asset to address an immediate need.

This pick is an opportunity to obtain an elite talent, for nothing more than an entry-level contract, and that will remain cost-controlled organizational property for multiple years. 
 

This asset is not about next season, and it would be a malpractice for Fitz to “spend” it for the opportunity to pay an older player market rate for fewer years. 
 

Give up the ghost. 

Again, I think people were more open-minded to moving the pick for a "right now" kind of asset had it been 5th or 6th overall.  At 2nd overall, it's a much different ballgame...no one's clamoring for a pick that high to be moved for a Fiala-type.

As for a goalie, SD and others made a compelling enough case...they're right, it's too risky...a guy like Knight could wind up having a good enough career that maybe 10 years from now we're wondering "Oh man, what if?" (assuming of course there was even a chance that Knight was ever available at this point), but Devils aren't in the position to take that kind of a chance and have it blow up.

At the same time, at some point, it's gotta become about next season.  Next season, you'll have a 21-year-old Hughes (who's clearly figured out how to play in the NHL), a 23-year-old Hischier, a 24-year-old Bratt (fully expect him to sign long-term), a 29-year-old Hamilton...I know it's still a relatively young team (Mercer, Smith, etc), but next year can't be yet another season over by December.  Hopefully whoever they take with the 2OA is on the Devils in 2-3 years, max.  I'll obviously happily take sooner than that, but trying to be realistic with expectations.