2022 Off-Season thread PT 2

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

He had the same coaching staff last year that he did before.  

Ah you're right i don't know why my mind went back to the year before. Totally my bad.

But he still missed training camp and the first 6 games. So my point still remain that it was normal that he was a bit behind.

[SterioDesign]

4 minutes ago, MB3 said:

if you argue with SD you’re not discussing, you’re bitching. Please keep this in mind and respect his wishes. 

Dude i can "discuss" all day when someone disagree with me. But you anytime someone challenge what you're saying you're falling on the "hindsight" or the "gatekeeping" thing. Or you go straight to your name calling, how many people called you out on that?

Yet you go and respond to other posts the same exact way that makes you bring up those things. Have some self awareness dude. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by SterioDesign

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, MB3 said:

“The 32, 30, 31, and 34 point seasons were the outlier. The single 73 point season reflects his true talent.” 

As long as he stays healthy (and can play 70+ games per year), I think 55+ points going forward is a reasonable expectation.  But yeah, I need to see him to produce at roughly a PPG pace for at least one more season before I could even begin to entertain giving him Nico/Jack type coin.

[MadDog2020]

10 minutes ago, MB3 said:

I like Jesper Bratt. I’m nowhere near as high on him as everyone else (obviously). But the Devils should be exploring every single possible avenue to trade him for another forward if he’s pulling this stuff.

He was playing hardball enough to miss training camp and the beginning of the year coming off of a whopping 32 point season. It’s no surprise he’s the only stick in the mud with a contract this summer. 

I love that he had such a great year last season, but you guys were all ready to say “not trading for Fiala, he’s only had 2 great years in a row” and “don’t sign Johnny, 5 years ago he only had 68 points.” 

Jesper Bratt has (1) season with 70+ points. He has FOUR OTHER SEASONS WITH FEWER THAN THIRTY FIVE. He was out produced by Pavel Zacha two years in a row before last year. Everyone and their mother had a breakout year last year. 

I look at this situation the same way I looked at the Leafs/Nylander situation. If the Devils let a tier-2 piece (a nice piece but clearly a step down organizationally from Jack, Nico and Dougie) rake them over the coals it will set a precedent that is impossible to shake: “Hold out long enough and they’ll give you what you want.” 

Jesper Bratt isn’t an $8m player, he will never be an $8m player and if he is paid to be an $8m player it will be a big step back for the franchise. He’s a shifty little dude who has nice touch and a questionable motor. He’s a perfectly solid top-6 winger. But his retention on this team will not make or break the rebuild UNLESS he is wildly overpaid for having one season in his entire career where he didn’t produce at a replacement level.

You just stated the Devils exact argument for the arbitration hearing.

Edited July 31, 2022 by MadDog2020

[SterioDesign]

7 minutes ago, MB3 said:

do you need a definition for the word hindsight? The fact that you think I’m insulting you makes me think that you do.

When you pick on people for making comments 8 months ago that were later proven to be untrue that is…. I mean, literally go look it up lmao. 

he missed training camp and the first 6 games because he was hard balling the organization after a season where Zacha outplayed and outproduced him. 

Dude do you ever read entire posts? I mean im not surprised you'd be the "listening to reply, not listening to understand" kind of guy. But come on.

Moments ago I straight up explained that BACK THEN i was defending him too, bringing up him missing training camp and 6 games. It has NOTHING to do with hindsight. I didn't stay silent then and only when he turned it around being like "AHHHH SEE YOU GUYS WERE WRONG!". I said all along that he'd turn it around. There's 100% no hindsight

now i assume you'll do your typical disappearing act like you always do when you're proven wrong. I hope you're not under the illusion that we're not aware of that. 

20 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

This has nothing to do with hindsight. I was also saying back then that missing training camp clearly had an impact on him being a bit behind. Plus yeah the puck wasn't going in but i never thought he looked terrible either. I defended him the whole time so stop with that hindsight nonsense.

Edited July 31, 2022 by SterioDesign

[pumpkin cutter]

12 minutes ago, MB3 said:

“The 32, 30, 31, and 34 point seasons were the outlier. The single 73 point season reflects his true talent.” 

he's a 50+pt player. I think his last year was a fluke. Always have seen him as the perfect 2nd line winger for a cup team. basically what we got in palat. 

 

when i said fluke i meant his point total not his play. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by pumpkin cutter

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 hours ago, MadDog2020 said:

I think that’s fair.

If the Devils re-sign him long-term, I can see 5-6 years $6.9 AAV.  Still young enough by the end of the deal to get another nice paycheck, and good money but not quite Nico money.  

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

And yeah if Bratt is a RFA against next year, I’m fine with him being signed to a one-year show me deal.  

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, Puckbuster said:

Well, it’s going to be less than the 8x8 Hughes received, as it should.  Both Nico and Hughes signed team friendly deals, which is why they are able to sign UFAs.  Personally, I think he should be signed to the same money as Nico.  

I think that would be fair, and for an extremely late round pick, a very nice accomplishment. 

[mfitz804]

23 minutes ago, MB3 said:

“The 32, 30, 31, and 34 point seasons were the outlier. The single 73 point season reflects his true talent.” 

I don’t think this is the case, but let’s not talk about it like those were full seasons. One was his rookie year, and the other 3 were 51, 60 and 46 games. 30 points in 46 games is over a 50 point pace (right CR1976?).

So while technically true, his production isn’t properly evaluated by saying “he had less than 35 points for 4 seasons” without mentioning the rest. 

But they certainly were nowhere near 72 points. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

6 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I don’t think this is the case, but let’s not talk about it like those were full seasons. One was his rookie year, and the other 3 were 51, 60 and 46 games. 30 points in 46 games is over a 50 point pace (right CR1976?).

So while technically true, his production isn’t properly evaluated by saying “he had less than 35 points for 4 seasons” without mentioning the rest. 

But they certainly were nowhere near 72 points. 

About 53 points, yeah.

As long he plays 70+ games, I think 55-65 points is a fair expectation from here on out.  

[SterioDesign]

27 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I don’t think this is the case, but let’s not talk about it like those were full seasons. One was his rookie year, and the other 3 were 51, 60 and 46 games. 30 points in 46 games is over a 50 point pace (right CR1976?).

So while technically true, his production isn’t properly evaluated by saying “he had less than 35 points for 4 seasons” without mentioning the rest. 

But they certainly were nowhere near 72 points. 

Yeah that's willingly ignoring crucial context to make a point you're committed to. 

You just can't bring up points totals like this when a guy missed like 30+ games in those seasons lol 

In a full season here's his point pace 

2017-2018 - 39 pts

2018-2019 - 53 pts

2019-2020 - 43 pts

2020-2021 - 53 pts

2021-2022 - 79 pts

 

And it's fair to point out that his PP production hasn't been great through his time here but our PP sucked the whole time too (or at least that's how i remember it)

Edited July 31, 2022 by SterioDesign

[SterioDesign]

All im hoping is that a deal gets announced before arbitration and that we're all like... "oh snap, this is actually really good!" and that we forget about this whole thing like most contract disputes are forgotten

[Crisis]

Quote

"The arbitrator can only award a 1 or 2 year contract. The party that did not elect the arbitration selects the term (if the player selected arbitration, the team selects 1 or 2 year term).  Players that are only 1 year away from being a UFA can only have a 1 year contract awarded."

I think if Bratt's party goes with the 2 year deal, that would walk him into unrestricted free agency.

https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/arbitration

Edited July 31, 2022 by Crisis

[Guadana]

1 hour ago, MB3 said:

I like Jesper Bratt. I’m nowhere near as high on him as everyone else (obviously). But the Devils should be exploring every single possible avenue to trade him for another forward if he’s pulling this stuff.

He was playing hardball enough to miss training camp and the beginning of the year coming off of a whopping 32 point season. It’s no surprise he’s the only stick in the mud with a contract this summer. 

I love that he had such a great year last season, but you guys were all ready to say “not trading for Fiala, he’s only had 2 great years in a row” and “don’t sign Johnny, 5 years ago he only had 68 points.” 

Jesper Bratt has (1) season with 70+ points. He has FOUR OTHER SEASONS WITH FEWER THAN THIRTY FIVE. He was out produced by Pavel Zacha two years in a row before last year. Everyone and their mother had a breakout year last year. 

I look at this situation the same way I looked at the Leafs/Nylander situation. If the Devils let a tier-2 piece (a nice piece but clearly a step down organizationally from Jack, Nico and Dougie) rake them over the coals it will set a precedent that is impossible to shake: “Hold out long enough and they’ll give you what you want.” 

Jesper Bratt isn’t an $8m player, he will never be an $8m player and if he is paid to be an $8m player it will be a big step back for the franchise. He’s a shifty little dude who has nice touch and a questionable motor. He’s a perfectly solid top-6 winger. But his retention on this team will not make or break the rebuild UNLESS he is wildly overpaid for having one season in his entire career where he didn’t produce at a replacement level.

Ahaha. Oh, my God =-D man, you are gold.

[devlman]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

I don’t think this is the case, but let’s not talk about it like those were full seasons. One was his rookie year, and the other 3 were 51, 60 and 46 games. 30 points in 46 games is over a 50 point pace (right CR1976?).

So while technically true, his production isn’t properly evaluated by saying “he had less than 35 points for 4 seasons” without mentioning the rest. 

But they certainly were nowhere near 72 points. 

And additionally, those were his development years. If he was a 28-year old winger then a lot more weight would be put on his preceding years. But for a young player, you evaluate based on his ppg and skill set growth. Last year’s ppg pace could be the breakout. He was our best player last season and no reason to think that was a fluke.

Edited July 31, 2022 by devlman

[pumpkin cutter]

17 minutes ago, Guadana said:

Ahaha. Oh, my God =-D man, you are gold.

Nah I kinda agree with him. Jb is good but he’s no pavel zacha.

[mfitz804]

26 minutes ago, Crisis said:

I think if Bratt's party goes with the 2 year deal, that would walk him into unrestricted free agency.

https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/arbitration

They can’t do that, Bratt elected for arbitration which means the team sets the term. The team will have to select a 1 year term so that he remains an RFA at the time of the next negotiation. 

[Crisis]

8 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

They can’t do that, Bratt elected for arbitration which means the team sets the term. The team will have to select a 1 year term so that he remains an RFA at the time of the next negotiation. 

Got it.  Thought it was club elected but I must be mixing that up with all the attention I was paying to Matt Tkachuk's RFA situation.

[SterioDesign]

43 minutes ago, Guadana said:

Ahaha. Oh, my God =-D man, you are gold.

Yeah.... putting "FOUR OTHER SEASONS WITH FEWER THAN THIRTY FIVE." in caps doesn't make something more relevant to a point lol Especially when it's completely ignoring important context like games played lol Once you put this in consideration he was over 35 pts in all his season, and going above 50 in 2. But yeah........ let's ignore that.

Edited July 31, 2022 by SterioDesign

[Guadana]

23 minutes ago, pumpkin cutter said:

Nah I kinda agree with him. Jb is good but he’s no pavel zacha.

Foolish Fitz traded wrong player.

5 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah.... putting "FOUR OTHER SEASONS WITH FEWER THAN THIRTY FIVE." in caps doesn't make something more legit lol Especially when it's completely ignoring games played lol Once you put this in consideration he was over 35 pts in all his season, and going above 50 in 2. But yeah........ let's ignore that.

I did mention all actual signings of young players with similar cap hit or /and production. Many of them did sign after breakout season. This is how young players works. Bratt signed two years deal to show himself. He did it. 

And he did it without M Tkachuk on his line. Mister Johnsson looked like a solid top 6 player with him on the line. Bratt making everybody better around him. Advanced stats say it, actual stats say it. His stats are pretty clear. And even before his breakout season his ppg was solid enough for his age. He is absolutely deserved 8 mil, especially for his prime years. This is what other teams pay for players like him. 

 

But im happy with MB3 opinions. Its some kind of pepper of the off-season. Its a conflict(as something good). If we would agree with Bratt from the beginning, everything we would say would get something like "wait and see". 

 

[MadDog2020]

8 minutes ago, MB3 said:

I want Bratt on my team. I don’t want a second consecutive drawn out contract dispute and I don’t want the Devils to give into this 40 pound winger after his first ever season producing like a first line player. 

Jesper Bratt is not an $8m player. Look around the league at everyone making 8+ and find me 2 total players under 30 that you wouldn’t take over Bratt. Just two, and then let’s chat. 

Laine. Aho. Tkachuk. Raantanen. Those are $8m players. Jesper Bratt isn’t in that category, period end of sentence.

Again, this is pretty much what the Devils will be arguing Wednesday. Although if Fitz refers to him as a ‘40 pound winger’ during the hearing, some feelings may get hurt 🤣

Edited July 31, 2022 by MadDog2020

[SterioDesign]

44 minutes ago, MB3 said:

In fact I’ll even widen the goalposts. Find me a forward in the history of the NHL that signed for $8+ per year when he has 203-or-fewer career points, and then look me in the eyes and tell me “Jesper Bratt is better than this player.”

If you can’t do that, you can’t argue about some arbitrary list of players with similar production and a similar cap hit.

So what's your projection of Bratt's production this year?

[devlman]

53 minutes ago, MB3 said:

I want Bratt on my team. I don’t want a second consecutive drawn out contract dispute and I don’t want the Devils to give into this 40 pound winger after his first ever season producing like a first line player. 

Jesper Bratt is not an $8m player. Look around the league at everyone making 8+ and find me 2 total players under 30 that you wouldn’t take over Bratt. Just two, and then let’s chat. 

Laine. Aho. Tkachuk. Raantanen. Those are $8m players. Jesper Bratt isn’t in that category, period end of sentence.

Jeff Skinner, OEL, Duchene, Johansen…all signed $8mill+ before the age of 30. I’d take Bratt over those 4.

[Guadana]

1 hour ago, MB3 said:

I want Bratt on my team. I don’t want a second consecutive drawn out contract dispute and I don’t want the Devils to give into this 40 pound winger after his first ever season producing like a first line player. 

Jesper Bratt is not an $8m player. Look around the league at everyone making 8+ and find me 2 total players under 30 that you wouldn’t take over Bratt. Just two, and then let’s chat. 

Laine. Aho. Tkachuk. Raantanen. Those are $8m players. Jesper Bratt isn’t in that category, period end of sentence.

1

 

1 hour ago, MB3 said:

In fact I’ll even widen the goalposts. Find me a forward in the history of the NHL that signed for $8+ per year when he has 203-or-fewer career points, and then look me in the eyes and tell me “Jesper Bratt is better than this player.”

If you can’t do that, you can’t argue about some arbitrary list of players with similar production and a similar cap hit.

 

14 hours ago, Guadana said:

Norris, 8mil*8years, career ppg before sign 0.72 ppg

2020-21	Ottawa Senators	NHL		56	17	18	35
2021-22	Ottawa Senators	NHL		66	35	20	55

B Tkachuk, 7*8.2, 0.63 ppg

2019-20	Ottawa Senators	NHL		71	21	23	44
2020-21	Ottawa Senators	NHL		56	17	19	36

 

Boeser, 6.65*3, 0.7 ppg

2020-21	Vancouver Canucks	NHL		56	23	26	49
2021-22	Vancouver Canucks	NHL		71	23	23	46

Thomas 8,125*8, 0.68 ppg

2020-21	St. Louis Blues	NHL		33	3	9	12
2021-22	St. Louis Blues	NHL		72	20	57	77

Fiala, 7.875*7, 0.675 ppg

2020-21	Minnesota Wild	NHL		50	20	20	40
2021-22	Minnesota Wild	NHL		82	33	52	85

Kempe, 5.5*4, 0.48 ppg

2020-21

Los Angeles Kings

NHL

56

14

15

29

2021-22

Los Angeles Kings

NHL

78

35

19

54

 

Suzuki, 7.875*8, 0.64 ppg

2019-20	Montreal Canadiens	NHL		71	13	28	41
2020-21	Montreal Canadiens	NHL		56	15	26	41

 

 

etc. 

 

Bratt, 0.66 ppg

2020-21	New Jersey Devils	NHL		46	7	23	30
2021-22	New Jersey Devils	NHL		76	26	47	73

 

Some of them are older, some younger, in contract season some scored more but produced less. Some like Boeser can’t skate and carry the line.  Bratt deserved to have 8*8. Or may be even more. 

The most meaningful part is he want to have 3-4 years deal.

Period =-D if you are trying to use "period" word, you should have something under your word. You have nothing. Its ok for casual fan. But let's not argue like you are really... know what are you talking about. Laine, Tkachuk and Rantanen have different salaries. Even Aho have more and signed 5 years deal, not 7-8 years deal. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Guadana