Your New Jersey Devils Regular Season Thread: 2022-2023 Edition

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

45 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

But how could you ever know that? How could we ever know if Jesper is being influenced by the agent, or if he is saying "hell yeah, that's what I hired this nasty motherfvcker for, get me every penny"?

I agree, we have no idea if this will be a case of a pushy agent eventually saying "Jesper, bubby...you don't take $8.5 million a year if they're willing to go up to $9.5 million!  You gotta think of JESPER first pal!", or Jesper saying "I'd like to stay, but after they tried to lowball me the last time, get every last bit out of them this time!"

I can definitely see a scenario though where Fitz sees Bratt's agent at Monday night's game, and thinks to himself "Oh Christ, it's this fvcking guy...guess I'd better go say hello, lest he thinks I just don't wanna deal with him."  Probably not one of Fitz's favorite guys to see sitting across from him, heh heh. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[SterioDesign]

24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

But how could you ever know that? How could we ever know if Jesper is being influenced by the agent, or if he is saying "hell yeah, that's what I hired this nasty motherfvcker for, get me every penny"?

I don't necessarily "know" that. But the combination of... he has a reputation, most agents are like that by defaults and that negotiations has been a pain in the past.

That being said. Fitz has been getting reaaallly good prices on many of our players where we went "oh wow that's it?", so he's able to get it done but he might also be a pain in the ass to get that done. 

[mfitz804]

18 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I can definitely see a scenario though where Fitz sees Bratt's agent at Monday night's game, and thinks to himself "Oh Christ, it's this fvcking guy...guess I'd better go say hello, lest he thinks I just don't wanna deal with him."  Probably not one of Fitz's favorite guys to see sitting across from him, heh heh. 

I kind of had the same feeling lol. 

[Nicomo]

54 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well because he has a reputation and we've seen it happening. It's usually the agent

Same as Don Meehan. So many of his clients held out, missed games and training camp. 

Yeah, some agents are just notoriously harder to deal with than others. In the NFL it’s David Mulugheta. He’s known for wanting to make all his marquee players the absolute highest paid at their positions. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

9 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Yeah, some agents are just notoriously harder to deal with than others. In the NFL it’s David Mulugheta. He’s known for wanting to make all his marquee players the absolute highest paid at their positions. 

And then there's Scott Boras...I get he has a job to do and he has gotten many of clients insane paydays, but man in interviews he just comes off as THE most unlikable douche...even his voice just makes my skin crawl.  

[mfitz804]

42 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Yeah, some agents are just notoriously harder to deal with than others. In the NFL it’s David Mulugheta. He’s known for wanting to make all his marquee players the absolute highest paid at their positions. 

Right, but isn't that why they hire a guy like that?

[Nicomo]

44 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Right, but isn't that why they hire a guy like that?

I kind of doubt even Bratt foresaw being in line to become one of the top paid wingers in the game when he first entered the league as a 6th rounder. I’d think the Swedish connection is probably more likely why Bratt went with that dude. 

*assuming he’s had the same guy the whole time. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Nicomo

[mfitz804]

9 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

I kind of doubt even Bratt foresaw being in line to become one of the top paid wingers in the game when he first entered the league as a 6th rounder. I’d think the Swedish connection is probably more likely why Bratt went with that dude. 

*assuming he’s had the same guy the whole time. 

I am sure that was part of it, but I doubt he hired a guy to take a cut of his salary without knowing anything about the type of agent he is. He plays hardball, if I were a player, I would want that too. But the concept that Jesper is an innocent party being led down a path by his agent is completely made up. 

[SterioDesign]

42 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I am sure that was part of it, but I doubt he hired a guy to take a cut of his salary without knowing anything about the type of agent he is. He plays hardball, if I were a player, I would want that too. But the concept that Jesper is an innocent party being led down a path by his agent is completely made up. 

Persson has 5 clients in the NHL. Here's 4 things i just copy pasted from the internet about his top 3 clients (his other 2 are either ELC or making less than a million)

 

"After missing training camp, Jesper Bratt agreed to a two-year deal with the New Jersey Devils."

"Bratt and the Devils agreed to a one-year, $5.45 million deal that avoided arbitration on Wednesday."

"The Carolina Hurricanes have avoided arbitration with defenseman Gustav Forsling by signing him to a one-year, two-way contract."

"The Buffalo Sabres and goaltender Linus Ullmark avoided arbitration by agreeing to a one-year, $2.6 million contract on Sunday."

 

So when people around the league says he has a reputation and that we see this pattern... i'm not really sure why there's some denial that he's a motherfvcker to deal with. And thats not saying that Bratt doesn't want that fully but those agents tend to care more about the money than what's best for the player's success overall (meaning guiding them to maybe take a slightly smaller deal if it means the team is on will do better, hence making him happy. We see it happening often, hell we saw it happened a few times on this team recently, guys straight up said they took less to help the team). And when there's a pattern like this... its a lot more likely that he's the one driving players to that point and holding out... rather than coincidental that all his players are pushing for that. Thats my opinion, not necessarely facts. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Persson has 5 clients in the NHL. Here's 4 things i just copy pasted from the internet about his top 3 clients (his other 2 are either ELC or making less than a million)

 

"After missing training camp, Jesper Bratt agreed to a two-year deal with the New Jersey Devils."

"Bratt and the Devils agreed to a one-year, $5.45 million deal that avoided arbitration on Wednesday."

"The Carolina Hurricanes have avoided arbitration with defenseman Gustav Forsling by signing him to a one-year, two-way contract."

"The Buffalo Sabres and goaltender Linus Ullmark avoided arbitration by agreeing to a one-year, $2.6 million contract on Sunday."

 

So when people around the league says he has a reputation and that we see this pattern... i'm not really sure why there's some denial that he's a motherfvcker to deal with. And thats not saying that Bratt doesn't want that fully but those agents tend to care more about the money than what's best for the player's success overall (meaning guiding them to maybe take a slightly smaller deal if it means the team is on will do better, hence making him happy. We see it happening often, hell we saw it happened a few times on this team recently, guys straight up said they took less to help the team). And when there's a pattern like this... its a lot more likely that he's the one driving players to that point and holding out... rather than coincidental that all his players are pushing for that. Thats my opinion, not necessarely facts. 

But nobody is saying he’s not a motherfvcker to deal with, I’m saying the concept that he is a motherfvcker and his clients aren’t on board with it is completely made up lol. Do you believe this guy just has a bunch of easily manipulated Swedish clients? I don’t, I think it’s more like “this guy will get me every penny he can, and also he’s Swedish so that’s the guy I want”. 

I don’t know why people are so intent on believing that Jesper isn’t 100% behind this guy getting him the best deal possible, which may even be taking less from NJ than he could get elsewhere, but more than NJ wanted to pay. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by mfitz804

[SterioDesign]

42 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

But nobody is saying he’s not a motherfvcker to deal with, I’m saying the concept that he is a motherfvcker and his clients aren’t on board with it is completely made up lol. Do you believe this guy just has a bunch of easily manipulated Swedish clients? I don’t, I think it’s more like “this guy will get me every penny he can, and also he’s Swedish so that’s the guy I want”. 

I don’t know why people are so intent on believing that Jesper isn’t 100% behind this guy getting him the best deal possible, which may even be taking less from NJ than he could get elsewhere, but more than NJ wanted to pay. 

Because to me, it's a lot more likely to imagine that an agent having ALL his clients being regular NHL players outside of their ELC... going through complicated negotiations... is the common nominator / driving force and influencing that.

Vs believing that this one agent (who just get clients from his country)... happens to randomly get 3 very greedy players willing to push and file for arbitration / miss camp and have expectations that doesnt match what their GM want

Just my opinion. 

But seeing this on top of knowing this agent has a reputation around the league, im not sure whats wrong with assuming this. 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Because to me, it's a lot more likely to imagine that an agent having ALL his clients being regular NHL players outside of their ELC... going through complicated negotiations... is the common nominator / driving force and influencing that.

Vs believing that this one agent (who just get clients from his country)... happens to randomly get 3 very greedy players willing to push and file for arbitration / miss camp.

Just my opinion. 

But seeing this on top of knowing this agent has a reputation around the league, im not sure whats wrong with assuming this. 

 

It’s far more likely to me that he is a Swedish hardass and the Swedish players he represents know this and hire him for that reason. 

Maybe my view is skewed because I negotiate for a living, and I know how hard I am to negotiate with and know my clients are 100% aware of it, down with it, and hire me because of it. 

[SterioDesign]

Just now, mfitz804 said:

It’s far more likely to me that he is a Swedish hardass and the Swedish players he represents know this and hire him for that reason. 

Maybe my view is skewed because I negotiate for a living, and I know how hard I am to negotiate with and know my clients are 100% aware of it, down with it, and hire me because of it. 

Yes, but nobody is arguing that he shouldnt be getting a fair deal or wtv.

But as an agent, you're also an advisor. You're the one that knows the business. The fact that most contracts doesn't need to file for arbitration means that overwhelmly GMs and agents can always reach a fair deal without it, arbitration is pretty rare and players holding out is too. And the fact that he was in a position to sign contracts only a handful of times in his entire agent career and that it ALWAYS made it to that point indicate to me that he may be off in his demand and what he's selling his clients.

I'm not basing my assumptions on absolutely nothing here

[mfitz804]

11 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yes, but nobody is arguing that he shouldnt be getting a fair deal or wtv.

But as an agent, you're also an advisor. You're the one that knows the business. The fact that most contracts doesn't need to file for arbitration means that overwhelmly GMs and agents can always reach a fair deal without it, arbitration is pretty rare and players holding out is too. And the fact that he was in a position to sign contracts only a handful of times in his entire agent career and that it ALWAYS made it to that point indicate to me that he may be off in his demand and what he's selling his clients.

I'm not basing my assumptions on absolutely nothing here

I mean, if you are talking about people avoiding arbitration, all of those quotes state that arbitration was avoided. He just negotiated hard until the end. That could very well just be his style, but to assume he is manipulating all of his clients is a leap that I wouldn’t take. 

[SterioDesign]

8 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I mean, if you are talking about people avoiding arbitration, all of those quotes state that arbitration was avoided. He just negotiated hard until the end. That could very well just be his style, but to assume he is manipulating all of his clients is a leap that I wouldn’t take. 

well saying he "manipulated" his clients is kind of framing it in a weird way.

What i said is that the agent must of been influencing his clients into thinking they were worth more than they were at the time. Its the agent that knows the value and the business side of it. Or else not ALL his negotiations would make it to that point

Edited November 23, 2022 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

well saying he "manipulated" his clients is kind of framing it in a weird way.

What i said is that the agent must of been influencing his clients into thinking they were worth more than they were at the time. Or else not ALL his negotiations would make it to that point

You wouldn’t call that “manipulation”? I think it would be a textbook example. 

And all his negotiations could make it to that point because he is a tough negotiator, it has nothing to do with whether or not his clients are just happy they are getting the best possible deal, or whether they have been duped into it. There is no way to distinguish the two, and no evidence in support of the theory that you are talking about. 

[SterioDesign]

1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

You wouldn’t call that “manipulation”? I think it would be a textbook example. 

And all his negotiations could make it to that point because he is a tough negotiator, it has nothing to do with whether or not his clients are just happy they are getting the best possible deal, or whether they have been duped into it. There is no way to distinguish the two, and no evidence in support of the theory that you are talking about. 

Well manipulation and "duped into it".

It's not like i imagine the agents being some evil a$$hole doing this to fvck everyones lives.

The way i imagine this is more like he's sort of.... not that great at his job, not very in touch with fair value and able to get something done in a normal fashion like most agents do. And he's driving the bus so the players are following his lead.

[mfitz804]

3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well manipulation and "duped into it".

It's not like i imagine the agents being some evil a$$hole doing this to fvck everyones lives.

The way i imagine this is more like he's sort of.... not that great at his job, not very in touch with fair value and able to get something done in a normal fashion like most agents do. And he's driving the bus so the players are following his lead.

I understand what you’re saying, I just believe that it only exists in your mind lol.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

BTW fair share of RR 2.0s here tonight…they look MUCH better personalized, FWIW.

[mfitz804]

15 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

BTW fair share of RR 2.0s here tonight…they look MUCH better personalized, FWIW.

Like a hot pile of sh!t compared to a bucket of diarrhea? 

[jagknife]

47 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Like a hot pile of sh!t compared to a bucket of diarrhea? 

So they increased the fiber in their diet.

sh!t’s still sh!t.

[Nicomo]

I could stare at it all night. 

[Puckbuster]

1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

I could stare at it all night. 

I looked at the standing about 100 times today.  I think I’m going to make it my wallpaper.

[Puckbuster]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:38 PM, SterioDesign said:

Persson has 5 clients in the NHL. Here's 4 things i just copy pasted from the internet about his top 3 clients (his other 2 are either ELC or making less than a million)

 

"After missing training camp, Jesper Bratt agreed to a two-year deal with the New Jersey Devils."

"Bratt and the Devils agreed to a one-year, $5.45 million deal that avoided arbitration on Wednesday."

"The Carolina Hurricanes have avoided arbitration with defenseman Gustav Forsling by signing him to a one-year, two-way contract."

"The Buffalo Sabres and goaltender Linus Ullmark avoided arbitration by agreeing to a one-year, $2.6 million contract on Sunday."

 

So when people around the league says he has a reputation and that we see this pattern... i'm not really sure why there's some denial that he's a motherfvcker to deal with. And thats not saying that Bratt doesn't want that fully but those agents tend to care more about the money than what's best for the player's success overall (meaning guiding them to maybe take a slightly smaller deal if it means the team is on will do better, hence making him happy. We see it happening often, hell we saw it happened a few times on this team recently, guys straight up said they took less to help the team). And when there's a pattern like this... its a lot more likely that he's the one driving players to that point and holding out... rather than coincidental that all his players are pushing for that. Thats my opinion, not necessarely facts. 

I agree, he does have a pattern and the ones that pay for it are his clients.  They miss out on millions for a couple years just to make a couple million later and with another team.  If, Bratt signed a multi year worth 5.5m two seasons ago, he would still be in his prime to earn 10+m for another 7.  Bratt, made a bad choice not signing early like Jack and Nico, both are making millions and are young enough to earn another 7 years worth million.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Puckbuster

[Puckbuster]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

He has not shown any of this at the NHL level yet.  Not in games that count.  He’s either looked concerningly slow or just kinda meh.  Guys like Jack, Nico, Bratt…even though all needed to develop, all at least showed signs of promise of what they could become if they put it all together.  I haven’t seen that from Holtz…doesn’t mean it’s not there, just that he hasn’t had those “Wow look at this kid!” moments in regular season games so far.

Of course it’s small samples and he can’t even buy booze yet, but you seem to want to hand him a spot that’s not really based on him having really earned anything.  The fact is we have no idea if he can thrive at this point in his development.  The Devils obviously have their doubts as far as 2022-23 goes…he’d have gotten more than four games and limited minutes otherwise.  And I still don’t have an issue with this…if anything it’s great that the Devils can be patient with him, and not feel like they have to rush him.  

This being said, the Devils selecting him 7OA wasn’t a reach and he did project to go pretty high, so obviously many scouts and prognosticators saw something there.  We’ll see if the Devils can unearth it within the next couple of years, or at least enough of it that they feel comfortable giving him a long look with the big club.  I’d love to see it happen…there’s nothing better than homegrown kids panning out…growing pains and all.

Simply put, the Devils have the time to develop him.  That is a luxury they have now. I think he will be great one day, but why rush him?  The team is great.  I think it’s ok for Holtz to be in Utica and go through some adversity there.  They sucked the early part of the season , now with Bahl they have a chance to help turn things around.