GDT - Devils @ Sabres 11/25/22 8:00pm MSGSN

[Devil Dan 56]

7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

They can be hung up on the 6th round thing and still offer a long term deal. What if they offered him 3.5 x 8? 

The second part is still 100% in your mind. Bratt IS holding out. The concept that his agent is making him do it is a fallacy. 

Bratt has said he lets his agent handle all of the contract stuff. But yeah I think if Bratt said “get the deal done”, it would be done. The agent is just trying to get the best possible deal and apparently he’s a real SOB to deal with. We got lucky on Jack and Nico. Guess it isn’t going to be 3 in a row. 

[Lateralous]

11 hours ago, devlman said:

Regarding your second point, I don’t see how it’s necessary Severson finishes the season. His reputation still surpasses his actual level to the point where we can do well to trade him and fill his 14 mins with a run of the mill rental. Him and Blackwood can fetch a decent haul.

I guess it’s not “necessary” but he’s still the 5th best defensemen on the team in a sport that requires 6 D to play.  Given our position at the top of the standings, I don’t think you can just move him to gain an asset unless it’s part of a plan to improve the team this year.   

[SterioDesign]

10 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

You asked how they could be hung up on the 6th round thing if they offered him a long term deal. They can be hung up on the 6th round thing by offering a low AAV long term deal. 

That would certainly be Fitz fvcking up, would it not? 

How is that based on where he was drafted and not based on his production up to that point and potential? GMs and agents will generally base negotiations on players productivity, contract status, age and potential.

My question... how is there any indications that him being a 6th round pick had anything to do with anything through negotiations? 

Was there ever anything reported about this or anything? That's why im asking where that claim comes from
 

[MB3]

I imagine fitz offered him a long term deal with an AAV slightly under Nico (in the high 6s) and he and his agent said no. 

But I also imagine myself in bed with Jennifer Lawrence so I’m not going to get into a pissing match over my imagination. 

It has not been made clear whether it’s Jesper’s camp’s fault or Fitzgerald’s fault. For all we know, Tommy might have said to Jesper “look at the young core we’ve built and look at the great deals they took.” hoping Jesper would follow in line. 

I do have faith this gets done, though. The devils now see that last year wasn’t a fluke. Jesper sees that this is a team that will take him where he wants to go success wise. It’s too good a fit to fvck up.

[Lateralous]

16 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

How is that based on where he was drafted and not based on his production up to that point and potential? GMs and agents will generally base negotiations on players productivity, contract status, age and potential.

My question... how is there any indications that him being a 6th round pick had anything to do with anything through negotiations? 

Was there ever anything reported about this or anything? That's why im asking where that claim comes from
 

My guess is that it comes more from the other two guys being 1st overall picks.  They’ve been highly regarded for years so I think most people are comfortable giving them the early payday based on a high amount of projection.  
 

With a late round guy, I would think there’s a little more emphasis in the actual production compared to potential because, at the time of the draft, no one, including the Devils saw this coming.   Besides, before last year, there wasn’t much separation between Bratt and a guy like Pavel Zacha in terms of production or consistency.  
 

If Bratt wanted to be paid last summer like the player he’s showing himself to be in 22-23 and Fitzgerald said I’m going to need to see you take your game to the next level before I commit to that type of contract, I have no problem with what either side is doing.  

[MB3]

23 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

How is that based on where he was drafted and not based on his production up to that point and potential? GMs and agents will generally base negotiations on players productivity, contract status, age and potential.

My question... how is there any indications that him being a 6th round pick had anything to do with anything through negotiations? 

Was there ever anything reported about this or anything? That's why im asking where that claim comes from
 

I think mfitz’ point is that if Jesper had identical stats but was also the 6th overall pick, it’s a lot easier to throw the house at him after his first truly elite professional season because it was “expected”, and it’s a lot easier to guarantee yourself future production. Mediocre players fall ass backwards into career years all the time; look at David Clarkson lol. 

I’m very certain that his draft status was in the back of the Devils brains even if it wasn’t explicitly argued in the negotiations. 

1 minute ago, Lateralous said:

My guess is that it comes more from the other two guys being 1st overall picks.  They’ve been highly regarded for years so I think most people are comfortable giving them the early payday based on a high amount of projection.  
 

With a late round guy, I would think there’s a little more emphasis in the actual production compared to potential because, at the time of the draft, no one, including the Devils saw this coming.   Besides, before last year, there wasn’t much separation between Bratt and a guy like Pavel Zacha in terms of production or consistency.  
 

If Bratt wanted to be paid last summer like the player he’s showing himself to be in 22-23 and Fitzgerald said I’m going to need to see you take your game to the next level before I commit to that type of contract, I have no problem with what either side is doing.  

jinx you owe me an orange soda

[SterioDesign]

2 minutes ago, MB3 said:

I think mfitz’ point is that if Jesper had identical stats but was also the 6th overall pick, it’s a lot easier to throw the house at him after his first truly elite professional season because it was “expected”, and it’s a lot easier to guarantee yourself future production. Mediocre players fall ass backwards into career years all the time; look at David Clarkson lol. 

I’m very certain that his draft status was in the back of the Devils brains even if it wasn’t explicitly argued in the negotiations. 

i wasn't referring to what mfitz was saying, i was referring to Capo claiming "Fitz was so stuck on the 6th round thing that he didn't pay him a fair value."

To which i just dont know where that's coming from

[capo]

Just now, SterioDesign said:

i wasn't referring to what mfitz was saying, i was referring to Capo claiming "Fitz was so stuck on the 6th round thing that he didn't pay him a fair value."

To which i just dont know where that's coming from

If Bratt was drafted 1OA, how much do you think he's getting paid right now?

[Lateralous]

12 minutes ago, capo said:

If Bratt was drafted 1OA, how much do you think he's getting paid right now?

A 6th overall pick in Pavel Zacha led our team in scoring in 20-21 and was eligible for an extension that summer.  Fitz clearly wanted to see more from him too so I don’t think this 6th round thing is quite as cut and dry as you’re  making it out to be.   

Edited November 26, 2022 by Lateralous

[MB3]

7 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

A 6th overall pick in Pavel Zacha led our team in scoring in 20-21 and was eligible for an extension that summer.  Fitz clearly wanted to see more from him too so I don’t think this 6th round thing is quite as cut and dry as you’re  making it out to be.   

unless i missed something significant, pavel zacha didn’t have a near 80-point season lol

[devlman]

59 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

I guess it’s not “necessary” but he’s still the 5th best defensemen on the team in a sport that requires 6 D to play.  Given our position at the top of the standings, I don’t think you can just move him to gain an asset unless it’s part of a plan to improve the team this year.   

I just don’t see us as cup contenders or anything serious like that yet. In other words, he’s not the difference between a playoff run or a first round exit. I wouldn’t want to give up a potentially nice return for a replaceable player.

[MB3]

3 minutes ago, devlman said:

I just don’t see us as cup contenders or anything serious like that yet. In other words, he’s not the difference between a playoff run or a first round exit. I wouldn’t want to give up a potentially nice return for a replaceable player.

I know we’re supposed to emotionally hedge with how horrible we’ve been, but we’re one of the 3 most dominant teams in hockey. It’s time to see us as cup contenders. 

[capo]

"There’s a puzzle here,” Fitzgerald said. “I don’t like when I read, ‘he’s on a show me deal.’ We tried to get a long term deal, he tried to get a long term deal, we settled on this. We’ll go at it again and try to work something out here when we’re allowed to. But he’s a big part of our team. Big part. So, again, I’ve said it in the summer, I hope he’ll be here for a long time.”

This doesn't speak to the 6th round idea directly but it does point to where the Fitz's value was. Long term deals are generally less AA for term security. So, were the Devils in the 4s, at 5? 

[Lateralous]

12 minutes ago, MB3 said:

unless i missed something significant, pavel zacha didn’t have a near 80-point season lol

No, I think Zacha probably projected to 60 points in a shortened season and 65 over 82 in parts of two seasons but if you’re calling a 73 point season “near 80”  then Zacha projected to be “near 70” 😝

Edited November 26, 2022 by Lateralous

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, capo said:

If Bratt was drafted 1OA, how much do you think he's getting paid right now?

I don't see how that's relevant to my question.

I asked, where did you take the notion that Fitz didn't want to pay Bratt fair value because he was a 6th round pick? And not simply based on his perceived potential and production to date? 

Being a 6th round pick... and not being a first overall pick is quite a gap

34 minutes ago, capo said:

"There’s a puzzle here,” Fitzgerald said. “I don’t like when I read, ‘he’s on a show me deal.’ We tried to get a long term deal, he tried to get a long term deal, we settled on this. We’ll go at it again and try to work something out here when we’re allowed to. But he’s a big part of our team. Big part. So, again, I’ve said it in the summer, I hope he’ll be here for a long time.”

This doesn't speak to the 6th round idea directly but it does point to where the Fitz's value was. Long term deals are generally less AA for term security. So, were the Devils in the 4s, at 5? 

Bratt was on his ELC from 2018 til 2020. Through those 3 season he was a 1.9 / 2.3 and 2.4 points per game player. So is it at that point that you're saying that Fitz fvcked up by not signing him to a long-term deal?

Cause based on what we've seen. I really don't think the Bratt camp would have taken that deal based on his production then either. He had a great season last year and he wouldn't take a long term deal cause he wanted to prove he was worth more. So that's proving that his camp is clearly looking to try to maximize his long-term deal (or maybe hitting free agency) and wasn't going to take a deal like nico and jack took

Edited November 26, 2022 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

44 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

A 6th overall pick in Pavel Zacha led our team in scoring in 20-21 and was eligible for an extension that summer.  Fitz clearly wanted to see more from him too so I don’t think this 6th round thing is quite as cut and dry as you’re  making it out to be.   

If I ever forget just how bad this team was for a while, I’ll be sure to remember the sentence “Pavel Zacha lead the team in scoring”

[SterioDesign]

10 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

If I ever forget just how bad this team was for a while, I’ll be sure to remember the sentence “Pavel Zacha lead the team in scoring”

There's actually worst...

in 2021 Zacha lead the team in scoring with 35pts in 50 games.

in 2015 Henrique lead the team in scoring with 43pts in 75 games......... There was never a lower point in Devils history than 2015

Edited November 26, 2022 by SterioDesign

[capo]

15 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I don't see how that's relevant to my question.

I asked, where did you take the notion that Fitz didn't want to pay Bratt fair value because he was a 6th round pick? And not simply based on his perceived potential and production to date? 

Being a 6th round pick... and not being a first overall pick is quite a gap

Bratt was on his ELC from 2018 til 2020. Through those 3 season he was a 1.9 / 2.3 and 2.4 points per game player. So is it at that point that you're saying that Fitz fvcked up by not signing him to a long-term deal?

Cause based on what we've seen. I really don't think the Bratt camp would have taken that deal based on his production then either. He had a great season last year and he wouldn't take a long term deal cause he wanted to prove he was worth more. So that's proving that his camp is clearly looking to try to maximize his long-term deal (or maybe hitting free agency) and wasn't going to take a deal like nico and jack took

What do you think the Devils long term number was?

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, capo said:

What do you think the Devils long term number was?

I don't know but again, thats not relevant to the question. I asked you like 3 times. Where did you take the whole notion that Fitz was stuck on the 6th round pick and wouldn't give him fair value?

Please just answer this very straight forward question by an answer and not by a question asking me anything. You made that claim, explain it please.

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

How is that based on where he was drafted and not based on his production up to that point and potential? GMs and agents will generally base negotiations on players productivity, contract status, age and potential.

My question... how is there any indications that him being a 6th round pick had anything to do with anything through negotiations? 

Was there ever anything reported about this or anything? That's why im asking where that claim comes from
 

There is NO indication as to that. I didn’t say it happened, I explained the way it could be possible. 

It is quite ironic that you are looking for something reported while you continue to speculate that his agent is the problem, and it’s nothing to support anything other than the fact that he is a tough negotiator. 

[capo]

17 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I don't know but again, thats not relevant to the question. I asked you like 3 times. Where did you take the whole notion that Fitz was stuck on the 6th round pick and wouldn't give him fair value?

Please just answer this very straight forward question by an answer and not by a question asking me anything. You made that claim, explain it please.

I'm trying to find the quote. Fitz commented about having Bratt drafted in the 6th round is like found money.

Also, the two sides settled on $5.45 to avoid arbitration. They tried to get a long term deal done but Bratt wouldn't take their number.  We have to presume that the Devils long term AAV was less than what he got for one year.

You're never going to find where he told the reporter that he doesn't care to piss away found money. But people don't care to piss away found money. I'm inferring the 6th round thing because of all the other evidence in the room.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bratt was 1OA. It doesn't matter the gap between the two. The gap you mention proves my point.

[devlman]

1 hour ago, MB3 said:

I know we’re supposed to emotionally hedge with how horrible we’ve been, but we’re one of the 3 most dominant teams in hockey. It’s time to see us as cup contenders. 

We can see ourselves that way but I don’t think Severson is the difference in how we do one way or the other.

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Bratt has said he lets his agent handle all of the contract stuff. But yeah I think if Bratt said “get the deal done”, it would be done. The agent is just trying to get the best possible deal and apparently he’s a real SOB to deal with. We got lucky on Jack and Nico. Guess it isn’t going to be 3 in a row. 

Exactly. Instead he has an agent who is a d!ck to negotiate with and he is just sitting back waiting for his best deal. 

I know this because I do this all the time in my work life. My favorite negotiation tactic is to take a ludicrous position and stick with it long enough until the insurance company starts believing it. They never hit my number, but they always end up caving and paying more than the claim is worth. 

Boras was famous for this type of negotiation, hyping up some of his lesser guys until people started believing they were worth more than they actually were. 

This may well be the technique Bratt’s guy is using to get the best possible deal. 

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

There is NO indication as to that. I didn’t say it happened, I explained the way it could be possible. 

It is quite ironic that you are looking for something reported while you continue to speculate that his agent is the problem, and it’s nothing to support anything other than the fact that he is a tough negotiator. 

Dude i'm asking those questions to Capo who made that claim. Not to you. He made that claim straight up and i asked him where he got that.

As for Bratt's agent, i said that was my guess based on the pattern and everything that i explained. And today i specified "Bratt's camp" who didn't take the deal. To make sure you didn't jump on this again, but here you are at your 2rd 3rd attempt already.

But if anything i certainly answered your question about why i thought his agent had something to do with it with actual answers. There was a pattern.

[SterioDesign]

5 minutes ago, capo said:

I'm trying to find the quote. Fitz commented about having Bratt drafted in the 6th round is like found money.

Also, the two sides settled on $5.45 to avoid arbitration. They tried to get a long term deal done but Bratt wouldn't take their number.  We have to presume that the Devils long term AAV was less than what he got for one year.

You're never going to find where he told the reporter that he doesn't care to piss away found money. But people don't care to piss away found money. I'm inferring the 6th round thing because of all the other evidence in the room.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bratt was 1OA. It doesn't matter the gap between the two. The gap you mention proves my point.

Fitz saying Bratt drafted in the 6th round pick saying its like found money... doesn't mean anything when it comes to his contract or wtv. It simply means that you get value/assets that you were not planning on getting.

So you're saying (if i may resume what im understanding) that your claim that Fitz didnt want to give Bratt fair money because he was a 6th round pick is based on him saying that Bratt was like found money... and that your opinion is that people don't care to piss away found money... so that means that Fitz didn't care to piss away Bratt and not give him the money he wanted.... is this correct?