The “Give Props to the Member Who Had a Seemingly Iffy Take…And Was Proven RIGHT” Thread

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Just a dog-days thread, to give random props to members here who had a controversial or largely-disagreed-upon viewpoint at some point, but was proven to be correct in his or her assessment.

Obviously many examples, but one that sticks out to me at the moment is @AEWHistory , who suggested moving Cory Schneider fairly early on during his time here.  I and others definitely did NOT want to do that, especially with him playing so well initially.

Of course, having a terrific goalie is great…if there’s actually any semblance of a core, which the Devils absolutely did not have at that point.  A still-in-his-prime Cory could’ve netted back some gaggle of picks and pieces…instead, not only were his remaining prime years largely wasted, it turned out his prime wouldn’t last nearly as long as hoped for…so the Devils were stuck with a dead cap hit to rid themselves of him that STILL applies to this season.

So kudos to AEW.  He was absolutely right to suggest dealing off Cory when he did.

[Puckbuster]

It may not have been very “iffy”, but Kudos to those that believed Hughes was the true number 1 over pwm.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

5 minutes ago, Puckbuster said:

It may not have been very “iffy”, but Kudos to those that believed Hughes was the true number 1 over pwm.

So basically, everyone not named Steve Valiquette  😂

[Puckbuster]

I will admit I was wrong 😑 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

58 minutes ago, Puckbuster said:

I will admit I was wrong 😑 

Well in fairness, there were plenty of Ranger fans at the draft that thought their team “won” when the Devils took Jack.

But I don’t think any Devils fans wanted PWM over Jack (even those who were concerned over Jack’s first two seasons).  Part of that is that Kakko hasn’t done anything noteworthy at all so far.  Of course the Rangers want to make his putting up 40 points last season sound like some major step.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[HughesCorporation]

I admit I was for Patrick over Nico, yeah I'm a mechanic, not an NHL scout lol 

[Lateralous]

7 minutes ago, HughesCorporation said:

I admit I was for Patrick over Nico, yeah I'm a mechanic, not an NHL scout lol 

Well at least you didn’t go with KakkoCorporation 😏

Honestly, I didn’t have an opinion on Nico/Nolan, so I’m in no position to throw stones.   

[HughesCorporation]

3 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

Well at least you didn’t go with KakkoCorporation 😏

Honestly, I didn’t have an opinion on Nico/Nolan, so I’m in no position to throw stones.   

But nobody could've predicted Nolans health situation, what a total disaster for himself and the Flyers, really sad situation even if it was Phillys pick

[Nicomo]

2 hours ago, HughesCorporation said:

I admit I was for Patrick over Nico, yeah I'm a mechanic, not an NHL scout lol 

At the time I kind of wanted Nolan just because he was the projected #1 for so long, and his size. 

I was team Jack Hughes all the way through. And I never understood how the doubters/haters couldn’t see how special a player he was even early on when the points weren’t coming. 

[Guadana]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:02 PM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Just a dog-days thread, to give random props to members here who had a controversial or largely-disagreed-upon viewpoint at some point, but was proven to be correct in his or her assessment.

Obviously many examples, but one that sticks out to me at the moment is @AEWHistory , who suggested moving Cory Schneider fairly early on during his time here.  I and others definitely did NOT want to do that, especially with him playing so well initially.

Of course, having a terrific goalie is great…if there’s actually any semblance of a core, which the Devils absolutely did not have at that point.  A still-in-his-prime Cory could’ve netted back some gaggle of picks and pieces…instead, not only were his remaining prime years largely wasted, it turned out his prime wouldn’t last nearly as long as hoped for…so the Devils were stuck with a dead cap hit to rid themselves of him that STILL applies to this season.

So kudos to AEW.  He was absolutely right to suggest dealing off Cory when he did.

Thanks. 

I made tonns of takes, that were right after time. But I should admit that Gaudreau should play better next season. Anyway I'm happy Fitz didn't signed him because we could never trade for Meier.

Columbus build very deep team, its still a question of time for development and balance,  but there are a lot of talents. On both ends of the ice. Year or two and we will see very strong team, goalie is a question mark as always, but its a question mark for every team not named Boston. Tampa, rangers and Islanders could hurt by injury. 

About the topic, I was proud member of Nico and Jack camp in draft days. Glad we drafted both. They are good 1a 1b centers, if we would draft Makar somehow, our destiny line would went in absolutely wrong direction and we would stay without Jack, Luke etc. Dont mess with destiny, if its good. 

[nessus]

Anyone who was in favor of the move to fire Shero. To me, Shero was a massive upgrade over Lou, so I felt that he was the perfect GM. I thought it was a mistake to get rid of him. He committed to rebuilding, he got the better of trades, and he knew when to be a trade deadline seller. Turns out his successor could do it all better. Granted, there are other factors at play, but in any case, I couldn't be happier with Tom Fitzgerald. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

19 minutes ago, nessus said:

Anyone who was in favor of the move to fire Shero. To me, Shero was a massive upgrade over Lou, so I felt that he was the perfect GM. I thought it was a mistake to get rid of him. He committed to rebuilding, he got the better of trades, and he knew when to be a trade deadline seller. Turns out his successor could do it all better. Granted, there are other factors at play, but in any case, I couldn't be happier with Tom Fitzgerald. 

Yeah this is a good one.

In some ways I see it as Fitz finishing the job that Shero started, but to be clear, I’m not sure that had Shero stuck around, that HE would’ve done as good of a job as Fitz did once Fitz became the GM.  Shero made solid on-paper moves for the most part, but man did they have a way of not working out for him beyond his earlier ones.

I always sympathized with Shero because he took the job having SO little to work with initially…all those failed draft picks, all those Band-Aid moves made by Lou in his waning years.  And Shero tried so hard to be creative in getting solid pieces with minimal assets to offer in deals.

But, he did absolutely stick with Hynes too long, and never seemed to have any Plan Bs in place when seasons would go off the rails…maybe shopped a bit too much at the Penguin Dollar Store too.  Of course Schneider getting Space Jammed and becoming an expensive disaster also hurt.  And I think ownership absolutely meddled when it came to the Subban deal.  I’m not convinced that Shero was fully on board with that deal…and I suspect when Shero was canned, he probably said something along the lines of “Hey I’m not the one who wanted Subban here!”  I think he could’ve been given one more coaching hire, but obviously hard to imagine things turning out much better than they have under Fitz.  He’s set this team up to be good for several years.

[Jerrydevil]

I hated the Kovalchuk trade because I didn’t think his style of play and the Devils style of play were a match. I ate crow on that one — happily. For a couple of years anyway.

 

[Guadana]

Shero was bad and lucky. His strategy didn’t work at all, but he was lucky to win lotteries.  And he did right decision with Nico and Jack. After that he clearly didn’t understand what he should do with defense, how draft defenseman, how create depth. He lost a lot of value of draft picks. And didn’t try to retool hard and work hard on the market when he needed - he worked hard in 2017 and in 2019 only, and 2019 was full of gambles. 2017 was a good offseason from him from the strategy point of view. And retooling was a bad decision from the begging - years of Conte and Lou ruined organization, and he should sell, not buy, like he did with Palmieri and with other assets after. 

Shero found some good scouts. That’s his second bright part. Except CHL scout, who drafted/promoted McLeod, Smith and Stillman and was fired after. 

And after Shero leaved the building, Fitz immediately changed direction, drafted tonns of defensemen with better modern play, may be if he would be gm in 2018, we would draft KA Miller, but he got Marino from Smith anyway. In two years there were no nhl defensemen from Shero period as I remember(Severson was from Lou time). And now there is only Bahl in the system from Shero’s tenure. And Vukoevic who even can’t find a roster spot in AHL on the regular basis. 
 

Fitz isn’t perfect of course. He was lucky in 2022 when team tried to compete, but his plan didn’t work. I understand that the reason we’re injuries, but big part was goaltending. I’m happy with how he fixed it year ago, but in the season before he did nothing except Hammond. And this year with new targets and plans he didn’t signed any vet goalie for protection. I’m not sold on Hellebyuck, but Talbot(for example)  as insurance wouldn’t hurt.
And his drafting strategy isn’t perfect too. Part of his scouts group working well, part don’t. At least they have better understanding of what is working and translating to nhl better. But he didn’t drafted ANY driver with high risk high offensive potential like Shero scouts did with Bratt and Gritsyuk. Filmon and Bardakov are good late round picks, both should be drafted, but Filmon is more a one way shooter - we can compare him with Sharangovich, Bardakov is forechecker with IQ but low shot. Bratt and Gritsyuk were first round level talents with tools of best players for your line, but with some issues. Fitz didn’t draft this kind of players in later rounds, and it’s not a situation like there were no options in the draft days. 
He adressed some needs later than it needed. He started to draft right defensemen year or even two years after. And he didn’t even started with centers. I see potential with Hameenaho, but his skating is awful and there were Heidt who is exactly high risk high reward center. With issues, but without worst skating between all prospects we ever drafted. And Devils aren’t in situation where we are lack of right wingers in top-6/9, Bratt and Mercer are under control, Holtz is still in the pipe line, Meier can play and played a lot on the right side. I’m rooting for Lenny now, his IQ is great, but I’m talking about decision making in the draft day.
And it’s not like we never drafted Finns with bad skating. Salminen was a bad skater and his pick looks bad now, because there were a great prospect who was drafted right after him. Salminen was a big but slow defenseman with issues with his all around game. Svozil was drafted right after him and he was a player with nhl tool set. And the story was repeated this year with Cheslock, when Ishimnikov was drafted right after him - big right defenseman with better skating, better puck skills and more reactive game overall, better career trajectory. At least we drafted his partner Karpovich. 
 

The funny thing is Cheslock looks like a prospect with better nhl potential and toolset than most defensemen we drafted in Shero period. Fitz is better trader, he works better on the open market and address needs much better. His defensive building vision is better in 500 times, he clearly understand roles on the ice better. I’m so happy he is our gm, he made tonns of works. And no one can be perfect, I’m watching on you, Fitz. But I’m really happy how he did his work, how he spended previous summer, when people were not agree with me a lot, but it translated in the best season and first second round in ten years. 
 

After three years only we have only Jack, Nico and Bratt from five years of Shero “rebuilding” in the roster. And two of them are first overall picks. And McLeod and Bastian - both are good players, but one is a bust and both are fourth liners. F U, Shero, you were so bad and I wish you gm career in the rangers organization. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Guadana

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

@Guadana I still don't think you realize how difficult of a position that Shero was in upon taking the job; he basically was tasked with trying to rebuild both the NHL AND the AHL teams from almost scratch.  BTW the two picks that Shero dealt for Palms turned into Ryan Gropp (never made it) and Rem Pitlick (123 NHL games to date, never more than 46 in any given season).  Who knows who Shero might have taken had he hung onto those picks, but he had to find SOME NHL-quality players to fill out his roster...and Palms absolutely was that for his first five seasons here (and was signed to very reasonable money and term and even made a couple of All-Star appearances, and Fitz was later able to flip him as part of a package to snag a first-rounder).  He also made a hell of deal to snag Hall (who unfortunately as we know had those knee issues in Year 3 here and was never the same), and then later made a fine deal to sell him off to the Coyotes...the first-rounder in that trade became Dawson Mercer, the third-rounder was dealt for Siegs, and Bahl also came back in that trade...nice assets that Fitz inherited, and of course to his credit, he turned those picks into useful NHLers.

I'm not saying Shero was perfect by any stretch, but I think MANY GMs would've had a hell of a time trying to put a team together given what Shero inherited.  Yes, he did get lucky getting two 1OAs to work with, but that's part of it...many "great" GMs started their runs with high picks...it's pretty hard to build a Cup contender without them (not that it CAN'T be done of course, but teams like the Pens, Blackhawks, and Lightning sure weren't hurt by having top-of-the-draft talents in their folds).  And Shero did go with Nico, when it wasn't clear-cut as to whether Nico or Nolan would go first.  And as previously mentioned, Fitz inherited a number of pieces from Shero that he was able to package for other players...yeah, Ty Smith sure looks he's not going to be all that great, but as you pointed out, Fitz was able to get Marino for him.  Okhotiuk and Zetterlund (picked under Shero's watch) went as part of the package in the deal for Meier.  Yeah McLeod as "only" a fourth-liner isn't great top-end for a 12OA...and sure, would've been nice to have gotten Tage Thompson or Alex DeBrincat or a few other guys who were drafted later...but not like every team hits home runs with every pick.  At least McLeod isn't a full-on, never-made-it bust...at least he's carved out a role for himself.  

That being said, in the end it's a results-oriented business, and Shero's "2nd-rounder + some other pick for NHL player" MO definitely didn't pay off as well as the Palms deal.  It didn't happen here for Johansson and the same was true of Mueller.  You are right, he didn't really do a good job finding defensemen, and Fitz has absolutely lapped him in that regard...yes, Fitz himself got lucky with having a 4OA and 2OA, but even if taking Luke at 4OA could be considered a no-brainer (especially with Jack here), he could've gone in a different direction from Nemec...Fitz deserves kudos there for deciding "I'm drafting the stud RHD that will replace Seves right about when he's leaving."

Also fair to remember that Shero did lock up Nico to his current deal...imagine if Nico had been signed to a shorter, "safer" bridge deal.  That's one less headache for Fitz right now. 

And of course, Fitz has really gone out of his way to pitch NJ (both the team AND the state itself) as being an attractive place to live and play hockey.  I think on some level Shero thought of New Jersey as almost being some kind of obstacle that he would have to work around in building his team, while Fitz took a "No, I'm going to make NJ itself be part of the sales pitch!" approach that is paying dividends.

Anyway, Shero's fingerprints are on much more of the current product than you're giving him credit for, but Fitz has been largely excellent, and without him I'm definitely not convinced that the Devils are sitting as pretty as they are today.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

10 hours ago, Jerrydevil said:

I hated the Kovalchuk trade because I didn’t think his style of play and the Devils style of play were a match. I ate crow on that one — happily. For a couple of years anyway.

 

I didn't mind the Kovy deal because Lou didn't really give up all that much to get him...and even got back Salmela too...and it felt like a solid rental move given what those Devils needed to make a run.  But when I saw Kovy play I realized how raw he was (despite having been in the NHL for several years at that point) and wondered if he'd ever been properly coached.

I hated all of the offseason nonsense that came with him in 2010...the first being that the guy obviously wanted the Kings but wasn't quite willing to take any less money for it to happen.  So then FINALLY Lou signed Kovy to that absurd 17-year deal that Bettman warned wouldn't be approved, friggin' Lou (at his most arrogant) insists on announcing it at a press conference, Devils predictably get docked assets, more drama, then FINALLY another absurd deal (15 years).

I warmed up to Kovy some in the second half of 2011, and then of course with Lemaire's guidance he became a much more well-rounded minutes horse in 2011-12 and was a big part of those Devils reaching the Cup finals...but it was obvious once he came back from the KHL after the 2013 season finally got underway, that he was no longer invested...which of course really sucked.  I didn't really hate him for "retiring", as both parties were much better off if Kovy was simply that unhappy being here (and I think he knew he was on the decline physically, so he went to a lesser league where he could still get paid plenty without having to play 82 games and looking worse and worse against NHLers).

BUT, when he came back to the NHL years later and failed miserably (and did he ever), I did take some pleasure out of it, mostly because with Kovy it ALWAYS seemed to be about Kovy.  He just struck me as being so fvcking entitled and thinking that he should just get whatever he wanted whenever he wanted it, the hell with everyone else...I want to go back to the NHL now, ME ME ME ME ME!  He thought he could just waltz right back here and pick up where he left off...wrong pal.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Lateralous]

58 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I hated all of the offseason nonsense that came with him in 2010...the first being that the guy obviously wanted the Kings but wasn't quite willing to take any less money for it to happen.  So then FINALLY Lou signed Kovy to that absurd 17-year deal that Bettman warned wouldn't be approved, friggin' Lou (at his most arrogant) insists on announcing at a press conference, Devils predictably get docked assets, more drama, then FINALLY another absurd deal (15 years).

 

Could you imagine if we were still trying to ride out 4 more years of Kovy's 17 year deal?     

As for Lou, I was no fan of his work by that time but wasn't it clear during the Kovy press conference that this was all Jeff Vanderbeek and he wanted no part of it?   I thought Lou kept referring to this move as something "Ownership" wanted to do almost as if he were trying to make it clear he was just doing as he was told.  Am I thinking of something else?    

What I don't forgive him for is not forfeiting the second to last pick of the 1st round when we made the finals as part of the penalty for that contract.  That was his arrogance at it's absolute worst.  Then he and Conte go and draft fvcking Matteau.   

 

Edit: Also, for all the sh!t we give Parise about leaving to Minnesota with his buddy, I think it was the huge commitment to Kovy while telling Parise he had to wait an extra year for his big deal that really sealed our fate.  I never really had any animosity towards ZP because I think that whole episode was self inflicted.    

Edited July 24, 2023 by Lateralous

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 hours ago, Lateralous said:

Could you imagine if we were still trying to ride out 4 more years of Kovy's 17 year deal?     

As for Lou, I was no fan of his work by that time but wasn't it clear during the Kovy press conference that this was all Jeff Vanderbeek and he wanted no part of it?   I thought Lou kept referring to this move as something "Ownership" wanted to do almost as if he were trying to make it clear he was just doing as he was told.  Am I thinking of something else?    

What I don't forgive him for is not forfeiting the second to last pick of the 1st round when we made the finals as part of the penalty for that contract.  That was his arrogance at it's absolute worst.  Then he and Conte go and draft fvcking Matteau.   

 

Edit: Also, for all the sh!t we give Parise about leaving to Minnesota with his buddy, I think it was the huge commitment to Kovy while telling Parise he had to wait an extra year for his big deal that really sealed our fate.  I never really had any animosity towards ZP because I think that whole episode was self inflicted.    

Yeah I think VBK was definitely involved in the Kovy nonsense, but at the same time, when the commissioner of the NHL tells you not to announce a deal because it's non-compliant and will lead to penalties, don't friggin' announce the deal!  Go back to the drawing board until the deal's a sure thing to go through (which is what happened anyway).

In some alternate timeline, I'm guessing there's almost no way that Kovy would've made it to the end of his deal here had never retired from the NHL...as prohibitive as that contact was, I'm guessing at some point the Devils would've found some way to unload it...but good lord was that a terrible contract the second it was signed.  I wouldn't go 15 years for ANYONE, especially a guy at Kovy's age at the time.  That was sheer lunacy.  And that's honestly when I think Lou jumped the shark, because that contract was against everything that Lou stood for...five years earlier, he would've said "Over my dead body...you want him signed to that kind of a contract, you find yourself another GM!"

Chico apparently said that behind the scenes that Parise was plenty pissed when Kovy was taken care of ahead of him...what was weird was later on, when it came out that Parise never even received an offer after the 2012 playoffs.

Don't want to turn this into an "All That Went Wrong With Lou At The End" thread, as we've gone into detail about that MANY times (and of course one former poster couldn't bring up Lou's follies enough for his liking), but Lou was SO respected for his previous successes that (even now to an extent), it's as though some will always believe, "Well, he must have SOME reason for doing what he's doing...there's GOTTA be a method to the madness!"  What we found out was that after a while (I suspect mostly due to the prospect pipeline drying up almost completely), he really was grabbing at straws and throwing sh!t against the wall and hoping some of it might stick.  It feels like he's reaching that point with the Islanders...if he hasn't already.  I don't think I've ever seen a GM be quite as reckless with his caps as Lou is, honestly.     

Edited July 24, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Guadana]

9 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

@Guadana I still don't think you realize how difficult of a position that Shero was in upon taking the job; he basically was tasked with trying to rebuild both the NHL AND the AHL teams from almost scratch.  BTW the two picks that Shero dealt for Palms turned into Ryan Gropp (never made it) and Rem Pitlick (123 NHL games to date, never more than 46 in any given season).  Who knows who Shero might have taken had he hung onto those picks, but he had to find SOME NHL-quality players to fill out his roster...and Palms absolutely was that for his first five seasons here (and was signed to very reasonable money and term and even made a couple of All-Star appearances, and Fitz was later able to flip him as part of a package to snag a first-rounder).  He also made a hell of deal to snag Hall (who unfortunately as we know had those knee issues in Year 3 here and was never the same), and then later made a fine deal to sell him off to the Coyotes...the first-rounder in that trade became Dawson Mercer, the third-rounder was dealt for Siegs, and Bahl also came back in that trade...nice assets that Fitz inherited, and of course to his credit, he turned those picks into useful NHLers.

I'm not saying Shero was perfect by any stretch, but I think MANY GMs would've had a hell of a time trying to put a team together given what Shero inherited.  Yes, he did get lucky getting two 1OAs to work with, but that's part of it...many "great" GMs started their runs with high picks...it's pretty hard to build a Cup contender without them (not that it CAN'T be done of course, but teams like the Pens, Blackhawks, and Lightning sure weren't hurt by having top-of-the-draft talents in their folds).  And Shero did go with Nico, when it wasn't clear-cut as to whether Nico or Nolan would go first.  And as previously mentioned, Fitz inherited a number of pieces from Shero that he was able to package for other players...yeah, Ty Smith sure looks he's not going to be all that great, but as you pointed out, Fitz was able to get Marino for him.  Okhotiuk and Zetterlund (picked under Shero's watch) went as part of the package in the deal for Meier.  Yeah McLeod as "only" a fourth-liner isn't great top-end for a 12OA...and sure, would've been nice to have gotten Tage Thompson or Alex DeBrincat or a few other guys who were drafted later...but not like every team hits home runs with every pick.  At least McLeod isn't a full-on, never-made-it bust...at least he's carved out a role for himself.  

That being said, in the end it's a results-oriented business, and Shero's "2nd-rounder + some other pick for NHL player" MO definitely didn't pay off as well as the Palms deal.  It didn't happen here for Johansson and the same was true of Mueller.  You are right, he didn't really do a good job finding defensemen, and Fitz has absolutely lapped him in that regard...yes, Fitz himself got lucky with having a 4OA and 2OA, but even if taking Luke at 4OA could be considered a no-brainer (especially with Jack here), he could've gone in a different direction from Nemec...Fitz deserves kudos there for deciding "I'm drafting the stud RHD that will replace Seves right about when he's leaving."

Also fair to remember that Shero did lock up Nico to his current deal...imagine if Nico had been signed to a shorter, "safer" bridge deal.  That's one less headache for Fitz right now. 

And of course, Fitz has really gone out of his way to pitch NJ (both the team AND the state itself) as being an attractive place to live and play hockey.  I think on some level Shero thought of New Jersey as almost being some kind of obstacle that he would have to work around in building his team, while Fitz took a "No, I'm going to make NJ itself be part of the sales pitch!" approach that is paying dividends.

Anyway, Shero's fingerprints are on much more of the current product than you're giving him credit for, but Fitz has been largely excellent, and without him I'm definitely not convinced that the Devils are sitting as pretty as they are today.  

Hm. I will answer more you later. I clearly understand everything. I'm ok with losing, I understand the situation. He picked wrong strategy and made wrong decisions even for this strategy, he was bad in many aspects I noticed, now we have only 5 players, two of then are 1oa(from years he tried to compete), two of then are 4th liners. No defensemen. After 5 years retool. Its an awful result. Its short answer.

Its not me who doesn't understand something- that Shero was bad.  I didn't ask success, I asked strategy, moves and work, not gamble and losing high second round picks year after year for losing team without depth and no prospect pool. 5 years of misery. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Guadana

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

56 minutes ago, Guadana said:

Hm. I will answer more you later. I clearly understand everything. I'm ok with losing, I understand the situation. He picked wrong strategy and made wrong decisions even for this strategy, he was bad in many aspects I noticed, now we have only 5 players, two of then are 1oa(from years he tried to compete), two of then are 4th liners. No defensemen. After 5 years retool. Its an awful result. Its short answer.

Its not me who doesn't understand something- that Shero was bad.  I didn't ask success, I asked strategy, moves and work, not gamble and losing high second round picks year after year for losing team without depth and no prospect pool. 5 years of misery. 

If you’re just going to ignore the fact that some Shero-acquired pieces were used by Fitz in helping him to make other moves because you want to force a “Shero was bad and that’s that, he did almost nothing good at all” narrative, there’s not much to discuss.

For the record, in case my post didn’t make it clear, I think he did some things well and some things not so well.  His time here wound up being a mixed bag, and that includes his luck…especially with Cory falling victim to a fast-track decline while still relatively young, and Taylor suffering that knee injury that limited him to just 33 games following his MVP season…but of course, Shero did win two draft lotteries.  But I guess he doesn’t get any credit for taking Hischier over Patrick.  Or selecting Bratt with a 6th-rounder or Sharangovich with a 5th-rounder.

Would you be happier if Zetterlund, Okhotiuk, Sharangovich, Ty Smith, and some other of Shero’s players were still here?  Because apparently that’s a big part of how you’re judging him…the amount of Shero players still present.  Again, Fitz did a great job turning those bodies into players who should help the Devils more than the guys that he gave up, but Shero brought those trade assets here to begin with…Fitz quite possibly doesn’t have as large of a pool of young desirables to deal from without those Shero picks in the system.  And the jury is still out on some of the other guys that Ray brought into the organization.

Whether you want to acknowledge this or not, Fitz inherited a hell of a lot more to work with than his predecessor.  And that’s not to knock Fitz in the slightest, because like I said, I think he’s been absolutely terrific overall since getting the gig, in every way.  But Shero did NOT leave a bare cupboard the way that Lou did.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[nessus]

It also seems that the owners brought Shero in for a retool rather than the total tear down that the organization actually needed. I've always wondered if Shero's tenure here reflected his vision or the ownership's. I don't think it's a coincidence that he was fired right after trading Taylor Hall. To me, this signified a failed retool, and it became more obvious that we really needed to start from the ground, and build around the few high end prospects/players the Devils had in the system. I will also add that for all of Shero's good fortune, he was on the other end of luck plenty of times. The Gusev trade comes to mind. How many players with a similar trajectory to Gusev in the KHL come in and light the NHL up?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

11 hours ago, nessus said:

It also seems that the owners brought Shero in for a retool rather than the total tear down that the organization actually needed. I've always wondered if Shero's tenure here reflected his vision or the ownership's. I don't think it's a coincidence that he was fired right after trading Taylor Hall. To me, this signified a failed retool, and it became more obvious that we really needed to start from the ground, and build around the few high end prospects/players the Devils had in the system. I will also add that for all of Shero's good fortune, he was on the other end of luck plenty of times. The Gusev trade comes to mind. How many players with a similar trajectory to Gusev in the KHL come in and light the NHL up?

I think Shero knew he was in for close to a full rebuild, but decided that as long as the prices were reasonable, that he would try to bring in relatively young potential core pieces instead of purely waiting patiently to draft them (which of course is also no sure thing) and blindly hoping enough of them would develop in time.  As far as "reasonable prices" go, that meant no first-rounders going the other way in deals, and no UFA overpayments for the sake of making a move or to placate a restless fanbase.

So he made the deals for Palms and Hall.  Hung onto his first-rounders so that he was able to select Nico, Ty Smith (oh well), and Jack (and didn't mortgage any future first-rounders beyond those so that he successor still had his own picks to work with).  Also brought in MoJo (who was coming off his best season and was entering his Age 27 year), Will Butcher, Gusev, Mueller...often he was trying to bring in guys that at least appeared to have the talent to be helpful...I don't think it's any coincidence that Hall, Palms, MoJo, and Mueller were all former first-rounders.  And of course, whenever possible, Shero tried to find ways to nab surplus picks to help with other trades...for all of the flap Guadana gave Shero about dealing off second-round picks, it's not like Ray never retained any of them to select players...Blackwood (2015), Bastian (2016 - still on the team), Boqvist (2017), and Okhotiuk (2019) were all second-round selections made under Shero's watch.  Obviously not a ton of success with those picks, but there was only one season where Shero didn't make a selection in the second round. 

Yeah, ultimately too many of his moves didn't work out, as we've been over, but I feel like the guy was at least trying to be creative in attempting to find some solid young players with prime years left and some upside, while trying to maintain some cap space AND not mortgaging too much in future assets (as in not making any costly moves involving his first-rounders), as well as finding ways to snag some extra picks along the way.  What else was he supposed to do?  Just build almost solely through the draft and sit on his hands and make no attempt to find any potential core pieces at all?

I think along the way, a few things went wrong (outside of the obvious:  too many of what seemed like pretty good moves not working out).  I don't think Shero fully wanted to be a buyer as the 2018 deadline approached, but wanted to show his team that they had some level of support...I think he would've rather hung onto the 2018 2nd-rounder he coughed up in the Grabner deal.  I don't think he really wanted to cough up a pair of 2nd-rounders in the deal for PK (who I don't think Shero was all that keen on bringing here in the first place).  I think ownership wanted PK not only to try to signal to Hall "We're trying here", but I think they felt that PK has much more "red carpet" marketing appeal than he really did...I think that ownership envisioned a crowd full of Devils fans all wearing #76 jerseys (look how many of them were made available for purchase at the Rock).  They didn't seem to realize that Devils fans wanted players who were actually GOOD and not both pricey (though the Devils could obviously handle his cap hit) and well past their prime.  It wouldn't surprise me if Shero said something along the lines of "See, told you that wasn't gonna work" on his way out.

I think ownership also REALLY wanted Hall kept here at a "Do whatever it takes!" detrimental price, which Shero had no interest in...I think Shero saw enough red flags with Hall that he knew that even despite Hall's most magical MVP season, that there was a good chance that Taylor would NEVER come close to having that kind of a season again (was he ever proven right), so no big offer, and then of course, a trade where he did VERY well in getting back assets that would help Fitz to improve the Devils down the line.  Dealing Hall against ownership's wishes was likely a big part of him losing his job...I get the feeling that it got plenty ugly once Shero was let go...plenty of anger and differing opinions on both sides as to how things went so sideways.

This is more speculation of course, but I think when Fitz was given the job, being the smart guy that he is, I think he told ownership something along the lines of, "Look, I think I have enough pieces here to start to truly turn this around before too much longer...but not yet enough...we still need time and we need to do this right.  We CANNOT rush this.  We can't another make another PK kind of move to try to speed this thing along.  The fans are losing patience and they're not going to be happy at having to be even more patient, but starting right now, we ALL have to be on the same page.  That means should both the media and the fans start to let us have it if the losses start piling up for another couple of years, we need to stick to the plan and continue preaching patience, even though our fans will hate us all for it, and will rip us relentlessly.  We WILL turn the corner and they WILL forgive us once we do, because I think I can put together a team that should be competitive for several years...I have the cap room and enough assets to keep improving the on-ice product.  But again, no shortcuts, no moves made to placate angry fans.  We MUST stay the course no matter what."

It appears to be working out, so kudos to them, because the organization from top to bottom definitely took their share of barbs as bad season piled upon bad season.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Guadana]

On 7/25/2023 at 2:51 AM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

If you’re just going to ignore the fact that some Shero-acquired pieces were used by Fitz in helping him to make other moves because you want to force a “Shero was bad and that’s that, he did almost nothing good at all” narrative, there’s not much to discuss.

For the record, in case my post didn’t make it clear, I think he did some things well and some things not so well.  His time here wound up being a mixed bag, and that includes his luck…especially with Cory falling victim to a fast-track decline while still relatively young, and Taylor suffering that knee injury that limited him to just 33 games following his MVP season…but of course, Shero did win two draft lotteries.  But I guess he doesn’t get any credit for taking Hischier over Patrick.  Or selecting Bratt with a 6th-rounder or Sharangovich with a 5th-rounder.

Would you be happier if Zetterlund, Okhotiuk, Sharangovich, Ty Smith, and some other of Shero’s players were still here?  Because apparently that’s a big part of how you’re judging him…the amount of Shero players still present.  Again, Fitz did a great job turning those bodies into players who should help the Devils more than the guys that he gave up, but Shero brought those trade assets here to begin with…Fitz quite possibly doesn’t have as large of a pool of young desirables to deal from without those Shero picks in the system.  And the jury is still out on some of the other guys that Ray brought into the organization.

Whether you want to acknowledge this or not, Fitz inherited a hell of a lot more to work with than his predecessor.  And that’s not to knock Fitz in the slightest, because like I said, I think he’s been absolutely terrific overall since getting the gig, in every way.  But Shero did NOT leave a bare cupboard the way that Lou did.  

 

On 7/25/2023 at 5:08 AM, nessus said:

It also seems that the owners brought Shero in for a retool rather than the total tear down that the organization actually needed. I've always wondered if Shero's tenure here reflected his vision or the ownership's. I don't think it's a coincidence that he was fired right after trading Taylor Hall. To me, this signified a failed retool, and it became more obvious that we really needed to start from the ground, and build around the few high end prospects/players the Devils had in the system. I will also add that for all of Shero's good fortune, he was on the other end of luck plenty of times. The Gusev trade comes to mind. How many players with a similar trajectory to Gusev in the KHL come in and light the NHL up?

No. He made wrong decision even or retooling or was passive. It`s Sherogolian syndrome. You gys just can`t accept that he made wrong decisions for his strategy and picked the wrong strategy from the beggining. Btw ownres were famous for their loving to rebuild. 
Zetterlund, Okhotiuk, Sharangovich, Ty Smith - Smith was the disaster and the clear mark of how bad Shero was in defensive building. And what defesnemen he picked before with what kind defense devils had all of that time. Zetterlund and Okhotiuk are depth players that were not key players in the trade.  Sharangovicjh was up and down but still a good player, who was pick in later round and his development wasn`t really fast from the beggining. He is good, scouts are good,(like they were in case of Bratt), but that`s all. Again - only 5 players, with Sharangovich - only six. Both Okhotiuk and Zetterlund could not be nhlers for Devils this year or bottom lone players.

You are making the same mistake when you talk about Lou lefted.
1. Shero decided to retool.  He should decided to rebuild. Team was in ruins but still have something in the roster. But no prospect pool
2. He traded early seconds and firsts but didn`t sign players from free market. Everybody give a credit for that, but it was mistake FOR HIS STRATEGY. This deals would endm  but he didn`t make roster really better with proven players, he only signed questionable players and made a gambles.
3. There were a lot of gambles. With trading picks, with signing players. The only offseason when he tryied to focus on real building was 2017.  2019 offseason was a huge "all in" with broken Simmonds&Subban, Gusev who never played in NHl.
4. He was very passive. After trading Palmieri he did nothing. After 2018 season when team has only one good line and Kinkaid played over himself and Schneider started to fall again and again, he did nothing. 
5. He loved what he has when it cearly didn`t work - Hynes and Co. 
6. Huge problem was defense. Team played on shoulders of Schneider, than on shoulder of Hall. He didn`t understand how to build modern defense, what kind of defenseman he need to sign or draft, what kind of defensemen he has in the moment. If you check stats ("advenced" or "simple") you will figure it out may be. When we had Butcher, Severson, Muller who were bad as defensemen in the moment, he added Subban with his bad mobility and meh defensive game. And smith was on the horizon. He didn`t drafted strong mobule defensemen until 2019 draft.
7. He didn`t understand needs and talent. He spent Mcleod pick on Mcleod over defenseman when we had Henrique, Zajac and Zacha in pipe line in the period of retool, When we had nothing in defensive prospect pool after Henrique scored 30 goals and Zajac was still solid. Mcleod had middle six potential from the begging. After his 5 years and Hischier and Hughes were good first round picks, both were 1OA.

Overall. bad strategy, bad passive decision making for his strategy, awful defensive building and understanding, bad coaching decision, gambles, clearly weak understanding of how modern nhl is working. Devils were slow little team with bad defense. Because what kind of players he signed and drafted mostly. This is the antonym of the key to success in modern NHL. Reason why Devils had no success. The only once Hall played over his had, Hischier was really good and depth with Vatanen made everything to save the score. And Kinkaid playd over his haed.

1 Shero was lucky to win lottery  twice when he tried to be succesfull and fail. 
2 He made right decisions with Hischier and Hughes
3 He hired good scouts(not CHL scout, Castron was good but still lost the head scout position)
4 Couple of his trade were fun and successful. 

If Shero would drafted Patrick over Hischier, or Kakko over Hughes, he would be awful. It`s just fact. Just imagine how badly team was. But he did right decisions with 1OA(after draft luck and seasons failures), so he isn`t awful. He is just bad.
Fitz immidietly restructered defesne, changed direction of drafting, showed how good gms trading young players and picks, signed much more players. Even with his failure of goalie position, Fitz at least tried to sign goalies every year, not gamble on health of Schneider or performance of young goalie. This year? Questionable, will see. 
Contrast of proactive position and understaning of the game is feraking huge. And it`s not like Fitz is perfect - he made his own missing picks, his goalie decisions are questionable. So he is.. really good gm for what he made for now. 

Shero? You guys just love Hall, Nico and Jack. But only one player from this list was the result of decisions Shero made. It`s like if Nemec will be great defenseman, we will say that Fitz was gineous. Pick looks very good, I liked it much more than if we would draft Wright, but 2nd pick overall was result of Fitzy fail of strategy to compete in the season. There were reasons, but again -  we should call thing by their names. And give credit for thing we should give credit for. 
And Shero deserve a position he is haveing now. He isnt gm, because he was bad gm in his Devils time. Thanks for Nico, thanks for Jack, thanks for Fitz. That`s all after 5 years.

Wish him Rangers general maneger job. And from this moment I don`t really care.

___
Because I`m finally got the job on the project I really like. It was a 6 years journey until I got it. Now I`m background artist on animation project I can`t say the name, but project is really good and look pretty. Wish you, guys, I wish you guys that your long-term plans come to life, that you have enough strength for methodical work, and that it pays off with results.

This offseason Fitz made his own good and questionable decisions. I like his depth building. But Devils could lost some scoring. Will see how it goes. His goalie decision is questionable too. I like his defensive decisions with Miller and Foote.  Yes, Graves and Severson are better duo than what we have with Hughes and Miller for now, but it`s understandable in this situatuin. He protected team with depth and expirience.

Devils are true contenders but with some questionable positions, will see if it will work against Devils or not and if it will, how Fitz will fix it.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Guadana

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

@Guadana was starting to wonder if you were OK...good to see that you are.

Not going to keep going back and forth with mega-walls of texts or now digging into every last nuance, especially after a month has passed.  It is what it is.  I stand by what I said about Shero and the fact that even with his mixed-bag tenure that didn't lead to tons of success on-ice while he was here and saw one too many of his moves not pay off, he did leave enough behind to help Fitz build a team that looks like it has a real chance to be plenty competitive for quite some time.  And like I said, Fitz deserves credit for taking some of what he inherited to make moves that we can all pretty much agree have mostly been very good.  Future's bright and I think the right GM is here at the right time.  Lots to be excited about.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 hour ago, Guadana said:

This offseason Fitz made his own good and questionable decisions. I like his depth building. But Devils could lost some scoring. Will see how it goes. His goalie decision is questionable too. I like his defensive decisions with Miller and Foote.  Yes, Graves and Severson are better duo than what we have with Hughes and Miller for now, but it`s understandable in this situatuin. He protected team with depth and expirience.

Devils are true contenders but with some questionable positions, will see if it will work against Devils or not and if it will, how Fitz will fix it.

Re:  "could lose some scoring"...only if there's injuries to key players.

Jack, Nico, and Bratt of course will all be here next year (and long beyond).

Timo will be here for his first full season as a Devil.

I think Dawson's production should be around where he was last season (but hopefully more consistent).

Based on the balance of Toffoli's last four seasons, I think about a 30 G and 30 A per 82 GP rate is a reasonable expectation.  Hard to imagine he won't be an upgrade over Tatar offensively.  

Fair to wonder if Haula winds up seeing Top 6 minutes with Jack again...also if Palat sees some Top 6, depending on who's hot when.

Even if Nico and Bratt's numbers fall back a little...I think Timo, Jack, and Toffoli should make up the difference.  The Devils should have a formidable Top 6.  Also won't hurt that the top penalty minute player in Wood is gone, and the player who trailed him (Brendan Smith) doesn't figure to play nearly as much as he did last season.  Devils should wind up taking less (bad) penalties than they did last season...less time killing penalties.

SO will the Devils match the 289 actual goals for (3.52 GPG) they scored last season?  I think they find a way to do at least that, even with Luke likely to have some rough patches as he adjusts to the NHL.

re:  the goaltending...if it becomes a problem during the season, I suspect that Fitz will try to address it.  I've said it elsewhere but I think that Fitz is trying very hard not to tie up too much money in his netminders...for as long as he can, anyway.