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Colorado Rockies 1976

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22 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

re:  the bolded, that's the thing...there's just no spot for him TO earn, and honestly I think that was almost entirely by design...specifically with the Toffoli acquisiton.  It wouldn't surprise me if Fitz has had that talk with Holtz already...with Fitz even holding himself accountable for how last year went for Holtz, and how this year is all about getting Holtz up to speed and fully ready to nail down a spot next year (there will be openings, with only eight forwards currently under contract for 2024-25).  

Think about it:  a top six of Jack, Nico, Timo, Bratt, Toffoli, and Dawson.  How is Holtz possibly cracking that group this year?  If anything it's almost like Fitz is saying "Don't even think about it kid.  Let's just worry about next season!"

BUT, if enough goes wrong, yeah, maybe he'll get a look this year.  But I honestly don't think that's Plan A.  

I'm sure you're right that it isn't plan A. In all honesty, I'm not expecting him to make much of an impact at camp.

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2 minutes ago, Aitchmack said:

I'm sure you're right that it isn't plan A. In all honesty, I'm not expecting him to make much of an impact at camp.

I'm not either...I think he needs lots of legit in-season game action first.

It's interesting, you've got some fans thinking he's got a legit shot to nail down a spot out of preseason, and others who think Fitz is going to take a much more cautious and deliberate approach.  I still believe that most of the evidence points to the latter, but we'll see.  

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On 7/31/2023 at 5:45 PM, devlman said:

Holtz is scoring 20 in the NHL this year. Playing on the third line with productive veterans like Haula and Palat will be just what he needs to play free with confidence. 15 mins a night with some PP time is perfect for him. Let home come in without all the pressure.

I hope he makes the roster on the third line.  He doesn’t have to be top 6 this upcoming season.  He could breakout on the third line and then they don’t have to resign Tyler next season.  If can’t make the roster out of camp, then he should definitely play in Utica.

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1 hour ago, Puckbuster said:

I hope he makes the roster on the third line.  He doesn’t have to be top 6 this upcoming season.  He could breakout on the third line and then they don’t have to resign Tyler next season.  If can’t make the roster out of camp, then he should definitely play in Utica.

We all hope he does but he's going to be under tremendous scrutiny by the Devs brass and even other teams (potential
trade partners).  I'm sure all this stuff he needs to improve on he didn't have to worry about growing up cuz he was always
the Kid with the Golden Shot. Playing top line/top PP, no PK etc.-all the things they want him to now learn at the NHL level.
 
He will get his chance but unless he improved his skating & defensive awareness-he's not what NJ needs from a
third line winger (good skater, 200 ft player, PK, scoring touch). Don't underestimate Graeme Clarke-probably
his main competition in house-had a great year at Utica and a more complete player.
 
There's no way they give up Shango (who is what they need NOW-perfect fit for their 3rd line)+3rd rounder
for 1 year of Toffoli. He will be re-signed for at least 2 yrs. 
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20 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I'm not either...I think he needs lots of legit in-season game action first.

It's interesting, you've got some fans thinking he's got a legit shot to nail down a spot out of preseason, and others who think Fitz is going to take a much more cautious and deliberate approach.  I still believe that most of the evidence points to the latter, but we'll see.  

It all depends on the McLeod situation.   If Fitzgerald is under the impression from McLeod that he was essentially just some sort of witness but not really involved in the Team Canada investigation beyond a deposition or something, then yeah, the math on the contracts suggests that he's planning to give Holtz another full year of development in Utica.  If he thinks he's about to lose McLeod for a significant amount of time then I think there's a huge opportunity to grab a 3rd line winger spot for Holtz (or Clarke)  Maybe Foote too but I kind of see Foote on the 4th line.  

On 7/31/2023 at 5:45 PM, devlman said:

Holtz is scoring 20 in the NHL this year. Playing on the third line with productive veterans like Haula and Palat will be just what he needs to play free with confidence. 15 mins a night with some PP time is perfect for him. Let home come in without all the pressure.

Exactly.  On paper this seems like something that could give us a legitimately dangerous third line and Fitz has talked about having a great top 9.      

10 hours ago, nessus said:

I would like to see more of this next season 

4:32 if it doesn't automatically start there

This would be beautiful for PP2   

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6 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

    This would be beautiful for PP2   


He scored that goal while with Severson on the point. Severson was PP2 for most of the year last year. I think with Severson gone and L. Hughes on the roster, I think PP 2 consists of L. Hughes and Holtz kind of patrolling the point in the 1-1-3. If Holtzy can stick that is. 

PP1 will be J.Hughes and Hamilton 

PP1: Hischier, Meier, Bratt, JHughes, Hammy
PP2: Haula, Palat, Toffoli, Holtz, LHughes

Edited by RizzMB30
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4 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

It all depends on the McLeod situation.   If Fitzgerald is under the impression from McLeod that he was essentially just some sort of witness but not really involved in the Team Canada investigation beyond a deposition or something, then yeah, the math on the contracts suggests that he's planning to give Holtz another full year of development in Utica.  If he thinks he's about to lose McLeod for a significant amount of time then I think there's a huge opportunity to grab a 3rd line winger spot for Holtz (or Clarke)  Maybe Foote too but I kind of see Foote on the 4th line.  

Exactly.  On paper this seems like something that could give us a legitimately dangerous third line and Fitz has talked about having a great top 9.      

This would be beautiful for PP2   

re:  Foote, I think Fitz & Co are opening to Foote being on the third or fourth line...depends on what he shows as preseason unfolds (he did bring some offense as a Comet last year, though I can't expect that to full translate to the NHL).  There's some 4th line depth in house with Lazar, Tierney, and Nosek being here.  I guess Clarke shouldn't be forgotten either, but right now it seems like Fitz wants to see what Foote can do first.

14 hours ago, Have Another Donut said:
We all hope he does but he's going to be under tremendous scrutiny by the Devs brass and even other teams (potential
trade partners).  I'm sure all this stuff he needs to improve on he didn't have to worry about growing up cuz he was always
the Kid with the Golden Shot. Playing top line/top PP, no PK etc.-all the things they want him to now learn at the NHL level.
 
He will get his chance but unless he improved his skating & defensive awareness-he's not what NJ needs from a
third line winger (good skater, 200 ft player, PK, scoring touch). Don't underestimate Graeme Clarke-probably
his main competition in house-had a great year at Utica and a more complete player.
 
There's no way they give up Shango (who is what they need NOW-perfect fit for their 3rd line)+3rd rounder
for 1 year of Toffoli. He will be re-signed for at least 2 yrs. 

The only thing that I don't agree with the Sharangovich being a guy the Devils need...he was simply not good enough last year, in a year where he was playing for both another contract AND to prove that he could be a part of this thing.  He's one of the guys who deservedly got left behind.

Re:  Toffoli, I think signing him to an extension is possible, but as a Plan B.  I think the Plan A is for Holtz to take Toffoli's spot in 2024-25...or at least for him to be ready enough that even with growing pains, giving Holtz an every game Top 6 role won't feel like a major risk.  If Toffoli's re-signed, to me it signals Fitz starting to give up on Holtz.

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24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

re:  Foote, I think Fitz & Co are opening to Foote being on the third or fourth line...depends on what he shows as preseason unfolds (he did bring some offense as a Comet last year, though I can't expect that to full translate to the NHL).  There's some 4th line depth in house with Lazar, Tierney, and Nosek being here.  I guess Clarke shouldn't be forgotten either, but right now it seems like Fitz wants to see what Foote can do first.

The only thing that I don't agree with the Sharangovich being a guy the Devils need...he was simply not good enough last year, in a year where he was playing for both another contract AND to prove that he could be a part of this thing.  He's one of the guys who deservedly got left behind.

Re:  Toffoli, I think signing him to an extension is possible, but as a Plan B.  I think the Plan A is for Holtz to take Toffoli's spot in 2024-25...or at least for him to be ready enough that even with growing pains, giving Holtz an every game Top 6 role won't feel like a major risk.  If Toffoli's re-signed, to me it signals Fitz starting to give up on Holtz.

OK I should have said-a guy like Shango, with his skill set-is what's needed for their 3rd line.  Holtz was drafted as a top six player and on this particular team he doesn't fit well whereas a guy like Mercer is a great fit because of his speed, tenacity, overall smarts, defensive awareness/offensive skills/flair etc etc.  As others have mentioned before-Holtz not playing much at all last year was a bad move by the Devs.  He does need to play-somewhere to grow his game.  If he doesn't make the team out of camp he needs to play 20 minutes a night at Utica in all situations-pk/pp/top 3 lines/etc etc. come back strong for the playoffs or be used in a deal for another power forward type.

Yes, Shango had an off year, but I think being from a different culture/language (Belorussia right in the thick of the mess over there) with a young wife/new baby/possible other family concerns-that's some very very serious stuff.  I was willing to give him another year to get back on track -he's a proven goal scorer and has a variety of other skills and still pretty young/developing.  And I will miss Santagovich:  "You are Bratt-you get coal"....(I don't think either one of them got that).

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3 minutes ago, Have Another Donut said:

OK I should have said-a guy like Shango, with his skill set-is what's needed for their 3rd line.  Holtz was drafted as a top six player and on this particular team he doesn't fit well whereas a guy like Mercer is a great fit because of his speed, tenacity, overall smarts, defensive awareness/offensive skills/flair etc etc.  As others have mentioned before-Holtz not playing much at all last year was a bad move by the Devs.  He does need to play-somewhere to grow his game.  If he doesn't make the team out of camp he needs to play 20 minutes a night at Utica in all situations-pk/pp/top 3 lines/etc etc. come back strong for the playoffs or be used in a deal for another power forward type.

Yes, Shango had an off year, but I think being from a different culture/language (Belorussia right in the thick of the mess over there) with a young wife/new baby/possible other family concerns-that's some very very serious stuff.  I was willing to give him another year to get back on track -he's a proven goal scorer and has a variety of other skills and still pretty young/developing.  And I will miss Santagovich:  "You are Bratt-you get coal"....(I don't think either one of them got that).

Yeah I agree re:  Holtz...he needs to PLAY...if not here, then in Utica.  There can't be another year like last season, but I think everyone is in agreement on that part.

I can't call Sharangovich a "proven goal scorer" when he scored 24 goals one time.  In his three seasons so far, he's scored 21 goals per 82 GP...that was definitely enough to earn him another look (which he'll get with the Flames, who with that two-year, $3.1 million AAV deal have given him a nice vote of confidence).  Now we'll see if he can at least match his career-to-date rate, and improve some other apsects of his game.  He's young but not THAT young...he's now 25.  He's about where Andreas Johnsson was, in that he showed enough to get a pretty nice deal at one point, but now the question is what does he do next?  What exactly will he be?  The Flames (like the Devils with Johnsson) will be the team to find out, good, bad or in-between.

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11 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah I agree re:  Holtz...he needs to PLAY...if not here, then in Utica.  There can't be another year like last season, but I think everyone is in agreement on that part.

I can't call Sharangovich a "proven goal scorer" when he scored 24 goals one time.  In his three seasons so far, he's scored 21 goals per 82 GP...that was definitely enough to earn him another look (which he'll get with the Flames, who with that two-year, $3.1 million AAV deal have given him a nice vote of confidence).  Now we'll see if he can at least match his career-to-date rate, and improve some other apsects of his game.  He's young but not THAT young...he's now 25.  He's about where Andreas Johnsson was, in that he showed enough to get a pretty nice deal at one point, but now the question is what does he do next?  What exactly will he be?  The Flames (like the Devils with Johnsson) will be the team to find out, good, bad or in-between.

Wow tough crowd...lol.  OK how about he's capable of scoring 20+ goals -since he actually did it.  He's a more versatile player than Mango IMO. And also IMO they need a 3rd line guy who can skate/pk/200 ft player with some size /responsible/chip in 15+goals/move up lines if needed.  Who could that be now?  I don't think Holtz fits that.  I think Graeme Clarke maybe- or a trade will be made during the season for that guy.      

"young but not THAT young...he's now 25"         25 is not that young???? Woe is me.....🤢     

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4 hours ago, Have Another Donut said:

Wow tough crowd...lol.  OK how about he's capable of scoring 20+ goals -since he actually did it.  He's a more versatile player than Mango IMO. And also IMO they need a 3rd line guy who can skate/pk/200 ft player with some size /responsible/chip in 15+goals/move up lines if needed.  Who could that be now?  I don't think Holtz fits that.  I think Graeme Clarke maybe- or a trade will be made during the season for that guy.      

"young but not THAT young...he's now 25"         25 is not that young???? Woe is me.....🤢     

I wasn’t comparing his skillset to Johnsson…more his situation.  Basically did enough to get a contract worth over $3 million in AAV (based in part on promise), but still not really sure exactly what he is, so what comes next?  Does he do enough to earn at least that much after this one expires?  Or is he taking less than $1 million the next time, the way that Johnsson just did?

And that’s the thing…at 25, with many players you do already have some idea of what you’re getting from them.  Sharangovich didn’t follow up last year as hoped…if he did, he’d still be here.  So just as the Leafs soured on Johnsson but found someone else to take on his money in the Devils, the Devils decided to move on from Sharangovich, but the Flames were willing to pay him some loot to take a chance on him.  Now it’s up to Yegor.

 

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3 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I wasn’t comparing his skillset to Johnsson…more his situation.  Basically did enough to get a contract worth over $3 million in AAV (based in part on promise), but still not really sure exactly what he is, so what comes next?  Does he do enough to earn at least that much after this one expires?  Or is he taking less than $1 million the next time, the way that Johnsson just did?

And that’s the thing…at 25, with many players you do already have some idea of what you’re getting from them.  Sharangovich didn’t follow up last year as hoped…if he did, he’d still be here.  So just as the Leafs soured on Johnsson but found someone else to take on his money in the Devils, the Devils decided to move on from Sharangovich, but the Flames were willing to pay him some loot to take a chance on him.  Now it’s up to Yegor.

 

Back to Holtz.  I think he and Clarke get to show what they can do for the first half of the season but my gut tells me Devs make a trade for a notable winger with size and jam and enough skill to play 2nd line because as unlikely as it was just a year ago-they are now legit cup contenders. 

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13 hours ago, Have Another Donut said:

Back to Holtz.  I think he and Clarke get to show what they can do for the first half of the season but my gut tells me Devs make a trade for a notable winger with size and jam and enough skill to play 2nd line because as unlikely as it was just a year ago-they are now legit cup contenders. 

Yeah said it before but I think Holtz having a future with the Devils is about 50-50.  I can absolutely see him going as part of a package for a relatively young (say 26-28 years old) second-liner type who's cost-controlled for 3-4 years and would give the Devils more of a "guarantee" than Holtz, as far as knowing what you'll be getting from that new player.  The idea would also be not to have to wait for Holtz to develop...even if he were to make the team either this year or next, I wouldn't expect him to just start putting up numbers.  He'll probably need a couple of seasons before he'd start to produce as hoped...but he seems like one of those players who simply never will never quite live up to his promise...once he becomes an NHLer, he'll tease better numbers from time to time, but won't quite get over the hump, in terms of what you're REALLY hoping to see from him. 

Not saying he 100% can't ever live up to his sniper potential, but Fitz might simply decide to let some other team find that out for themselves, especially if he can get someone more proven in the interim.  

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7 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah said it before but I think Holtz having a future with the Devils is about 50-50.  I can absolutely see him going as part of a package for a relatively young (say 26-28 years old) second-liner type who's cost-controlled for 3-4 years and would give the Devils more of a "guarantee" than Holtz, as far as knowing what you'll be getting from that new player.  The idea would also be not to have to wait for Holtz to develop...even if he were to make the team either this year or next, I wouldn't expect him to just start putting up numbers.  He'll probably need a couple of seasons before he'd start to produce as hoped...but he seems like one of those players who simply never will never quite live up to his promise...once he becomes an NHLer, he'll tease better numbers from time to time, but won't quite get over the hump, in terms of what you're REALLY hoping to see from him. 

Not saying he 100% can't ever live up to his sniper potential, but Fitz might simply decide to let some other team find that out for themselves, especially if he can get someone more proven in the interim.  

Yup. 100% agree.  They're in win now mode-no time for on the job training except for Luke (and Nemec who they don't have to rush).  I'd go after Lawson Crouse  6'4"  215, 26yrs, $4.6 for the next 4 years.  Maybe they can send them Holtz+2 prospects and a 3rd and/or 4th.     Crouse can play 1st, 2nd or 3rd line.  Dude is a monster-The Sheriff.    

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5 hours ago, Have Another Donut said:

Yup. 100% agree.  They're in win now mode-no time for on the job training except for Luke (and Nemec who they don't have to rush).  I'd go after Lawson Crouse  6'4"  215, 26yrs, $4.6 for the next 4 years.  Maybe they can send them Holtz+2 prospects and a 3rd and/or 4th.     Crouse can play 1st, 2nd or 3rd line.  Dude is a monster-The Sheriff.    

Seems like a lot to give up for Crouse…guess it depends on who else goes with Holtz to Arizona.  I’d like to see a little more offense out of him, but at least that part of his game is trending up over the past two seasons.  And yeah, pretty affordable hit, with bargain potential.  It’s an intriguing name to think about…Devils would be getting what figure to be his very best seasons.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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On 8/3/2023 at 9:55 AM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Not saying he 100% can't ever live up to his sniper potential, but Fitz might simply decide to let some other team find that out for themselves, especially if he can get someone more proven in the interim.  

Nashville

As part of a package to snag one of their goalies

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6 hours ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

Nashville

As part of a package to snag one of their goalies

Saros would probably cost the Devils Mercer.  That guy is REALLY good.  If Fitz actually dared to trade for him now, he’d get him for two cost-controlled seasons at a very reasonable hit (only $5 million AAV).  Beyond that, assuming he plays as well the next two years as he did over the prior two years, he’ll be due for a mega-raise, for what will be his Age 30 and beyond seasons.

I wouldn’t do it and I don’t think Fitz would do it (I think he’s REALLY trying to avoid paying top collar for a goalie), but man that would be a hell of netminder to have for the next couple of seasons.  

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2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Saros would probably cost the Devils Mercer.  That guy is REALLY good.  If Fitz actually dared to trade for him now, he’d get him for two cost-controlled seasons at a very reasonable hit (only $5 million AAV).  Beyond that, assuming he plays as well the next two years as he did over the prior two years, he’ll be due for a mega-raise, for what will be his Age 30 and beyond seasons.

I wouldn’t do it and I don’t think Fitz would do it (I think he’s REALLY trying to avoid paying top collar for a goalie), but man that would be a hell of netminder to have for the next couple of seasons.  

I’d rather trade for Askarov; there were rumors he could be available. He’d be less expensive (although still expensive) in terms of what we’d have to give up because he isn’t proven. 

Edited by MadDog2020
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55 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

I’d rather trade for Askarov; there were rumors he could be available. He’d be less expensive (although still expensive) in terms of what we’d have to give up because he isn’t proven. 

It probably makes more sense for the Preds to stand pat, until they have a better sense of how close Askarov is to being able to become a #1 goalie.  But Saros with two years of team control at a manageable hit could definitely bring a solid return.  

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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