Any Plumbers?

[aylbert]

Tell them they are full of sh*t (and have them install a new meter as Dew said). You are using more water a month than an average family would in 5 years --- not kidding.

I use this water usage to estimate: http://www.tampagov.net/dept_water/conserv..._calculator.asp

With that much excess water, you wouldnt just notice the ground wet, your house would have been water logged and collapsed if 150,000 gallons of water is "leaking" into your house in non-obvious locations (like the foundation). You also wouldnt have any water from you faucets, etc.

[point]

A typical household uses 50-80,000 gallons a year.

I ran these numbers when I was town treasurer and did some research on the municipal water billing

Your house can hold 121,481.48 gallons, according to my calculations.

I am surprised they didn't come and check the meter right off.

Good luck.

[sammyk]

A typical household uses 50-80,000 gallons a year.

I ran these numbers when I was town treasurer and did some research on the municipal water billing

Your house can hold 121,481.48 gallons, according to my calculations.

I am surprised they didn't come and check the meter right off.

Good luck.

Actually they did check the meter after they told me I used 50,000 gallons in January. They said it looked fine but that's all, looked, didn't do anything to it. Said the flow was steady though.

I need more ammo just incase. If there was a leak how big of a leak would it have to be to use 100,000 in one month? Obviously it won't be a gusher.

Another question, if there is a hidden leak, like in a wall, will a wall fill with water, and how long before the sheetrock breaks down?

Also, thanks for that calculation. Not exact as it seems as my house is slightly larger than 2000 sq ft. and some ceilings are higher than others. That and it doesn't include the garage and attic but it is definitely something to consider as that is a LOT of water!

EDIT: Missed Dew's and aylberts post. I will definitely be calling them tomorrow and giving them an earful. I can't even imagine what my bill is for all this water. This is just ridiculous. Will keep y'all updated. Thanks for all the advise!

Edited March 10, 2006 by sammyk

[sammyk]

aylbert, I put in high figures in that link you gave me, came out to less than 40K a year!

[sammyk]

OK, so I called the city. They said that the meter has been checked twice now and that they don't speed up they slow down when something goes wrong.

I was told to have my water softner checked. I asked what if nothing was found and she was pretty confident that something will be found.

Now I've never had a water softner before I moved here so I really know nothing about them. If they are not kept filled with salt can something like this happen? I have to admit that I have not paid attention to it and just noticed there's no salt in it.

[Swede]

hm, were talking about 3,47 gallons/minute here (counting 150000/month) 24/7 I'd think that you would notice that

Counting 100000/month it's only 2,31 gallons/minute

[RowdyFan42]

If it can't get the water soft enough, will it discard it? I don't know anything about water softeners either, but if there truly is something wrong with it and that was the end result, that would explain why you'd go through so much water without knowing it.

If it turns out the softener's fine, I think you're at the point where you need to seek the services of an attorney.

[sammyk]

hm, were talking about 3,47 gallons/minute here (counting 150000/month) 24/7 I'd think that you would notice that

Counting 100000/month it's only 2,31 gallons/minute

Hmm...2.3 gallons a minute. That doesn't sound that unbelievable. Maybe it is the water softener. I read some water softeners run at 8 GPM. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

If it can't get the water soft enough, will it discard it? I don't know anything about water softeners either, but if there truly is something wrong with it and that was the end result, that would explain why you'd go through so much water without knowing it.

If it turns out the softener's fine, I think you're at the point where you need to seek the services of an attorney.

Honestly, I hope a problem is found just so I can get this taken care of. I would probably wind up paying more for a lawyer than replacing the plumbing in my house.

[mddevsfan]

Hmm...2.3 gallons a minute. That doesn't sound that unbelievable. Maybe it is the water softener. I read some water softeners run at 8 GPM. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Honestly, I hope a problem is found just so I can get this taken care of. I would probably wind up paying more for a lawyer than replacing the plumbing in my house.

It is 100% impossible that this is a leak. The only possibility I can see besides a bad meter is the water softener. 2.3 GPM is a pretty heavy flow, I think you would actually be able to HEAR the water running through the softener at that rate. Have you actually examined the softener? Listen to hear if it's running. If it seems to be running non-stop, I'd get someone to check it out. If not, you should tell the water company where to stick it.

[sammyk]

It doesn't run non-stop, something I tried to explain to the city. They said if the meter was faulty it would run slow and not fast. I have now simply pulled the plug on the softner and thrown the bypass valve. We'll see at the end of the month what my water usage is. I guess I'll just have to deal with some hard water stains for a month.

Oddly enough, I've been wanting to change out the water softner (for no particular reason, just to have a new one) since I bought the house but since it seemed to be working I never bothered.

[StarDew]

Sammy...make them change the meter...there should be no cost....demand it...compare these readings with the new meter...be assertive...I tell ya they will always blame the customer...where else you going to get water...I swear when I get build my house it will be green and I mean green, right down to rain and well water and a ground water heat pump, solar panels, recyled water, recycled whatever I can...I want to use as little as possible that utilities provide in these areas...I don't even want to sell them back anything

[sammyk]

Dew, before I make a demand I am going to eliminate one of their so called causes of this water usage. I don't want them changing the meter only to have the same problem and then charging me for that meter change. I have unplugged my water softener and will see what my bill is after a month. If it is still ridiculous I will certainly be demanding a meter change. I just wish I had done this at the beginning of February.

[annabelle]

This makes absolutely no sense! My parents have a water softener at their house and they do not use even close to that amount of water for 4 people, a pool and inground sprinklers. Something isn't right...but i have no clue what it is...hmmm i'm really useful aren't i?

[sammyk]

Anna, the city isn't saying I am using that much water because I have a water softner, I mean everyone down here has one and I had no problems with it for over year since I moved in. They just feel something may be wrong with it. So now I have shut it off to prove them wrong...or right.

[chrisg19]

I took the below from a site called "How Stuff Works"

The idea behind a water softener is simple. The calcium and magnesium ions in the water are replaced with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard water are eliminated. To do the ion replacement, the water in the house runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads or zeolite are covered with sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads or zeolite contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads or zeolite.

Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or beads (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. The remaining brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a drain pipe. Regeneration can create a lot of salty water, by the way -- something like 25 gallons (95 liters).

I have two questions for you.

Have you been going through an inordinantly large amount of salt, because the softener uses water when it backflushes so if it were constantly running you would be using large amounts of salt.

The second question is where does your softener discharge it's water after a backflush? If it is outside the house above grade, you would see that very large amount of wasted water. If it is into the township sewer again that is a huge amount, and I think you would see it.

Is the meter constantly spinning, and does the spinning change when the softener is bypassed?

I don't think it is possible that you can use 150,000 gallons of water in a month, and not see obvious signs of a leak somewhere. The soil in my neighborhood is very sandy, and when my pool leaked this spring the water made it's way to the surface from approximately 6 feet below grade. You would see evidence of a leak somewhere.

Like some of the others here I think your problem lies with the meter.

chris

[sammyk]

Chris, I read that HowStuffWorks article too. To be honest, I always forget to use salt so the salt hold was empty as can be. I have no idea when I filled it last and I usually don't get too much at once as it's a pain in the ass and doesn't fit in my car really.

As for the discharge, it doesn't drain out in my yard or anything and seems to go to the city sewer. Not sure how I would see that though.

I will hafta look at the meter, it is near the street under a steel cover. I'll have to run that experiment. However I was told that the meter is spinning pretty steady and not abnormally fast.

EDIT: Bah!

Edited March 14, 2006 by sammyk

[mddevsfan]

If the softener has no salt like you said, is it possible that the softener would backflush over and over again, because of the lack of sodium? Maybe that's the problem? If a backflush is truly about 25 gallons, that would only take 5-6 backflushes per hour to get you to 100,000 gallons for the month. I have no idea how long one of these backflushes would take, but if a ten minute cycle is realistic, then that could be your problem. Of course, I'm not even sure if a softener that is out of salt WOULD repeatedly backflush, or if it would sit there.

[sammyk]

Ah crap, if you're right then it's my fault and I'm stuck with this $600 water bill.

What you say does make sense. I suppose it would try to keep recharging.

I guess it's gonna be tuna and pasta for a while. Anyone wanna buy some die cast airplanes, like maybe $600 worth?

[Devilish34]

I have a W.S. and will back wask based on usage and the salt level has no effect on that.

Do you know who installed your w.s. ?

[mddevsfan]

I have a W.S. and will back wask based on usage and the salt level has no effect on that.

Do you know who installed your w.s. ?

Ah, I see. I've never had one, so I'm not really sure what triggers the unit to backflush.

I think we're back to a bad meter, then.

[chrisg19]

Yes a water softener does not monitor whether you have salt or not, instead there is a meter that measures the water usage, and then at preset intervals performs it's backflush. Maybe the meter on the softener is stuck. either way if you have it bypassed right now you'll see if the softener had any effect.

chris

[nj96]

You meter is at the street? I've only seen them either at or in the house, depending where the disconnect is.

If the meter is in the street, maybe it's possible that there's a leak between the street and your house. Are you on a hill? Is the water table near the surface? Is it possible that it's leaking somewhere between your house and the street and just seeping down into the ground?

If you have a disconnect at your house, turn off the water and check the meter. It shouldn't turn at all.

Good luck tracking it down!

-Dan

[Devilish34]

Ah, I see. I've never had one, so I'm not really sure what triggers the unit to backflush.

I think we're back to a bad meter, then.

Alll systems are slightly diff our system also changes the PH (btw we have well water)

It looks like a mad scientist chem set.

[sammyk]

You meter is at the street? I've only seen them either at or in the house, depending where the disconnect is.

If the meter is in the street, maybe it's possible that there's a leak between the street and your house. Are you on a hill? Is the water table near the surface? Is it possible that it's leaking somewhere between your house and the street and just seeping down into the ground?

If you have a disconnect at your house, turn off the water and check the meter. It shouldn't turn at all.

Good luck tracking it down!

-Dan

Yah it's under a mini man-hole cover along with my neighbors meter. I'm not on a hill, or najor incline (Click For Pic). The meter is around where I was standing when I took that.

No idea about the water table. I figure if there was a leak there would be a green spot and after 150,000 gallons things would be rather swamplike. The city also poked a metal rod into the ground around the meter and then in another area and the soil moisture was the same.

Do you know who installed your w.s. ?

Previous owner. It's a Kenmore.

---

Anyone know how much it costs to get one installed if you have the plumbing already in place?

[njdevils_info]

Yah it's under a mini man-hole cover along with my neighbors meter. I'm not on a hill, or najor incline (Click For Pic). The meter is around where I was standing when I took that.

No idea about the water table. I figure if there was a leak there would be a green spot and after 150,000 gallons things would be rather swamplike. The city also poked a metal rod into the ground around the meter and then in another area and the soil moisture was the same.

Previous owner. It's a Kenmore.

---

Anyone know how much it costs to get one installed if you have the plumbing already in place?

That's a pretty green lawn you have their sammy ;-)

I can't tell you what the price of a new water softener is - all I have is another question. You see I used to have a water softener at my house, but we first bypassed it for a number of years, and when we got our furnace replaced, they took it completely out.

So I was curious whats the benefit of having one? I just figured it was the appendix of a household plumbing installation: its nice to have but it can function just fine without one.