Lou and Sutter are delusional

[msweet]

Well for those who know me for the years I've been out here on the board, and my title, "voice of reason"... I am slow to issue verdict... and I have stayed basically silent about the nature of the team this year... but after yesterday, the combination of the trade deadline and the game last night, I think its time to rant.

I apologize in advance for the length of this.

WTF is Lou thinking? I'm starting to think he is believing his own B.S. Does anyone think this current Devils team is that good, that a Hossa, Campbell, etc. wouldn't have helped. Lockeroom chemistry doesn't score goals. Do Sutter and Lou think this team would be above .500 if Weekes, who is a descent NHL goalie, were the starter. Lou and Sutter, Hello, the whole team is Martin Brodeur. Get real, please.

Now I may be proven wrong, when the Devils reach the finals, but I'll bet some serious dough that this team is a first round exit. Our winning streaks were a combination of some good luck, some good scheduling and a lot of Martin Brodeur. (Think about the current 5 game streak)

Where was Sutter ranting when we stole that game from Washington? His blaming Greene last night was some of the biggest chump crvp I've seen from a coach in along time. Greene is basically a rookie. Why did you sit millions of dollars worth of defensemen (Rachunek & VV) and play 2 inexperienced players together, no less ... and have them out there when the game is on the line against the other's team's top line? Greene's fault or coaches fault? Who was Greene's partner?

Why wasn't Sutter calling out his forwards making like a total of $30 mil per on not even generating one scoring chance until the 3rd period (Gionta's goal was garbage and luck)? Do Lou and Sutter think our offense is good enough? I hate to say it, but read (N)Єverson this AM... he's dead on.

So what is Lou doing? I'm guessing he's just delusional or he's deceitful. Delusional, if he thinks this team is getting out of the first round (without Marty going wild). Deceitful if he really knows this team svcks and just is playing for next year (when some of the younger players are progressing like Tri has spoken about here)... and if the latter is the case, why play Brodeur so much?

So the only thing I can conclude, is that Lou has made a big miscalculation and Sutter doesn't know what he's doing. Martin Brodeur should win the Jack Adams and the award for the best GM is sport. Other than draft Martin Brodeur and Scott Niedermayer, steal Scott Stevens, what great things has Lou really done?

It seems the Devils have become a put Marty in goal, and let's make believe we have a great hockey team in front of him.

I hate to say it, but my Devils have become a boring, one-goalie show...going nowhere, with a delusional GM.

But I still love them.

Oh and on a final note: The trade for El Salvador, on paper, is a good one... but after all of this locker room chemistry talk, trading him was hypocritical... and why do that with a fan favorite, to barely (if at all) improve your team?

[squishyx]

The asking price for those players was high, what would you do, sacrifice the future for the present? thats never been Lou's style and its been tremendously successful. He said he tried to get a deal done and couldn't, you don't know what other gm's might have been asking. What if it was some package of parise + 1st pick and corrente? I wouldn't make that deal.

what great things has Lou really done?

[nycnjd]

I think your assessment of the team is a little harsh, and your assessment of Lou's long-term impact of the organization even harsher. We do not win three Cups without him, and there's no one I'd rather have as GM.

It's true that the fortunes of this team mostly begin and end with Brodeur, but it's likely that the asking price of a Hossa or Campbell player was too much.

I will, however, fault Lou for not moving one of our defensemen.

[Devils731]

You're completely off base. The Devils are first in the conference and you want to call out Lou and Sutter? The team is better positioned for next season. Any big move they could have made this season wasn't going to make the team better by enough and was going to make it worse for the next 2 or 3 years, IMO.

Our winning streaks were a combination of some good luck, some good scheduling and a lot of Martin Brodeur. (Think about the current 5 game streak)

[msweet]

The asking price for those players was high, what would you do, sacrifice the future for the present? thats never been Lou's style and its been tremendously successful. He said he tried to get a deal done and couldn't, you don't know what other gm's might have been asking. What if it was some package of parise + 1st pick and corrente? I wouldn't make that deal.

Are you on crack?

Those players were just examples, not specific players I would want... I'm not a GM. And yes, I think given the nature of the team, and trying to win while Marty can play, what future are we speaking of? What players in the future pipeline are coming? Marty will single-handedly keep us low in the draft.

And I use the word "great", not good, not very good, not excellent.

And I do not, nor have I ever used drugs.. and just because I questioned the great Lou and the inexperienced Sutter, and you disagree, doesn't mean I am wrong or crazy or on drugs.

There is a lot to question as we move 5+ years away from our last "lucky Cup"

[msweet]

I think your assessment of the team is a little harsh, and your assessment of Lou's long-term impact of the organization even harsher. We do not win three Cups without him, and there's no one I'd rather have as GM.

It's true that the fortunes of this team mostly begin and end with Brodeur, but it's likely that the asking price of a Hossa or Campbell player was too much.

I will, however, fault Lou for not moving one of our defensemen.

I agree with your analysis of my analysis... I was making a point of discussion... sort of a counterpoint.

[SC Devs Fan]

I think the shine is somewhat off Lou as our recent drafts haven't been great and his vision in signing FAs is, at best, horrible. I do applaud him for not making a panic move and giving up too much for a rental... unless we see what these teams wanted for a Campbell or Hossa then I will give Lou the benefit of the doubt, he earned it.

I still believe we should have traded Gomez at the deadline last year as we knew he wasn't going to return and we got squat for him... but as I got told how stupid I was for saying that last year many times I'll just let that rant slide into the abyss...

[squishyx]

Those players were just examples, not specific players I would want... I'm not a GM. And yes, I think given the nature of the team, and trying to win while Marty can play, what future are we speaking of? What players in the future pipeline are coming? Marty will single-handedly keep us low in the draft.

And I use the word "great", not good, not very good, not excellent.

And I do not, nor have I ever used drugs.. and just because I questioned the great Lou and the inexperienced Sutter, and you disagree, doesn't mean I am wrong or crazy or on drugs.

There is a lot to question as we move 5+ years away from our last "lucky Cup"

[Triumph]

What great things has Lou done? Well, he hasn't done *that* many lately, I admit. But let's review, of the players on the roster, some of the great things he's done.

Traded up in the 2003 draft to get Zach Parise. This was an absolute theft. Parise is at least one of the top 10 players to come out of the draft, and probably in the top 5.

Signed Johnny Oduya from Sweden as a no-risk, high-reward signing last off-season. Oduya has been tremendous in recent weeks.

Signed Mike Mottau and trusted him to play in the NHL. I can't stand Mottau but he's done very well this season.

Traded up in the 1998 draft to get Brian Gionta.

Signed John Madden as an undrafted free agent.

Signed Jamie Langenbrunner to a 5 year deal worth almost 3 million a year. Here's Langenbrunner's numbers since signing that deal, playoffs included:

139 GP, 36 G, 68 A, 104 P - oh and he's the captain of the team.

I'd rave about Zubrus but he scores a goal once a month. The guy seems to always be just out of reach of rebounds, it's uncanny. Zubrus's worth will be shown in playoff games, though - he draws a ton of penalties, and makes life difficult for opposing defensemen.

Anyway, I wasn't happy that Lou basically stood pat yesterday, but none of the rental players interested me. Bernier and a 1st is a huge price to pay for Brian Campbell - the Devils don't really have a player like Bernier sitting around. Other than the Gionta for Havlat deal which I would've preferred, or the Stuart for a 2nd and 4th deal, nothing that went down yesterday made me say 'oh man, the Devils could've and should've done that.'

This isn't the year, anyway. It's great how well the team is doing this year, but this is still not the team to go for it all. Another draft, another year to store up potential trading chips.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Triumph

[UnderDogX]

I'm gonna have to jump on board with MSweet on this one...don't get me wrong Lou is a mastermind at some things and has pretty much ruled the art of getting the most out of a little but its waining...each year we lose this player and that without adding much and are expected to be better than the previous year which illogical and highly improbable. We are doing well right now and as most would point out anyone could win the Cup...with luck, getting hot, and a goalie like Marty we have a better chance than some...but the complete lack of movement by the Devils during the trade deadline was disappointing at the very least...

With all of the praise and thanks we give Lou for what he has done these comments as well as MSweets are sure to get blown off or criticized but what can anyone really say that Lou has done within the last few years to truly improve this team and put it as a real Cup contender....

And I'm not talking about what restrictions he's had or lack of this and lack of that...Lou put this team together and it is what it is...I just want to know who can answer that question...what has Lou done recently to make this team BETTER than it was the previous year?

[Devils731]

what has Lou done recently to make this team BETTER than it was the previous year?

A team can't make every season for 15 years the year they go for it. The Devils look great for the next few seasons, they'll have younger players improving and cap flexibility. I'm sure Lou feels awful that he had to pause for a season or two to let the prospect pipeline grow a little before trading future for another cup run. He only is first in the eastern conference when I think a lot of naysayers were pretty convinced a month ago that the Devils were going to be struggling for the 8 seed right now.

The conference goal differential are NJD at 21, Mon at 20, Ott at 18, Pitt at 17, Phi at 10, Buf at 10, NYR at 8. This team has the best goal differential in the conference, so I don't know if the team is better than last year or not but you can make a great case that they've had the best season in the eastern conference to this point.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

What great things has Lou done? Well, he hasn't done *that* many lately, I admit. But let's review, of the players on the roster, some of the great things he's done.

Traded up in the 2003 draft to get Zach Parise. This was an absolute theft. Parise is at least one of the top 10 players to come out of the draft, and probably in the top 5.

Signed Johnny Oduya from Sweden as a no-risk, high-reward signing last off-season. Oduya has been tremendous in recent weeks.

Signed Mike Mottau and trusted him to play in the NHL. I can't stand Mottau but he's done very well this season.

Traded up in the 1998 draft to get Brian Gionta.

Signed John Madden as an undrafted free agent.

Signed Jamie Langenbrunner to a 5 year deal worth almost 3 million a year. Here's Langenbrunner's numbers since signing that deal, playoffs included:

139 GP, 36 G, 68 A, 104 P - oh and he's the captain of the team.

I'd rave about Zubrus but he scores a goal once a month. The guy seems to always be just out of reach of rebounds, it's uncanny. Zubrus's worth will be shown in playoff games, though - he draws a ton of penalties, and makes life difficult for opposing defensemen.

Anyway, I wasn't happy that Lou basically stood pat yesterday, but none of the rental players interested me. Bernier and a 1st is a huge price to pay for Brian Campbell - the Devils don't really have a player like Bernier sitting around. Other than the Gionta for Havlat deal which I would've preferred, or the Stuart for a 2nd and 4th deal, nothing that went down yesterday made me say 'oh man, the Devils could've and should've done that.'

And for those who didn't become Devil fans until the late 90s and don't remember:

Corey Millen for Neal Broten...Devils don't win '95 Cup without Broten's contributions...and without his 28 pts in 30 GP after that trade in the regular season, the Devils might not even have made the playoffs that year.

Semak and Hankinson for Cole and Chambers...Chambers was also very helpful during that Cup run.

Muller and Melanson for Richer and Chorske...Muller did help the Canadiens win a Cup in '93, and Richer could be a pain in the ass, but he did play well at times and also was a key contributor to the '95 Cup run.

He got Stevens because he presented a flawless case in front of the arbitrator. Almost every observer thought Lou was nuts for asking for Stevens as compensation for Shanahan. No one thought he had a chance to land Stevens. Although I maintain the league was trying to teach the Blues a lesson, Lou's thorough presentation allowed them to award Stevens.

Sylvain Turgeon for Claude Lemieux.

I didn't see that "How could the Devils have missed out on that guy?!" deal either. And it always cracks me up when "experts" start anointing deadline winners and losers based on names. Can we at least see how these guys perform for their new teams before handing out the final grades?

[Triumph]

Well, San Jose and Pittsburgh are undoubtedly winners. Thing about Pittsburgh is, while Conklin leads the league in save percentage, who knows if he's for real.

Still annoys me that Brian Gionta is a Devil but what can you do?

[CRASHER]

Honestly I'd be more pissed off as a Penguins fan then anything else right now??

Hossa??? Tissue Paper soft in the playoffs... gave up a fvck-ton to get him and STILL doesn't address the GAPING HOLES in my team

Ditto Phily as well

and it's easy to sit here behind our computers and piss and whine about lack of trades (AGAIN, I swear deadline day and July 1, people should just save their bitch-fests from the year before and copy/paste them )... we DON'T KNOW what it would have cost or what was offered over the last few weeks... and not that there is an arsenal of prospects (which makes keeping the draft picks we DO have all the more important)

you can't keep going balls-out year after year without stopping to re-tool the cupboard

and like it keeps being said here.. Marty's 35 now... the window may be closing... I'd rather lines up my eggs in a basket for a quality run, then blow my load on a shot in the dark or a guy I know folds in the playoffs (Hossa)

but I had my sights on 2nd round this year at the start... stay the course... stay the course

the best thing to say about this year is certain players on this team are developing ahead of the curve I'd have expected this year (ok then there's Andy Greene, but he's still young)

[UnderDogX]

A team can't make every season for 15 years the year they go for it. The Devils look great for the next few seasons, they'll have younger players improving and cap flexibility. I'm sure Lou feels awful that he had to pause for a season or two to let the prospect pipeline grow a little before trading future for another cup run. He only is first in the eastern conference when I think a lot of naysayers were pretty convinced a month ago that the Devils were going to be struggling for the 8 seed right now.

I'll agree with this. I understand it's gotta be a difficult situation for the Devils to be in...on the cusp of being good enough but still not there...so it keeps the draft picks high but puts us one and done in the playoffs...I just think with the fact that we lose player after player with really no compensation it gives the illusion that Lou thinks this team is good enough....take for example Gomez...even as fans we saw it as a forgone conclusion that the Devils weren't going to pony up the dough to keep him...well...then why not trade him for something...anything...well logic would be because Lou thought we had a chance to win big...we didn't...we all knew we didn't...we hoped, we prayed but deep down we knew it was unlikely...if Lou really is quietly hitting the pause button for 2 seasons then getting a decent draft pick or prospect for Gomez would've been the best decision in terms of business...and it didn't happen...

I'm all for having to wait to improve if it really does get us a Cup or two in the near future but the fact is some decisions Lou makes, like the example above, contradict that thought and make it seem as though he thinks we have a good enough team which is somewhat, as Msweet put it, delusional...

[mddevsfan]

Those players were just examples, not specific players I would want... I'm not a GM. And yes, I think given the nature of the team, and trying to win while Marty can play, what future are we speaking of? What players in the future pipeline are coming? Marty will single-handedly keep us low in the draft.

This always kills me. PLEASE NAME ONE. People always claim there was someone out the the GM should have gotten for a bag of pucks. But when they're asked to back up their claim it's, "Well, I'm not a GM, but I'm sure there were."

The truth of the matter was that the market sucked. Not enough sellers and way too many buyers. The end result is there were only a few decent guys out there, and there was always another idiot GM willing to give WAAAAYYY too much to get him.

Don't forget, also, that Lou was working on another deal that fell through, so standing pat wasn't his plan all along.

[Triumph]

well...then why not trade him for something...anything...well logic would be because Lou thought we had a chance to win big...we didn't...we all knew we didn't...we hoped, we prayed but deep down we knew it was unlikely...if Lou really is quietly hitting the pause button for 2 seasons then getting a decent draft pick or prospect for Gomez would've been the best decision in terms of business...and it didn't happen...

Even if your shot at the Cup is poor, that's by and large irrelevant. When you are in first place and you trade your star center for nothing that can help immediately, you are making a terrible business decision - you are upsetting your fans for what's sure to be a minimal future gain. You are also telling the other 19 guys in the locker room they're incapable of winning a Stanley Cup so let's get something for this guy while we can.

[msweet]

Nobody commented yet on my comment about Sutter calling out Greene, when it was at least partly his fault.

[metallidevils]

With a guy like Marty in net, the playoff disappointments of the last few years are almost inexcusable.

However, to find the reasons as to why, look no further than the fact that coaches refuse to tell Marty to take a day off, and..the past few trading deadlines. They've basically all been, every team in contention getting better, except us. I'm sorry, but since the last cup Lou has turned this team into a mess, and until he gets over himself we're not winning another cup any time soon.

[Devils731]

if Lou really is quietly hitting the pause button for 2 seasons then getting a decent draft pick or prospect for Gomez would've been the best decision in terms of business

That is hindsight in 20/20. Last year you wanted to trade Gomez because the team wasn't good enough with Gomez and Rafalski, this season with neither Gomez or Rafalski we should trade future chips for the now. It seems like a conflicting stance to take, right? Last years team probably had a better shot at the cup on paper than this years so going for it made more sense, especially since the team didn't have to make any changes. This years team isn't going to be as good on paper as last years team even if you trade a lot of future stuff for a guy like Hossa so it just didn't make sense.

[CMONPETEYD]

I agree 100% with everything MSWEET said. I have been getting hammered the past few weeks by everyone on this board about me thinking Lou has to make some big time moves here.

[metallidevils]

msweet, you're exit 14-A? are you from bayonne? PM me

[davemaleyfan]

...to take it even further:

-Kurvers to Toronto for their '91 first rounder (Nieds)

-Burke and Weinrich to Hartford for Holik and a pick (Pando)

Yeah, Lou hasn't been making deals like that since the lockout, and I must admit, the whole 9-D system is bizarre to me, and yes, yesterday at about 4:00, I was saying to myself "geesh....that CAN'T be it", but as time has passed, I'm happy Lou didn't go crazy.

Being as how I live out of NJ, and have to rely on Center Ice, I don't get the postgame pressers, only the tidbits in the articles the next day. Sounds like Sutter went off on Greene. Looks like he's number 9 on the depth chart right now.

Bottom line, this is this......

remember, not more then 3 months ago, many here were talking about the Devs "being this years Flyers"....wow...just wow.

Remember, not more then 5 months ago, experts were predicting New Jersey and Buffalo to be lucky to be in a playoff hunt this time of year as a result of it's losses, while the Rangers would be contending for the Eastern Conference crown and the President's trophy as a result of it's...umm..."gains"........

What I don't understand is, what makes the other teams that much better right now? What make anyone positive that this is a one round and done team? Who in the conference is that much better right now? Who in the conference is built for a long playoff haul? The Pens now have Hossa....so what. Ottawa was primed to run the table when they added Stillman and Commodore, and now look at them.......

[metallidevils]

Drafting niedermayer and brodeur...shouldn't more of the credit go to the scouts?

also, 'what makes other teams better' is essentially the fact that we're essentially relying on our goalie to have superhuman efforts every night in order to win games

[Triumph]

With a guy like Marty in net, the playoff disappointments of the last few years are almost inexcusable.

However, to find the reasons as to why, look no further than the fact that coaches refuse to tell Marty to take a day off, and..the past few trading deadlines. They've basically all been, every team in contention getting better, except us. I'm sorry, but since the last cup Lou has turned this team into a mess, and until he gets over himself we're not winning another cup any time soon.

Yeah, losing to the eventual Stanley Cup champions and Eastern Conference finalist - geez, fire Lou. Inexcusable.

Since 2002, this team has lost these players without recompense:

Bobby Holik, Joe Nieuwendyk, Scott Niedermayer, Viktor Kozlov, Scott Gomez, Brian Rafalski

and the team is in first place, with an average age around league average or better.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Triumph