Palins Kid

[SueNJ97]

I have never said Sarah Palin is too inexperienced for the job. I don't see how anyone other then a former president or maybe former vice president has the "experience" for it. Having a lengthy career in politics isn't hurtful in anyway but hardly a important requirement. What I find most troubling about McCain (read McCain, not Palin) is that after spending months trying to convince the nation that Obama did not have the experience for the job he selects someone (read someone, not woman) with an equal resume to Obama to be VP, a slot which he said the most important thing was that they be able to step in and lead the country. How can he say Obama can't and Palin could with equal amounts of experience?

I wish people would stop playing the woman card, it has nothing to do with anything, or speaking for myself, nothing to do with anything I have said. Correlation is not causation, just because Palin is a women doesn't mean she is getting the short end of the stick because of it. I would consider any male to be a bad father in the same respect that I consider Palin a bad mother for making the choices they are making at present. Again I concede that those personal family choices have no correlation to how good at their job they may or may not be and have no bearing in my mind about who will do the best job.

I think Biden's case is drastically different because he ran for senate before the accident, he was left as a single parent and needed to support his surviving family and had trouble accepting the position even then. I don't know why he changed his mind and if we could go back in time I would say the same thing as I am saying now that it accepting a promotion and being away from his kids when they needed him most would be bad parenting. However that isn't what happened, and it's not the same as what we have today. Palin has a secure job (at least I'm pretty sure Governor is a secure job) before she accepted the VP slot and she also happens to have a 17 year old pregnant daughter who is due sometime in November. Her daughter did not get pregnant after she was elected, Sarah Palin made this decision ahead of time.

Oh and please, I haven't even for a minute considered Sarah Palin a bad mother or that she isn't qualified for the job because she is female. her gender has nothing to do with it, maybe you don't get it.

Oh, please. You just made an excuse for Biden. The Palins do have someone at home taking care of the children. Her husband is a stay-at-home-father.

So, It's OK for Biden but not for her. I get it. That's fine. That's your opinion. Ambition is fine when it's got the name Joe Biden attached but not when someone named Sarah Palin is involved. Biden could have found a job that allowed him to spend more time with his children, he was their ONLY parent, he chose not do so. If he was spending lots of time with his kids, he was doing a lousy job for his constituents and he's damn lucky they re-elected him - or, did he play on their heartstings by using his family situation, the very thing you say a politician should never do with his/her children? But, it's OK for him, and not for her.

I understand, you are used to seeing men out there on the political stage dragging their families around. But, when women do it, it's terrible. It's a sign of their overwheaning ambition and they need to be stopped.

As for experience, the Democratic Party decided to redefine it for Obama. They cannot complain now when the Republicans take them at their word. As I mentioned in my last post (replying to Liz), I expect nothing less than lies and ambition from all politicians, why do you expect anything different from either McCain or Obama - or their VP picks?

[RowdyFan42]

However, if Governor Palin were a man, and as a couple, between them, HE and his wife had 5 children, one of whom had Down's syndrome and one of whom was pregnant at 17, I cannot imagine that HE would be called a bad father, overly ambitious and told to go home and take care of his children. Do you get it now?

You underestimate the ruthlessness of politics. The pregnant 17-year-old would still be a major target, especially if the part about the family being Republican and hard-core into abstinence-only sex education doesn't change in your hypothetical situation.

[NJDevs4978]

I think actors, athletes politicians make poor parenting decisions all the time and if we had threads for all of them I would say the same for any of them male or female who IMO make a poor parenting call. Rarely however is that ever the topic at hand, this time it is.

That's part of the point though - why is it never the topic at hand? The media doesn't usually get up on their soapboxes and make that a big deal. They don't care, except when it's a female Republican running for VP apparently.

That's fair. If you feel that way though I'm curious as to how you feel about Palin's husband reportedly supporting Alasaka succeeding from the US? Does that reflect on Sarah in anyway? And I'm not trying to troll you it's a sincere question, personally I don't think it matters at all but from someone who does feel the people are close to you do have bearing, whats your take on that?

Is this another rumor or fact? I'm not sure it's even a big deal since Alaska isn't part of the continental US anyway but I'd have to know more about why they want to secede.

[Devilish34]

Now that teen pregnancy is now on the rise after declining the last decade this makes Palins kid the poster child for the failed "Abstinence only" sex education program pushed by the zealots.

Congrat's Mr. Bush.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7120501208.html

[SueNJ97]

You underestimate the ruthlessness of politics. The pregnant 17-year-old would still be a major target, especially if the part about the family being Republican and hard-core into abstinence-only sex education doesn't change in your hypothetical situation.

Perhaps on the Democratic side - in the past they haven't fought back and maybe they would tell the candidate to go home. The Republicans actually support their candidates and, I'm sorry, he would not be told to go home after he was the pick. They would rally around him and he would be safe.

I have seen the response to this on the Democratic side (except for Obama, who has, to his credit, been gracious) from quite a few liberal voters. Apparently, Palin should resign as Governor of Alaska because she is a bad mother. I can't stand her politics, but this just makes the Democrats look silly. No wonder we have the frigging mommy wars in this country.

I asked people who wouldn't vote for Clinton, more as a matter of curiosity, because I don't believe I'll see a female President before I die (and I'm mid-40s), and it would have been interesting, but not necessary, who they thought would be the first female nominee on the Democratic side. They couldn't come up with one, because a woman can't run with children still at home on the Democratic side, because it re-ignites the mommy wars, and, once she has grown children, she's too old to connect with younger voters, a big problen for Clinton. And, of course, not having children is impossible for a politician.

[SueNJ97]

That's part of the point though - why is it never the topic at hand? The media doesn't usually get up on their soapboxes and make that a big deal. They don't care, except when it's a female Republican running for VP apparently.

Is this another rumor or fact? I'm not sure it's even a big deal since Alaska isn't part of the continental US anyway but I'd have to know more about why they want to secede.

I have relatives in Alaska. They aren't part of the movement, but, I've talked to them about it. Lots of people move up there because it's supposed to be the 'last frontier' and the 'fvck the government' attitude is alive and well in the population, so that's part of it. However, lots of this comes from the fact that the state is still sitting on a ton of natural resources and the rest of the country tries to tell them what they can and can't do with it, either they want to stop them from using it at all or they want them to tell them how it can be used for the good of the rest of the country, not for the good of the State of Alaska. While they completely overstate the case (after all, we set aside large parts of other states as wildlife preserves and National parks and those states done't scream nearly as much), there is some truth to the statement that we do try to tell Alaska that they have to use their resources for everyone but themselves. If I lived there I might get PO'd as well. Just not enough to secede.

[squishyx]

Oh, please. You just made an excuse for Biden. The Palins do have someone at home taking care of the children. Her husband is a stay-at-home-father.

So, It's OK for Biden but not for her. I get it. That's fine. That's your opinion. Ambition is fine when it's got the name Joe Biden attached but not when someone named Sarah Palin is involved. Biden could have found a job that allowed him to spend more time with his children, he was their ONLY parent, he chose not do so. If he was spending lots of time with his kids, he was doing a lousy job for his constituents and he's damn lucky they re-elected him - or, did he play on their heartstings by using his family situation, the very thing you say a politician should never do with his/her children? But, it's OK for him, and not for her.

I understand, you are used to seeing men out there on the political stage dragging their families around. But, when women do it, it's terrible. It's a sign of their overwheaning ambition and they need to be stopped.

As for experience, the Democratic Party decided to redefine it for Obama. They cannot complain now when the Republicans take them at their word. As I mentioned in my last post (replying to Liz), I expect nothing less than lies and ambition from all politicians, why do you expect anything different from either McCain or Obama - or their VP picks?

I don't see how you can say I'm making an excuse for Biden when I said I would condemn him under the same circumstances. Sorry but I feel their situations are drastically different and maybe you don't but if Biden left his family to take the VP slot for 3 months of traveling around the country and he had a 17 year old pregnant daughter at home I would consider him a bad father. I think I have said that many times now so what are you really trying to get at?

Do you feel Biden's situation 30 years ago is the same as the one Palin is facing today, because then we disagree on what the term "same" means.

Spare me the "you are used to seeing men" blah blah rhetoric. I am my own person and I perceive the world through my eyes not what people place in front of me. At no time did I consider Palin's gender into the equation when I called her a bad parent so stop telling me what I believe and why I say things and you tell me why this makes her a good parent instead of blindly defending her because she is a female. If there is a sexist here its you, not me.

Edited September 3, 2008 by squishyx

[squishyx]

That's part of the point though - why is it never the topic at hand? The media doesn't usually get up on their soapboxes and make that a big deal. They don't care, except when it's a female Republican running for VP apparently.

I have to defer to the fact that neither Obama, nor McCain, nor Biden have a 17 year old pregnant daughter they are neglecting (neglect is a strong word, I don't know that she is neglecting her daughter, it just appears as such and thus worthy of discussion in the realm of good / bad parenting). I don't recall Clinton being painted as a bad mother for running for president, just because Pilan happens to be a female doesn't mean she is getting beat up more then anyone else would. People want special rules for her because she is a female and that's just as sexist as the other way around.

Is this another rumor or fact? I'm not sure it's even a big deal since Alaska isn't part of the continental US anyway but I'd have to know more about why they want to secede.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080902/ap_on_..._palin_politics

I don't really know if he is one of the members of that actually supported succession because again I really don't consider this kind of stuff important. But considering you do, what would you say if it were true, for the sake of argument. Do you think that would be Sarah Palin is unamerican, not patriotic?

[SueNJ97]

I don't see how you can say I'm making an excuse for Biden when I said I would condemn him under the same circumstances. Sorry but I feel their situations are drastically different and maybe you don't but if Biden left his family to take the VP slot for 3 months of traveling around the country and he had a 17 year old pregnant daughter at home I would consider him a bad father. I think I have said that many times now so what are you really trying to get at?

Do you feel Biden's situation 30 years ago is the same as the one Palin is facing today, because then we disagree on what the term "same" means.

Spare me the "you are used to seeing men" blah blah rhetoric. I am my own person and I perceive the world through my eyes not what people place in front of me. At no time did I consider Palin's gender into the equation when I called her a bad parent so stop telling me what I believe and why I say things and you tell me why this makes her a good parent instead of blindly defending her because she is a female. If there is a sexist here its you, not me.

Palin has left her children with a parent at home. Biden left his children with no parent at home to take a job which ensured he would either not be with them or not serve his constituents well. He had a chance not to do it and decided to be a Senator. No politician, and I repeat this NO politician, who takes a job with any level of responsibility, and that would be Congressperson, Senator, Governor, VP, President, all of those require a huge time commitment, so, being Governor already means she doesn't see her kids all that often, I don't see that VP is all that different and no, I don't blame her for it. But, you excuse Biden for obviously deciding that being a Senator was important, I don't care if it was 30 years ago or today. He was either cheating his kids or his constituents. Which was it??? Why is that OK when there was no parent at home?

Why was it OK for him, but not for her??? Either answer me in a way that makes sense (she has a parent with them at home, he did not) or leave it alone because obviously you either identify with his politics or his gender or both, but the Palins provide them with a parent at home, Joe Biden took on a demanding Senate career when there was no parent at home when he could have decided not to do it and you think it was just fine. So what is it? His politics or his gender? Or both?

[SueNJ97]

I have to defer to the fact that neither Obama, nor McCain, nor Biden have a 17 year old pregnant daughter they are neglecting (neglect is a strong word, I don't know that she is neglecting her daughter, it just appears as such and thus worthy of discussion in the realm of good / bad parenting). I don't recall Clinton being painted as a bad mother for running for president, just because Pilan happens to be a female doesn't mean she is getting beat up more then anyone else would. People want special rules for her because she is a female and that's just as sexist as the other way around.

Clinton was said to be too ambitious to be President and therefore too power hungry to be safe because she hadn't divorced her husband because he cheated on her, she stayed with him for the sake of her career. Apparently, women are only supposed to stay with their husbands for the sake of the children. Ambition in women is bad. They cannot be trusted.

Edited September 3, 2008 by SueNJ97

[squishyx]

It's not clear cut for me when it comes to Biden. From a very general look at it I don't think he made the best choice for his kids by accepting the position. At the same time he had to put food on the table, and he didn't seek a higher more time consuming job after the accident. It's sort of a wash, his kids need to eat and they also need a father he made the best call for himself and his kids. I don't think he is a role model by any means or going to win father of the year but I don't think he is a bad parent for it. Joe Biden could have taken a job closer to his kids and done more for them.

Sarah is making the best decision for Sarah, not her kids. That makes her a bad mother imo. All you are doing is trying to fuse the situation using as vague terms as possible to make them seem like the same situation when they are not. I can tell you straight that if Joe Biden had a 17 year old pregnant daughter right now and accepted the VP slot then I would call him out for being a bad father too. Thats the third time i have said it.

And since you are being so black and white on the gender topic, here, a woman wrote this article, go "identity" with it

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...arah_polin.html

Clinton was said to be too ambitious to be President and therefore too power hungry to be safe because she hadn't divorced her husband because he cheated on her, she stayed with him for the sake of her career. Apparently, women are only supposed to stay with their husbands for the sake of the children. Ambition in women is bad. They cannot be trusted.

That's great. Did I ever say that? no. Dont attribute some BS someone else said to me, it has nothing to do with my opinion of Hillary. thanks.

Edited September 3, 2008 by squishyx

[RowdyFan42]

Is this another rumor or fact? I'm not sure it's even a big deal since Alaska isn't part of the continental US anyway but I'd have to know more about why they want to secede.

Apparently that's the next story that'll be bubbling up any minute now. I didn't know about the husband, but Sarah herself was supposedly heavily involved in the Alaskan Independence Party for a number of years. The AIP advocates Alaska seceding from the US. It seems their big beef is that Alaska was never asked if it wanted to become a part of the US, it was just bought from Russia and then was eventually granted statehood. The party's motto is "Alaska First', which goes right up against McCain's "America First". Also, the party's leader has been known to say some pretty nasty things about America.

Perhaps on the Democratic side - in the past they haven't fought back and maybe they would tell the candidate to go home. The Republicans actually support their candidates and, I'm sorry, he would not be told to go home after he was the pick. They would rally around him and he would be safe.

So you're saying the Republicans have not rallied around Palin?

I asked people who wouldn't vote for Clinton, more as a matter of curiosity, because I don't believe I'll see a female President before I die (and I'm mid-40s), and it would have been interesting, but not necessary, who they thought would be the first female nominee on the Democratic side. They couldn't come up with one, because a woman can't run with children still at home on the Democratic side, because it re-ignites the mommy wars, and, once she has grown children, she's too old to connect with younger voters, a big problen for Clinton. And, of course, not having children is impossible for a politician.

The problem with Hillary is that, for all sorts of reasons, she's just too damn polarizing. I think it says a lot when even a good number of Democrats can't stand her.

[SueNJ97]

It's not clear cut for me when it comes to Biden. From a very general look at it I don't think he made the best choice for his kids by accepting the position. At the same time he had to put food on the table, and he didn't seek a higher more time consuming job after the accident. It's sort of a wash, his kids need to eat and they also need a father he made the best call for himself and his kids. I don't think he is a role model by any means or going to win father of the year but I don't think he is a bad parent for it. Joe Biden could have taken a job closer to his kids and done more for them.

Sarah is making the best decision for Sarah, not her kids. That makes her a bad mother imo. All you are doing is trying to fuse the situation using as vague terms as possible to make them seem like the same situation when they are not. I can tell you straight that if Joe Biden had a 17 year old pregnant daughter right now and accepted the VP slot then I would call him out for being a bad father too. Thats the third time i have said it.

And since you are being so black and white on the gender topic, here, woman wrote this article, go "identity" with it

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...arah_polin.html

Almost all politicians make the best decision for them, not for their families or they wouldn't become politicians. It's a lousy, awful, thing for the families, especially Presidential politics. Why do you think Teddy Kennedy's children had to FORCE him not to run again in 1984. He was going to do it. They sat him down and told him no, they didn't want to go through it again. Until then, he hadn't had a clue what it was doing to his family and, quite frankly, hadn't cared. Dukakis had had no idea what his political career had done to his wife. Politicians are BLIND to everyone but themselves. They have to be. But, apparently, it matters more if they are mothers, because mothers are supposed to be, well, something different. I'll believe you on Biden when I see a father in the situation Sarah Palin is in and I see you actually call them on it. I, persoanlly, wouldn't have expected Biden to go home. He's a politician. I expect that they put their careers before their families. You, however, only expect some politicians to do so, those who, for some reason, you like.

BTW, when Bill was running for the White House in 1992, there was plenty said about Hillary's skills as a mother. You just might not recall it.

As for the link, I don't think McCain was expecting to pick up any Hillary voters when he picked Palin. I believe he picked her to shore up the evangelical base, who adore her and aren't thrilled with him, and he brought in $10 million under the deadline because of it. The evangelicals were thinking of staying home in November. Now they might not. I've said before, I don't like her political opinions. Just because I believe she's being held to a double-standard in SOME areas by SOME people, doesn't mean I'd ever pull the lever for her - due to political beliefs, for one thing. I also do believe that experience means something. Both she and Obama don't have enough of it. I DO hold them to the same standard in that area. Just because the Democrats decided to re-write it, doesn't mean I fell for it. However, I find the fact that many Democrats who insisted that experience was not an issue, suddenly became concerned about it with her. That's a double-standard. Why? Her politics or her gender? I don't mean you, I just mean Democrats in general.

Edited September 3, 2008 by SueNJ97

[Copper Kettle]

Regarding Joe Biden, he was elected to the Senate in November 1972. A month later, his wife and daughter were killed, and 2 sons seriously injured, in a car accident. Biden was going to resign, but was lobbied hard to keep his Senate seat by Hubert Humphrey and Mike Mansfield. He took the oath of office by his sons' bedsides. Senator Biden's sister and her husband moved into Biden's house to help care for the boys, who eventually made full recoveries. Senator Biden admits that at the time, he did the least amount work required.

[SueNJ97]

So you're saying the Republicans have not rallied around Palin?

The problem with Hillary is that, for all sorts of reasons, she's just too damn polarizing. I think it says a lot when even a good number of Democrats can't stand her.

I'm saying that the Republicans will rally around the candidate man or woman. The Democrats are more likely to eat their own. I think your scenario is more likely to have happened on the Democratic side, if it happened.

Perhaps she is too polarizing, but it was sad that they could not come up with one name - there is nobody in the pipeline, the keynote speaker is a man, once again, and they insist that a female candidate be 'perfect', whatever that is. I don't think it's massively important that there be a female candidate, it's just hilarious that all the people who said we'll vote for a woman, but not this woman, then could not come up with a single name, because what it meant was, they weren't serious, because it wasn't real to them. They have a perfect candidate in their head that doesn't exist and will never exist. And no woman will ever be that.

[squishyx]

Almost all politicians make the best decision for them, not for their families or they wouldn't become politicians. It's a lousy, awful, thing for the families, especially Presidential politics. Why do you think Teddy Kennedy's children had to FORCE him not to run again in 1984. He was going to do it. They sat him down and told him no, they didn't want to go through it again. Until then, he hadn't had a clue what it was doing to his family and, quite frankly, hadn't cared. Dukakis had had no idea what his political career had done to his wife. Politicians are BLIND to everyone but themselves. They have to be. But, apparently, it matters more if they are mothers, because mothers are supposed to be, well, something different. I'll believe you on Biden when I see a father in the situation Sarah Palin is in and I see you actually call them on it. I, persoanlly, wouldn't have expected Biden to go home. He's a politician. I expect that they put their careers before their families. You, however, only expect some politicians to do so, those who, for some reason, you like.

Ted Kennedy was a bad father then. It doesn't change the fact that Sarah Pilan is a bad mother. And AGAIN you are tying to be more and more vauge, trying to push more and more away from the topic at hand and what it comes right down to it, this is not about personal choice over family. You have to have a career to support your family, and its in their best interest sometimes if you focus more on your own career so you have have a better life for everyone. I refuse, refuse to let you twist my words into something I am not saying. I am saying for the final time:

I consider anyone, any man or any woman who accepts the VP position when their 17 year old daughter is pregnant and expecting to deliver in the next 3-4 months while you will be away campaigning to be a lousy parent.

That does not mean women shouldn't work, that does not mean women shouldn't be in politics, that does not mean women are not allowed to progress their careers, it means exactly what i wrote, nothing more nothing less.

BTW, when Bill was running for the White House in 1992, there was plenty said about Hillary's skills as a mother. You just might not recall it.

I wouldn't recall, I was 8. Nor do I care though, just because some other people said bad things about Hillary has no bearing on how I feel about it.

Both she and Obama don't have enough of it. I DO hold them to the same standard in that area. Just because the Democrats decided to re-write it, doesn't mean I fell for it. However, I find the fact that many Democrats who insisted that experience was not an issue, suddenly became concerned about it with her. That's a double-standard. Why? Her politics or her gender? I don't mean you, I just mean Democrats in general.

And just as you consider experience important for both, I equally consider it unimportant for both

[Pepperkorn]

Sue... squishy is feeling his "truthiness" oats. Truthiness meaning: his statements are not based in fact - they are based in subjective interpretation. He must state his interpretations/gut feelings as fact - I'm not sure why.

Sue has very clearly stated objective facts - a man is praised for ambition, a woman is reviled. Squishy is praising Biden and reviling Palin. No matter how much truthiness squish paints over this fact, it still remains a fact. I'm not sure why Squishy has these feelings but cannot and will not acknowledge them, except that somewhere in his psyche he sees them as hypocritical. Maybe some other reason?

Squish - I'll give you an easy out, a historically accepted social norm for you to hinge your opinion (not FACT) on. Acknowledge that traditionally men are hunter gatherers and women are nurturer home keepers, and this is a tradition you cannot help but adhere to. I'd have more respect for you if you stated something unobscured by what I interpret as gutless and offensive truthiness.

[SueNJ97]

Ted Kennedy was a bad father then. It doesn't change the fact that Sarah Pilan is a bad mother. And AGAIN you are tying to be more and more vauge, trying to push more and more away from the topic at hand and what it comes right down to it, this is not about personal choice over family. You have to have a career to support your family, and its in their best interest sometimes if you focus more on your own career so you have have a better life for everyone. I refuse, refuse to let you twist my words into something I am not saying. I am saying for the final time:

I consider anyone, any man or any woman who accepts the VP position when their 17 year old daughter is pregnant and expecting to deliver in the next 3-4 months while you will be away campaigning to be a lousy parent.

That does not mean women shouldn't work, that does not mean women shouldn't be in politics, that does not mean women are not allowed to progress their careers, it means exactly what i wrote, nothing more nothing less.

I wouldn't recall, I was 8. Nor do I care though, just because some other people said bad things about Hillary has no bearing on how I feel about it.

And just as you consider experience important for both, I equally consider it unimportant for both

I am not being vague. I have been voting for everything but President since 1982 and President since 1984 and I'm sorry, I've seen enough about politicians, the way they treat their families, their amibitions and what they actually get away with and the standards they are held to, even now, and this is a new standard that she is being held to. Apparently it exists only for her...among politicians. I am trying to explain that men have not and probably would not be held to it. But you go right ahead and insist that you would - you're self-righteous enough and maybe you would hold a man to it, if you didn't like him. I doubt you would if you liked what he stood for, though.

You like Biden and you think what he did was maybe not so OK, but maybe it was, but he needed to work so the fact that he screwed up with either his job or his kids was, well, forgivable. I think he did what any politician would do - but I can't understand how his constituents re-elected him without him dragging his family around in front of them to gain their sympathy, which you think a politician shouldn't do.

I completely understand what Palin is doing, she has her husband at home as any man would his wife at home, I would never vote for her due to experience and political beliefs, but hold her to no standard I would not hold a male politician, you claim you are doing the same, but you don't have a real-life male example to give me. I understand that politicians don't give put their families in front of their careers. Period. I'm not electing a parent. It's really time we all stopped pretending we are electing President Daddy and Mommy.

[squishyx]

Sue... squishy is feeling his "truthiness" oats. Truthiness meaning: his statements are not based in fact - they are based in subjective interpretation. He must state his interpretations/gut feelings as fact - I'm not sure why.

Yawn, what am I claiming to know other then giving my opinion that Sarah Pilan is a bad mother? Pretty sure it's clear this is my opinion, and I have said as such. I can't say for a fact that she is a bad mother since good / bad mother has no real definition. It's been my opinion all along.

Sue has very clearly stated objective facts - a man is praised for ambition, a woman is reviled. Squishy is praising Biden and reviling Palin. No matter how much truthiness squish paints over this fact, it still remains a fact. I'm not sure why Squishy has these feelings but cannot and will not acknowledge them, except that somewhere in his psyche he sees them as hypocritical. Maybe some other reason?

Show me where I have praised Biden please. Yea, didn't think so. I don't disagree that the stereo-types Sue listed are not real and they may very well in fact play into many peoples thoughts and opinions. However, if you bother to read rather then just try to insult you would see that those commonly held thoughts and derogatory feelings towards women are not mine. I think she is a bad mother just by her own actions, imagine that.

Squish - I'll give you an easy out, a historically accepted social norm for you to hinge your opinion (not FACT) on. Acknowledge that traditionally men are hunter gatherers and women are nurturer home keepers, and this is a tradition you cannot help but adhere to. I'd have more respect for you if you stated something unobscured by what I interpret as gutless and offensive truthiness.

Pk- Your problem is you are so damn full of yourself that you think you know everything. You think you know why people think they way they do. You think your opinion on why someone else, (specifically myself) says something is the way it is. You go out of your way to talk with a demeaning tone and act so damn superior when you don't even bother to read half the stuff that is written because you made up your mind when you saw who posted something rather then look at the content. I don't need your easy way out to think she is a sh!tty mother for leaving her family when they need her the most. I'd have more respect for you if you stopped using stupid clich

[SueNJ97]

Sue... squishy is feeling his "truthiness" oats. Truthiness meaning: his statements are not based in fact - they are based in subjective interpretation. He must state his interpretations/gut feelings as fact - I'm not sure why.

Sue has very clearly stated objective facts - a man is praised for ambition, a woman is reviled. Squishy is praising Biden and reviling Palin. No matter how much truthiness squish paints over this fact, it still remains a fact. I'm not sure why Squishy has these feelings but cannot and will not acknowledge them, except that somewhere in his psyche he sees them as hypocritical. Maybe some other reason?

Squish - I'll give you an easy out, a historically accepted social norm for you to hinge your opinion (not FACT) on. Acknowledge that traditionally men are hunter gatherers and women are nurturer home keepers, and this is a tradition you cannot help but adhere to. I'd have more respect for you if you stated something unobscured by what I interpret as gutless and offensive truthiness.

OK, understood, I will stop trying, then. Thanks.

I haven't been around for a while and I don't know poster's habits anymore.

[squishyx]

I am not being vague. I have been voting for everything but President since 1982 and President since 1984 and I'm sorry, I've seen enough about politicians, the way they treat their families, their amibitions and what they actually get away with and the standards they are held to, even now, and this is a new standard that she is being held to. Apparently it exists only for her...among politicians. I am trying to explain that men have not and probably would not be held to it. But you go right ahead and insist that you would - you're self-righteous enough and maybe you would hold a man to it, if you didn't like him. I doubt you would if you liked what he stood for, though.

I don't particularly like that Obama drags his kids round when they should be home and in school. I don't think its in their best interest at all, and for that I don't think Obama is a great father. He is putting himself (although I'm sure he wants us all to believe he is putting country) before his children's overall well being. Additionally, I think he puts them at a certain degree of risk by running for president and even more so if he gets elected. I don't know if I would go so far to say that it makes him a bad father, at a minimum though it makes it a really poor parenting choice.

This has nothing to do with why I'm voting for the man nor will it stop me. Is that good enough for you?

You like Biden and you think what he did was maybe not so OK, but maybe it was, but he needed to work so the fact that he screwed up with either his job or his kids was, well, forgivable. I think he did what any politician would do - but I can't understand how his constituents re-elected him without him dragging his family around in front of them to gain their sympathy, which you think a politician shouldn't do.

I don't consider Pilan and Biden's situation the same, regardless of gender. Maybe this is an issue for you but it isn't for me. The fact that one is a man and one is a woman is not the reason it's different.

I completely understand what Palin is doing, she has her husband at home as any man would his wife at home, I would never vote for her due to experience and political beliefs, but hold her to no standard I would not hold a male politician, you claim you are doing the same, but you don't have a real-life male example to give me. I understand that politicians don't give put their families in front of their careers. Period. I'm not electing a parent. It's really time we all stopped pretending we are electing President Daddy and Mommy.

And I'll digress to the what I have been saying all along that the fact that I believe she is a lousy mother has no bearing on her abilities to be VP.

[Devilish34]

OK, understood, I will stop trying, then. Thanks.

I haven't been around for a while and I don't know poster's habits anymore.

Please post more some of us miss you.

[squishyx]

OK, understood, I will stop trying, then. Thanks.

I haven't been around for a while and I don't know poster's habits anymore.

Grow up, the both of you.

[Pepperkorn]

Squishy - Your problem is you are so damn full of yourself that you think you know everything. You think you know why people think they way they do. You think your opinion on why someone else, (specifically myself) says something is the way it is. You go out of your way to talk with a demeaning tone and act so damn superior when you don't even bother to read half the stuff that is written because you made up your mind when you saw who posted something rather then look at the content. I don't need your easy way out to think she is a sh!tty mother for leaving her family when they need her the most. I'd have more respect for you if you stopped using stupid clich

[SueNJ97]

I don't particularly like that Obama drags his kids round when they should be home and in school. I don't think its in their best interest at all, and for that I don't think Obama is a great father. He is putting himself (although I'm sure he wants us all to believe he is putting country) before his children's overall well being. Additionally, I think he puts them at a certain degree of risk by running for president and even more so if he gets elected. I don't know if I would go so far to say that it makes him a bad father, at a minimum though it makes it a really poor parenting choice.

This has nothing to do with why I'm voting for the man nor will it stop me. Is that good enough for you?

I don't consider Pilan and Biden's situation the same, regardless of gender. Maybe this is an issue for you but it isn't for me. The fact that one is a man and one is a woman is not the reason it's different.

And I'll digress to the what I have been saying all along that the fact that I believe she is a lousy mother has no bearing on her abilities to be VP.

OK, let me just say that your earlier posts did not make the last point clear. Your concerns about her family situation seemed to indicate that she should not TRY to be VP. Perhaps you meant that, but still thought she could do it (had the ability). Let's just say that your posts were somewhat unclear on these points - or conflicting.

I have never cared what Obama does in regard to parenting - there have been small children in the White House before, so, it's something Americans have sort of gotten used to, as long as the person running has been male and not expected to be the traditional primary caregiver (even if she isn't). As I mentioned, I'm electing the President, not a Mommy or Daddy. People didn't care that Reagan didn't get along w/his (grown) kids and was, by all accounts, a lousy parent, they elected him twice. So, I do hold the men and the women to the same standard - it's not a concern of mine. Period.