Mosque

[Devils Dose]

Are you kidding? Good luck finding a NY crew to build it. They are already plotting to avoid this travesty.

This is going to be the first thing ever that no amount of money could get done?

[El Diablo]

Are you kidding? Good luck finding a NY crew to build it. They are already plotting to avoid this travesty.

I disagree Jimmy -- people sell their souls all the time... look at the president..

[squishyx]

Are you kidding? Good luck finding a NY crew to build it. They are already plotting to avoid this travesty.

Ha. Money talks. it doesn't matter what the context is, someone will build it.

[MantaRay]

A Mosque ? In New York City? That's like putting up a Catholic Church near a kids playground.

[El Diablo]

A Mosque ? In New York City? That's like putting up a Catholic Church near a kids playground.

Ha .... if you could only make that remark about other tolerant religions without getting persecuted ....

[oofrostonoo]

A Mosque ? In New York City? That's like putting up a Catholic Church near a kids playground.

There would be more of a risk of something bad happening.

[MantaRay]

Ha .... if you could only make that remark about other tolerant religions without getting persecuted ....

LIke the Vatican?

[El Diablo]

LIke the Vatican?

man the catholics have done you wrong ...

let it out ...

then maybe we can go out to manby pamby land ...

[maxpower]

I could care less. If you're legitimately offended by this, and just not crazy and getting your info from talking heads... wait 20-30 years and get back to me. And don't forget to be offended by every ridiculous thing that pops up there.

Once the newness wears off and people who were directly effected pass on and the generation below them moves on/passes on, it's going to turn into a tourist trap.

Edited August 17, 2010 by maxpower

[Jimmy Leeds]

A Mosque ? In New York City? That's like putting murderers next to their victims.

Fixed

[maxpower]

Well, then the Roman Catholic Church should be next to nowhere, because they had quite a run of murder themselves. I'm sure they killed someone near virtually every European church they have. And anywhere they "missioned", and etc..

At least you're coming out with your viewpoint instead of hiding behind the poll now, it was quite ridiculous beforehand.

[Neb00rs]

There is a Muslim woman who is on a board that basically is deciding how to build the 9-11 memorial at the site. Is her presence "insensitive and insulting"?

Apples and oranges my dear. Bringing up what sounds like a perfectly sweet woman who has nothing to do with the building of the Mosque is not a reasonable comparison. I don't even think you have a point there. The woman wants to build a memorial, these guys want to build a Mosque.

Well it's not a general purpose community center, it's a Muslim community center open to all people of all faiths that also includes a Mosque.

LOL. Maybe the Japanese should build a Japanese-American museum around Pearl Harbor - if that happened people would be going nuts. Same thing. It's not anti-Japanese to be against it. It's just that it is hurtful, insulting and unnecessary.

how naive can you be?

You don't follow news matters or current affairs very closely do you?

This is going to be the first thing ever that no amount of money could get done?

What money? and where is it coming from?

[Neb00rs]

Well, then the Roman Catholic Church should be next to nowhere, because they had quite a run of murder themselves. I'm sure they killed someone near virtually every European church they have. And anywhere they "missioned", and etc..

At least you're coming out with your viewpoint instead of hiding behind the poll now, it was quite ridiculous beforehand.

The Roman Catholic Church is hardly a threat in today's world. Did they fvck up a long time ago... yea, everyone did. That doesn't mean anything now. Islamic Terrorism is the greatest threat to the West right now.

[maxpower]

how would they build a Japanese museum around Pearl Harbor? It's a living museum, and it's at sea. That's like saying they can't build a Japanese-American center a few blocks away inland.

I don't mind people being against it, me, personally, I don't care, so that implies I'm not really for it. But you need something better than it being some kind of fifth column bragging trophy. To me, that implies you're not thinking for yourself.

[maxpower]

The Roman Catholic Church is hardly a threat in today's world. Did they fvck up a long time ago... yea, everyone did. That doesn't mean anything now. Islamic Terrorism is the greatest threat to the West right now.

Why does it not mean anything now? Those hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people they killed are meaningless?

Not to mention their churches are slathered all over the map in places where various atrocities took place. Or is it because they were victorious that it's all okay.

They've just moved on and realized that money making is a more logical cartel behavior than murder. But they had a millenium or so head start.

And Islamic Terrorism is hardly the greatest threat to the West right now. I would think avoiding third world status would be far more important. If you can't, there's nothing they can do to you that you wouldn't have already done to yourself.

[Neb00rs]

Why does it not mean anything now? Those hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people they killed are meaningless?

Not to mention their churches are slathered all over the map in places where various atrocities took place. Or is it because they were victorious that it's all okay.

They've just moved on and realized that money making is a more logical cartel behavior than murder. But they had a millenium or so head start.

And Islamic Terrorism is hardly the greatest threat to the West right now. I would think avoiding third world status would be far more important. If you can't, there's nothing they can do to you that you wouldn't have already done to yourself.

The Churches are insensitive. But they were put up long ago and the conquering has been done. You can't change that now. You can't knock the churches down and move the old residents back in. You can stop this mosque from being built.

The reason the Roman Catholic Church doesn't murder is because:

A. They no longer desire world domination

B. They have reformed to being peaceful. They don't teach their followers to hate other religions and to wipe them off the face of the map as Madrasahs are used to teach Muslims in the Middle East.

[maxpower]

The Churches are insensitive. But they were put up long ago and the conquering has been done. You can't change that now. You can't knock the churches down and move the old residents back in. You can stop this mosque from being built.

The reason the Roman Catholic Church doesn't murder is because:

A. They no longer desire world domination

B. They have reformed to being peaceful. They don't teach their followers to hate other religions and to wipe them off the face of the map as Madrasahs are used to teach Muslims in the Middle East.

well, 1,000 years from now, the Muslim religion would likely have reformed and scattered the more kookier aspects to the side, becoming a money-making organization more than anything else.

and trust me, they tried to wipe out other religions. that's the crux of the whole Muslim situation. for whatever reason in that culture, old grudges die hard. they really don't even need new grudges. there were funny stories out of Iraq (well, I guess it depends on how dark your humor is), that after Saddam was taken out, some people started taking out grudges and going out for honor killings. for things that happened hundreds of years ago. I guess 25 years or so of Saddam caused some pent up rage.

look, if you believe in the 1st amendment, it has to be opened. the way I see it, if those kooks from the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to do their thing, and the courts have signed off on this, why can't that mosque be built? the former, we *know* is active trolling. there's no other way to look at it. the later, is infered to be by some people as passive trolling. so... what's the difference here?

the problem here is that like everything else that involves this partisan crap, the constitution is being warped to fit ones needs. the rights are only good when it does something for me, fvck the other ones.

I think the mosque idea is pretty silly. something bad is destined to happen there one way or another, but big picture, who cares. we're doomed with it or without it.

[squishyx]

Apples and oranges my dear. Bringing up what sounds like a perfectly sweet woman who has nothing to do with the building of the Mosque is not a reasonable comparison. I don't even think you have a point there. The woman wants to build a memorial, these guys want to build a Mosque.

LOL. Maybe the Japanese should build a Japanese-American museum around Pearl Harbor - if that happened people would be going nuts. Same thing. It's not anti-Japanese to be against it. It's just that it is hurtful, insulting and unnecessary.

You don't follow news matters or current affairs very closely do you?

What money? and where is it coming from?

It's funny to me that you cite apples and oranges and then try to compare Japanese museum near pearl harbor to a mosque near the WTC.

It's not hurtful or insulting because muslims did not attack us, extremists who happen to be muslim did. Not being able to draw that distinction is paramount. Billions of Muslims are nice, innocent peace loving people who should not be discriminated against because people can't tell the difference.

Now as to your last comment it's unnecessary; that 'may' be true because I think this may do more harm then good for both the localized community and muslims at large. That remains to be seen.

[El Diablo]

I for one am not saying you cant build it .. all I ask is for the same tolerance I am asked for ..

build it uptown, be sensitive to the 9-11 families or better yet, let them decide where it should go...

Id like to see a poll - build a mosque close ground zero or retire scott niedermayers sweater....

[Devils Dose]

I voted that they shouldn't build it. They could have avoided a lot of controversy by just doing it further away.

Although, who thinks that all of the attention that this projection has been receiving was part of the plan all along?

On the other hand, it's out of sight from the site, so how far away would it have to be?

Obviously, the right to build it is there (provided the building meets all the requirements that any other building would), as per the Free Exercise clause of the 1^st Amendment. Clearly the way that we've decided to structure our law is that we allow things that are unpleasant (somebody beat me to the Westboro Baptists reference ), rather than risk having some process for putting restrictions on our rights.

Something I heard suggested was that a Muslim gay bar be built across the street from the mosque. I am very much in favor of that. It's very easy to demand tolerance for oneself. We all do it because each of us is part of some minority group that wants respect, like cyclists who want to safely use the road. But being told to be tolerant of others? That's not something that comes easy, and we know how much worse life is for homosexuals in Islamic countries than in the US. I want to see how that would go, the builders of the community center knowing that the only reason they're there is because tolerance is expected in the community.

[Jimmy Leeds]

how would they build a Japanese museum around Pearl Harbor? It's a living museum, and it's at sea.

Ummmm......it's a harbor, it's not at sea.

It's not hurtful or insulting because muslims did not attack us, extremists who happen to be muslim did. Not being able to draw that distinction is paramount. Billions of Muslims are nice, innocent peace loving people who should not be discriminated against because people can't tell the difference.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorists seem to be Muslims.

[oofrostonoo]

well, 1,000 years from now, the Muslim religion would likely have reformed and scattered the more kookier aspects to the side, becoming a money-making organization more than anything else.

and trust me, they tried to wipe out other religions. that's the crux of the whole Muslim situation. for whatever reason in that culture, old grudges die hard. they really don't even need new grudges. there were funny stories out of Iraq (well, I guess it depends on how dark your humor is), that after Saddam was taken out, some people started taking out grudges and going out for honor killings. for things that happened hundreds of years ago. I guess 25 years or so of Saddam caused some pent up rage.

look, if you believe in the 1st amendment, it has to be opened. the way I see it, if those kooks from the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to do their thing, and the courts have signed off on this, why can't that mosque be built? the former, we *know* is active trolling. there's no other way to look at it. the later, is infered to be by some people as passive trolling. so... what's the difference here?

the problem here is that like everything else that involves this partisan crap, the constitution is being warped to fit ones needs. the rights are only good when it does something for me, fvck the other ones.

I think the mosque idea is pretty silly. something bad is destined to happen there one way or another, but big picture, who cares. we're doomed with it or without it.

well said... 1000 Maybe the internet & information can help accelerate change.

Edited August 18, 2010 by oofrostonoo

[Neb00rs]

well, 1,000 years from now, the Muslim religion would likely have reformed and scattered the more kookier aspects to the side, becoming a money-making organization more than anything else.

and trust me, they tried to wipe out other religions. that's the crux of the whole Muslim situation. for whatever reason in that culture, old grudges die hard. they really don't even need new grudges. there were funny stories out of Iraq (well, I guess it depends on how dark your humor is), that after Saddam was taken out, some people started taking out grudges and going out for honor killings. for things that happened hundreds of years ago. I guess 25 years or so of Saddam caused some pent up rage.

look, if you believe in the 1st amendment, it has to be opened. the way I see it, if those kooks from the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to do their thing, and the courts have signed off on this, why can't that mosque be built? the former, we *know* is active trolling. there's no other way to look at it. the later, is infered to be by some people as passive trolling. so... what's the difference here?

the problem here is that like everything else that involves this partisan crap, the constitution is being warped to fit ones needs. the rights are only good when it does something for me, fvck the other ones.

I think the mosque idea is pretty silly. something bad is destined to happen there one way or another, but big picture, who cares. we're doomed with it or without it.

The Westboro Baptist Church Nuts don't build their church on dead soldier's cemeteries. Their church should be allowed to stand. They do however protest at soldier's funerals and that should NOT be allowed.

There is no doubt the proposed mosque is constitutional. But that doesn't mean that it should be and will be built. In a democracy people are allowed to fight against these sort of things. No one can argue that the mosque is not constitutional. Just because there is the 1st amendment does not mean anything goes...that's a ridiculous assertion. That's the whole reason we have the judiciary branch. However, I do think the mosque builders are in the rights, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be angry and come out against it and even stop it from happening.

Maxpower: I'm glad you are educated in history (although it seems as if your liberal college history teachers pounded all the bad things about Christianity into your head) but you're being silly here. It is absolutely ridiculous to bring up the Roman Catholic Church's past violent actions when discussing this mosque and Islamic terrorism.

It's funny to me that you cite apples and oranges and then try to compare Japanese museum near pearl harbor to a mosque near the WTC.

It's not hurtful or insulting because muslims did not attack us, extremists who happen to be muslim did. Not being able to draw that distinction is paramount. Billions of Muslims are nice, innocent peace loving people who should not be discriminated against because people can't tell the difference.

Now as to your last comment it's unnecessary; that 'may' be true because I think this may do more harm then good for both the localized community and muslims at large. That remains to be seen.

But the terrorists attacked in the name of their religion AND had backing from major figures in the Middle-East. It was an act of war...that's how they do it: give the dirty task to the little guys so we can't fully blame the country.

That being so, the Pearl Harbor example is an excellent example and not my own - it's one that many people are using. The Japanese who would be building the museum wouldn't have anything to do with the attack on PH 70 years ago but obviously you can see how a Japanese museum would be a real slap in the face to America. The people building the mosque have nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks but building the mosque on/around ground zero is a slap in the face to America. People have become too obsessed with being PC to come out and say this.

Yes there are many nice Muslims and the religion itself isn't bad. I have a few Muslim friends and they are as good a friend as anyone could be. However, 99 percent of terrorist attacks are done by Muslims in the nae of Islam. To argue that one shouldn't say that Muslim terrorism is the issue here is completely ignorant - it hints one has been watching too much MSNBC (and there isn't a lot of people watching them).

There aren't "billions" of Muslims FYI and many of them while not being dangerous would help out their fellow terrorists because of what they have been made to believe. The terrorists in this world are just about ALL Muslim and that's a fact. TO deny that would be to turn your back on fact.

All the acts of terrorism in today's world are done by Muslims. Islamic terrorism is the greatest threat to human beings, including peaceful Muslims.

[Devils Pride 26]

Either way those a$$holes win. They build it and it's beating the system (constitution) to make us look stupid while they puff their chests out. Or they don't build it and get all riled up and adds more fuel to the hate.

[thegame346]

The First Amendment still protects Freedom of Religion, right? Last time I checked, that didn't come with a list of acceptable and unacceptable addresses at which to build houses of worship.

Freedom doesn't appeal to everyone's sensibilities all the time, but the Constitution says the KKK is allowed to march, flags are allowed to be burned, Muhammed is allowed to be drawn and mosques are allowed to be built a few blocks away from Ground Zero. Anything else is un-American.

I am glad you brought up this particular ammendment. You are absolutely right. Freedom of religion is part of the 1st ammendment BUT what about the will of the people? Which one takes precedent? The will of the people does in my opinion. This is the EXACT wording of the first ammendment per Wikipedia...

The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

You are reading too much into this ammendment. Freedom to practice their religion IS protected but no where does it guarantee them the RIGHT to erect a Mosque. It doesn't deny them the right but it does not guarantee it either... therefore the decision for it to be built is completely up to democratically elected state officials. State officials are supposed to uphold the majority will of the people and if the entire people of NYC wish this Mosque not to be built then I believe the precedent ultimately should fall on the peoples side of the argument. Compare it the same way the people of a town or city would be opposed to a strip club being built. The people will petition the state, city, or town government to block the building of the club.

People want to talk about sensitivity but how sensative are the followers of Muslim faith being? A couple blocks from ground zero where the worst attack ever in US history was perpetrated by people in the name of thesame faith? Come on people. Even if they are not erecting it as a figurative "fvck you" to NYC its still grossly insensative. Also I have to question the timing.... at the 10 year anniversary or the attacks? Really?

This is a bad idea. I don't have any disdain for the religion, I just see bad things happening to this Mosque and/or it's members including but unfortunately not limited to vandalism, and individual attacks. This will just further fuel the tensions between non-muslims and muslims. 10 years is too soon to be talking or thinking about something like this.

Ultimately though I believe this will be fought in the courts. I just hope the Judge does not factor in the first ammendment. NO ONE is prohibiting them from practicing their religion. You do not need a church, or a temple, or a mosque etc to practice ones religion. One thing is for sure... regardless of your view on this issue both sides of the argument have valid ones. It will be interesting either way to see how this finishes.