No Confidence vote in Louie Lams

[AEWHistory]

Okeedokee, I've decided to post my first ever poll. I'll probably get lambasted for this, but since I'm on record as having lost faith in Lou Lamoriello, I figured that I might as well take the plunge and boil myself in oil with this poll. I think that it is pretty much self-explanatory. Let me know if you think other options should be added.

-Aaron

[Quinn01]

Just because its a bad start to a season doesnt mean the GM should be tossed to the curb. Lou is one if the the best in the league as far as GM's go. Hes been the GM for all three cups. He knows what he is doing its just a scramble right now with everyone, including Lou.

For god sakes, the man has a trophy named after him!

Trust in Lou.

[thegame346]

Lou is an NHL icon and without him we don't have even a sniff of the Stanley Cup finals in our history let alone have 3 cups in 4 trips.

Lou Lams = the difference between one of the most dominant Eastern Conference teams the last 15 years vs the San Jose Sharks of the East.

Edited October 21, 2010 by thegame346

[ice dog]

Lou is an evil magician of a GM... can't imagine having anyone else.

That being said, i'd like Lou to make one or two more moves to solidify the team and rid that albatross of a cap dilemma from the Devils neck.

[LucifersDog]

Lou has made multiple mistakes since the lock out re; length of contact or Dollars associated with the contract or the actual selection of the player or coach. Has he hurt the Devils since the lockout, no worse than not having a GM!!!!!!!

His failure to step up to Marty has hurt the team.

[El Diablo]

ha .. I would have been behind this poll any year leading up to 2010 (ask Tri or DevinLA) -- the kovy signing changes everything.. for good or worse it is what the franchise needed

were headed for some lean years but with lou at the helm and the owner behind him the club will get through..

[ungar]

Lou has made multiple mistakes since the lock out re; length of contact or Dollars associated with the contract or the actual selection of the player or coach. Has he hurt the Devils since the lockout, no worse than not having a GM!!!!!!!

His failure to step up to Marty has hurt the team.

Agreed!

[grcenter47]

I dont want to see Lou leave

[DevilinLA]

Only a fanbase that acquires a generational scorer for a caphit of $6.66 in the same season could complain about its GM.

People complained when Lou was "status quo" and acquired spare parts, people complain when he makes sweeping changes and has the balls to go "all in" to fix an obviously broken team.

Tell me what other GM in hockey (other than maybe Holland) has widespread respect across the boundaries of EVERY pro sport?

In the pro sport world Lamourello = winning hockey.

For all the praise of teams like CHI, PIT or WSH - what other franchise has won 3 recent cups and stayed competitive without the "loser" draft pick making the playoffs year after year.

What other GM has led a franchise to enough success to warrant a state-of-the-art new arena?

Tell, me if you were a GM would you have faith in an HOF Goalie whose loyalty is unquestionable and has led you to multiple cups, or would you follow the advice of some young fans on a message board who have never even known what it REALLY is to be every NHL team's doormat? "Yeah this guy's the best goalie in history but we're going to go with AHL Clemmer for our future"

If Lou decided to purposely tank this team into the draft for the next 3 years he would still be the best thing ever to happen to NJ hockey - EVER - period.

Edited October 21, 2010 by DevilinLA

[Derlique]

Only a fanbase that acquires a generational scorer for a caphit of $6.66 in the same season could complain about its GM.

People complained when Lou was "status quo" and acquired spare parts, people complain when he makes sweeping changes and has the balls to go "all in" to fix an obviously broken team.

Tell me what other GM in hockey (other than maybe Holland) has widespread respect across the boundaries of EVERY pro sport?

In the pro sport world Lamourello = winning hockey.

For all the praise of teams like CHI, PIT or WSH - what other franchise has won 3 recent cups and stayed competitive without the "loser" draft pick making the playoffs year after year.

What other GM has led a franchise to enough success to warrant a state-of-the-art new arena?

Tell, me if you were a GM would you have faith in an HOF Goalie whose loyalty is unquestionable and has led you to multiple cups, or would you follow the advice of some young fans on a message board who have never even known what it REALLY is to be every NHL team's doormat? "Yeah this guy's the best goalie in history but we're going to go with AHL Clemmer for our future"

If Lou decided to purposely tank this team into the draft for the next 3 years he would still be the best thing ever to happen to NJ hockey - EVER - period.

well said

[AEWHistory]

I think that people have made some excellent replies. The fact is that Lou HAS made this team what it is today. The Scouts/Rockies/Devils franchise simply sucked before Lou took the helm, this is indisputable. It is also easy to say that we are now used to winning, our expectations are high, and we are perhaps spoiled. I'd like to put forward some counter arguments and play a little "Devil's Advocate" (heh heh):

1. Just because our expectations for success are high does not mean that we need to lower our expectations. Look at the Red Wings, look at the Canadians, look at the Yankees, and to a lesser extent look at the Cowboys, Steelers, and so on. All of these are sports franchises that expect to win and their fans demand winners. Could you imagine the ownership of ANY of these teams turning to the fans and saying, "hey, we've had a helluva run. In fact, we've had more success than anyone deserves to have, so if we stink it up for awhile that's cool, because we're just chillin'!" Of course not! In fact, I have no doubt that as you read that sentence it sounded ridiculous, and yet many people want to cut Lou some slack because of past success. Okay, this works to a certain extent, but it has now been 7 years since this team has shown much playoff fire. In fact, 7 years is longer than the careers of many GMs.

2. He has awards named after him and he's in the hockey hall of fame? Okay, that's great! Consider the case of Tom Landry. He was an amazing coach and literally created the behemoth Cowboys franchise that football fans came to know and love/hate. Nevertheless, he was fired by Jerry Jones about twenty years ago. Now you may disagree with the decision, but while Jones is an easy target for many of his decisions, it is difficult to knock this one given the Cowboys subsequent success. So, does Landry's dismissal diminish his previous achievements? No, of course not. Do his previous achievements mean that he deserved to keep his job? No, not forever. If we wasn't able to adapt, or he was no longer the person deemed necessary for the job, then he had to go. Unfortunately, Lou Lamoriello is in exactly the same boat. He's been a great GM and nothing he does now will diminish his past achievements. But his past achievements, along with the awards he's received for THOSE achievements, should not color our ability to ascertain whether he is the right man to run the Devils today.

3. Lamoriello as a wizard GM. Again, he's been awesome, but the shine is rubbing off IMHO. Is he one of the greats? Yes. But he has allowed many Devils players to walk without receiving ANY compensation in return. What's more, there have now been multiple mistakes that have cost the Devils high draft picks (having to trade away a 1st rndr. to unload salary; losing another first because of the Kovy contract). These various losses are really starting to be felt as LL has had to make do with less and less each year. The mere fact that he has managed to field a competitive team is a testament to his and the scouting dept.'s skills, but the lack of drafting assets is also a testament to the way that LL has chosen to run, and squander, years of carefully accumulated talent.

4. Picking up on the third point, while the Devils have had some very loyal players such as Daneyko, Stevens, and Brodeur, they've also had some immensely disloyal ones who wanted to bolt ASAP. Unfortunately, the disloyal outnumber the loyal by a fairly large margin. This isn't as bad as it sound, admittedly, since modern athletes are encouraged to be greedy IMO, but the devil is in the details. Some of the players who've bolted, such as our current coach, tells a bit of a story that LL hasn't always managed to be a wizard. Now are the Devils the only franchise to inspire loyalty. After all, I doubt that Ray Bourque would ever have left Boston if winning a cup wasn't a factor. Then there are the Red Wings. They're had a number of key players stay with them for many years or their whole careers (Lidstrom!).

So I concede that Lou is an excellent GM and, in the '90s, was probably one of the two best in the league, if not THE best. But today I think that case is harder to make. But that's merely my opinion.... now excuse me while I find a hiding place that's flame proof!

[ungar]

@AEWHistory

I totally agree with your assessment of Lou.

I have been a vocal critic of LL for over 5 seasons now, much to the displeasure of the KADs.

There are several issues that Lou must address soon:

While our scouting team has declined since discovering Rafalski and Madden, Lou has allowed talented prospects from the AHL affiliate to languish in favor of the CamJans of the league. This had previously caused a moral problem in Lowell. This had led to a once great farm system, becoming mediocre.

The mismanagement of Martin Brodeur in allowing him to play as often as he likes, much to the detriment of the team.

Jamie Langenbrunner is still on this roster, after his mutiny against Jacques Lemaire.

His lack of success in rebuilding the defense after the exits of Rafalski, Stevens,and Daneyko.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

All i can say is who else out there would you want running the team?

I cant think of anyone I would rather have over Lou.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

@AEWHistory

I totally agree with your assessment of Lou.

I have been a vocal critic of LL for over 5 seasons now, much to the displeasure of the KADs.

There are several issues that Lou must address soon:

While our scouting team has declined since discovering Rafalski and Madden, Lou has allowed talented prospects from the AHL affiliate to languish in favor of the CamJans of the league. This had previously caused a moral problem in Lowell. This had led to a once great farm system, becoming mediocre.

The mismanagement of Martin Brodeur in allowing him to play as often as he likes, much to the detriment of the team.

Jamie Langenbrunner is still on this roster, after his mutiny against Jacques Lemaire.

His lack of success in rebuilding the defense after the exits of Rafalski, Stevens,and Daneyko.

Im not going to lie there was a spell where the farm was shocking, no one would deny that.

But over the last few years Lou and the rest of the scouting team has drafted fantastically, and Albany is probably in the best shape it has been for the past 5 seasons. So basically you are 5 years to late with this statement.

We have been drafting and signing players who are getting retunrs such as Kovlachuk and Jason Arnott. That means we are doing something right.

Taormina didnt just appear out of thin air.

Alos name a few prospects who have "languished" in the AHL? I can't think of any , especaily those who have gone on to make anything of themselves.

[AEWHistory]

All i can say is who else out there would you want running the team?

I cant think of anyone I would rather have over Lou.

Fair question. My personal preference would be to give his son a shot. I recall reading that his son was being groomed to take his place anyway, so let's see what the 'kid' can do. My hope would be that he'd be able to combine the franchise building qualities that Lou has brought to our franchise with the flexibility of a younger man (and one who hasn't held the same job for nearly a quarter of a century).

[AEWHistory]

Alos name a few prospects who have "languished" in the AHL? I can't think of any , especaily those who have gone on to make anything of themselves.

I tend to think that Ungar has a point here. Wasn't it just 6 or 8 months ago that the board was lit up with calls for Lemaire's head because he had started the season with some of the younger players--who'd played with some passion it was added--only to revert to veterans, sending the younger players back down again? I recall this being a common theme. The point is that at the start of last season alot of the posters felt that our success was because of the younger players that were subsequently banished back to the minors after a brief stint in the NHL. OTOH, you could argue that this run was a fluke, but then again, the Devils didn't exactly end the season on fire....

BTW, one last note: what you're asking is, in and of itself, a mutually exclusive request. A player who's languishing in the minors, by definition, has not made anything of themselves and a player who's "made it" is not languishing in the minors (unless your goals as a professional hockey player plateaued at the minors that is).

Edited October 21, 2010 by AEWHistory

[ZeroGravityFat]

LL is god on earth, we are lucky to have him and should never ever upset him, love and cherish him in sickness and death.

[titans04]

AEWHistory have you seen all the success that the "kid" has brought to the minor league franchises over the years and the magic he's worked on those markets?

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Fair question. My personal preference would be to give his son a shot. I recall reading that his son was being groomed to take his place anyway, so let's see what the 'kid' can do. My hope would be that he'd be able to combine the franchise building qualities that Lou has brought to our franchise with the flexibility of a younger man (and one who hasn't held the same job for nearly a quarter of a century).

Groomed by Lou, so basically you are getting a Lou product, an imitation if you will. I would be surprised if Chris didn't have the same values and philosophies as his father (i cant say for sure, someone out there might have more insight than me). Isn't that just like for like? iI which case it doesn't solve your problem because he will just follow the Lou method of GM'ing and end up with the same product.

But why have an imitation when you can have the real thing??

When the time comes for Lou to hang up his cap and call it a day, by all means give Chris a shot, but I cant see the point if Lou is still around.

I tend to think that Ungar has a point here. Wasn't it just 6 or 8 months ago that the board was lit up with calls for Lemaire's head because he had started the season with some of the younger players--who'd played with some passion it was added--only to revert to veterans, sending the younger players back down again? I recall this being a common theme. The point is that at the start of last season alot of the posters felt that our success was because of the younger players that were subsequently banished back to the minors after a brief stint in the NHL. OTOH, you could argue that this run was a fluke, but then again, the Devils didn't exactly end the season on fire....

All those players are still within the organisation or have been traded for assets. Bergfors to Atlanta, Halischuk to Nashville, the rest I believe are still with Albany or in the NHL (Zharkhov, Palmeiri, Sestito and Corrente). Halishuck and Bergforns are now out of the question and we have gained good returns on them so that’s a positive, and they gave the club value to work with. The rest are either getting their shot (Corrente and sestitio) or still aren’t ready but will be given a chance (Zharkov and Palmeiri) and you would be hard pressed to say either of them is languishing.

Also I was more addressing his point about the quality of the organisations prospects , he was stating that Albany was currently Mediocre or had become mediocre as a team. They have been historically, but I feel that they have finally turned a corner (making the playoffs for the first time in years) and currently the system is anything but, its the best it has been in years.

Also how can we have talented prospects, who can make the jump to the NHL, that are languishing in a Mediocre AHL team? If that’s the case shouldn’t they be languishing in a stacked out AHL team full of NHL ready players who would be tearing it up?

If some of the players they have now don't make the jump in a few years then some might be langushing (Tedenby, Josefson if he returns, Corrente, Urbom).

BTW, one last note: what you're asking is, in and of itself, a mutually exclusive request. A player who's languishing in the minors, by definition, has not made anything of themselves and a player who's "made it" is not languishing in the minors (unless your goals as a professional hockey player plateaued at the minors that is).

I might not have made it clear, name a player who was languishing at a certain point in time in Lowell or Albany that has since moved on or been traded and is now finding success with another NHL organisation. Im thinking players like Voros etc etc.

And if that is still un-answerable, an example of a player who is currently Languishing (because I cant think of any)? or was languishing before they were traded?

Edited October 21, 2010 by Chimaira_Devil_#9

[Hi, I'm VALUE!]

The salary cap years have been a bit of a learning experience for the Devils, what with the lengthy expensive contracts and the circumvention business. But it's not like we're the freakin' Panthers here. We make moves to attempt to address issues. We've now got four franchise players on our roster (even if some of them aren't playing like it), and we have a somewhat of a transition plan for the post-Marty years. We'll be out of "salary cap hell" inside of two years, barring more bogus NHL "penalties" for violating rules other violate on a daily basis. We're fine under the Lamorillo watch.

[DevsMan84]

Another point you can make is that because of our regular season success, I cannot remember a time at least in the last 10 years where we had a top 15 draft pick. Look at Pittsburgh and Washington. The core of the their teams were drafted during the periods when they were terrible for a few years. Hard to really completely say that the farm team is a total bust, but you are right in saying we really do not have a "top" prospect in our system.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Another point you can make is that because of our regular season success, I cannot remember a time at least in the last 10 years where we had a top 15 draft pick. Look at Pittsburgh and Washington. The core of the their teams were drafted during the periods when they were terrible for a few years. Hard to really completely say that the farm team is a total bust, but you are right in saying we really do not have a "top" prospect in our system.

Hang on isn't this a posative? Lou has kept us competative without the high end draft picks or having to blow a season to find tallent.

Because we haven't sucked we havent had to build through the draft. Isn't that making a good case for some Excellent GM'ing.

Through thoes same periods we ended up with Zach Parise and Travis Zajac. Hardly horendous, and we didn't have to compramise sucsess on the ice.

You are right though Crappy GM'ing.

Also most would consider Josefson and Tedenby top prospects. For starters one might start on a line with Iyla Kovlachuk tonight.

[DevsMan84]

Hang on isn't this a posative? Lou has kept us competative without the high end draft picks or having to blow a season to find tallent.

Because we haven't sucked we havent had to build through the draft. Isn't that making a good case for some Excellent GM'ing.

Through thoes same periods we ended up with Zach Parise and Travis Zajac. Hardly horendous, and we didn't have to compramise sucsess on the ice.

You are right though Crappy GM'ing.

Also most would consider Josefson and Tedenby top prospects. For starters one might start on a line with Iyla Kovlachuk tonight.

ANd the next game he could be demoted. A top prospect to me is like Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Seguin, Hall, etc. We do not have that. Last time I remember us having a top prospect was Parise and that had a lot of luck in it (What if the Rangers chose him instead of Jessiman?), plus it was quite possibly the best draft ever.

Zajac was another good prospect, but again I would not put him in the top category. Look at Pittsburgh, they got top prospects like Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. Washington got Ovie, Backstromm, and Semin. I would not put Tedenby, Josefson, or Zajac in the same category as them.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

ANd the next game he could be demoted. A top prospect to me is like Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Seguin, Hall, etc. We do not have that. Last time I remember us having a top prospect was Parise and that had a lot of luck in it (What if the Rangers chose him instead of Jessiman?), plus it was quite possibly the best draft ever.

Zajac was another good prospect, but again I would not put him in the top category. Look at Pittsburgh, they got top prospects like Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. Washington got Ovie, Backstromm, and Semin. I would not put Tedenby, Josefson, or Zajac in the same category as them.

You are missing the point, they had to suck to get those players, would you really want that as a fan? i sure as hell wouldn't. I could have run their teams and they could have ended up with those players, its not hard to put together a crap team and draft Ovechkins. Give me an NHL team and i will have you the number one pick garunteed by christmas (unless stather has other idea's).

Also the first three are generational tallents. You don't get thoes unless you are really crap or make a trade with the Leafs.

If the Rangers had picked him they would have a good GM and scouting team because they would have done their job, they didn't, we did, hence why we have one of the best GM's and scouting teams in the NHL.

A good Gm keeps the team competative and still finds the tallent, thats what Lou has done.

[AEWHistory]

Let me ask you something Chimaira, does the ship actually have to sink for you to admit that we're taking on water?

Just like the other teams mentioned, the Devils were also built during years of poor performance. Where do you think Brodeur, Daneyko, Stephens (thru Shanny), Niedermeyer, MacLean, and a host of our other great players all came from? What you just did was name a couple players that have come thru the farm system in the last ten years. Great, I hope more come thru. OTOH, the Devils farm system of the late-80s and early-90s can now be looked back on as one of the greatest in hockey history. For that I thank Lou. The problem is that those players are now retiring. Coincidence, no? As those players have gotten older and retired, our fortunes have waned, and a few successes here and there haven't been enough to offset the mistakes when you're working with meager resources.

I would also like to note that, just like the Devils, the Red Wings have had just as much success and really more. Yet my impression, and I could be wrong, is that they are still in pretty good shape vis-a-vis their farm system. I don't know how they've done it, but the Devils could have compensated by getting compensation for quality players leaving the franchise and by not relying on giving up draft picks to fix mistakes.

Again, I'll cite the example of Tom Landry: no one, myself included, is impugning Lou's past successes or what he has done for this franchise. What I am wondering is if he is still the best man for the job in this climate. Frankly, I don't believe in having absolute faith in anyone....

One last point: neither I, nor any of you, nor Lou, nor Chris have any proveable idea how he'll perform as a GM, and the only solid information indicating his likely performance is going to be kept private in the Devs front office. That said, I think that it is a complete misinterpretation of teaching and mentoring to assume that just because you have the 'teacher' it is worthless to hire the 'student' because this person is bound to be a pale imitation. People thought Bill Belicheck was just Bill Parcells sidekick until a decade ago.... now who has more Super Bowl rings? And if you REALLY do feel that way, then we simply MUST fire Lou and find the dude who taught him everything, because that guy must simply be a rockin' success... somewhere.... who the hell is he anyway?