2nd group mulling NHL in Hamilton, Ont.

[Triumph]

Actually, I'd argue that there was never really a reason to move from Quebec and, hence, it could support and NHL team. As for Winnipeg, I don't know, but could it really be worse than Tampon Bay? I mean, that is core hockey country, wheras Florida is core retirement home country.

Maybe I'm biased, but in my opinion most of the teams that have moved actually moved for poor reasons:

1. Quebec needed a new arena, but they had good support and given the product they had supplied up to that point, the community was amazing. Just imagine what the attendance would've been in the '90s during what turned out to be the Avalanche's glory years.

2. The Whalers are in a fairly similar boat to the above, but the success has been slimmer and later. Still, Hartford supported its team.

3. The North Stars leaving always bothered me alot. I'm not terribly informed on the details here, but I've always felt that any problems could and should have been worked out. After all, Minnesota is a great hockey market. And in the end even the NHL had to put a franchise back there.

4. The Jets leaving bothered me not because of any tradition issue, but because I feel strongly that Canada deserves to have more representation in the NHL. The Senators made up for losing a couple other teams, but still.... this move just smacks of an attempt to capitalize on snowbirds and, frankly, it has failed IMHO.

Did I miss any of the recent moves?

never a reason to move from quebec? when eric lindros said no to quebec. montreal can't even lure free agents to its city, and there's a ton of english speaking going on there. quebec didn't even have a daily newspaper in english. so to go there is basically like going to a foreign country in a lot of ways. there's no way that a team from quebec could've competed in the free agency era. then to throw in the fact that quebec city just isn't big enough to have any kind of corporate support, which is where the real dollars come in, as don said. the question i ask is, can a city support 17,000 people buying tickets at $70 Cdn on average? if the nordiques had stayed in quebec, we would've seen all kinds of defections from there once their guys reached free agency.

winnipeg is in the same boat. metro area of under 700,000. not a lot of disposable income flying around. where is the money supposed to come from to support these teams? in the end, the owners of them sold and walked away because they made a ton more with the sale of the team than they ever could have made in that city - they saw the writing on the wall and wisely got out.

[Satans Hockey]

As for Winnipeg, I don't know, but could it really be worse than Tampon Bay? I mean, that is core hockey country, wheras Florida is core retirement home country.

Tampa Bays attendance over the past few seasons has been pretty good. It tailed off this season because the team stunk, but they averaged more fans than we did.

Winnipeg isn't going to happen so it's a pointless argument, their arena only holds around 15k for hockey and was only built like 4 years ago, they aren't going to knock that arena down to build one that can hold an nhl team.

[AEWHistory]

Tampa Bays attendance over the past few seasons has been pretty good. It tailed off this season because the team stunk, but they averaged more fans than we did.

Winnipeg isn't going to happen so it's a pointless argument, their arena only holds around 15k for hockey and was only built like 4 years ago, they aren't going to knock that arena down to build one that can hold an nhl team.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a team is going to move back (although keep in mind that that arena was built w/o an NHL team in the neighborhood; a bigger arena, if only slightly larger, would likely have been built if the Jets had stayed). What I'm trying to say is that an established team like the Jets needn't have moved unless there were real problems. After all, the problems that 'yotes are facing are currently much worse than anything I recall the Jets experiencing.

As for Tampa, mostly I'm just making fun, although I can't help but wonder how much of their recent attendance success has been coattails from their cup run success. Once that fades, where will they be?

[AEWHistory]

never a reason to move from quebec? when eric lindros said no to quebec. montreal can't even lure free agents to its city, and there's a ton of english speaking going on there. quebec didn't even have a daily newspaper in english. so to go there is basically like going to a foreign country in a lot of ways. there's no way that a team from quebec could've competed in the free agency era. then to throw in the fact that quebec city just isn't big enough to have any kind of corporate support, which is where the real dollars come in, as don said. the question i ask is, can a city support 17,000 people buying tickets at $70 Cdn on average? if the nordiques had stayed in quebec, we would've seen all kinds of defections from there once their guys reached free agency.

winnipeg is in the same boat. metro area of under 700,000. not a lot of disposable income flying around. where is the money supposed to come from to support these teams? in the end, the owners of them sold and walked away because they made a ton more with the sale of the team than they ever could have made in that city - they saw the writing on the wall and wisely got out.

I take your point, although I think it is much stronger with Winnipeg than Quebec. I think the whole point about language and culture is, with all due respect, specious. After all, hockey is increasingly a cross-cultural endeavour, not to mention multi-lingual. Not that might not mean much to the NHL, but it isn't a fluke that the NFL has been toying with games in Mexico City and there has even been talk of eventually moving a franchise there one day. Now Mex. City is much larger than Quebec, but it is also much poorer and the stadium it would need to fill is way bigger (albeit for fewer games). So if American football can move into virgin territory, why can't hockey survive in places where it was born?

Now I understand your point about Winnipeg, but would the Jets have really been worse off staying Canada than in Phoenix? That's really my point. I don't doubt that Winnipeg would be near the bottom of franchise cities if they were still in the NHL, but look at the money that the 'yotes are losing. After all, if left alone, this franchise would've folded by now, whereas I think that they'd at least still be viable in Winnipeg. OTOH, maybe I'm wrong. Do you think they'd be even worse off had they stayed in Winnipeg?

[Triumph]

I take your point, although I think it is much stronger with Winnipeg than Quebec. I think the whole point about language and culture is, with all due respect, specious. After all, hockey is increasingly a cross-cultural endeavour, not to mention multi-lingual. Not that might not mean much to the NHL, but it isn't a fluke that the NFL has been toying with games in Mexico City and there has even been talk of eventually moving a franchise there one day. Now Mex. City is much larger than Quebec, but it is also much poorer and the stadium it would need to fill is way bigger (albeit for fewer games). So if American football can move into virgin territory, why can't hockey survive in places where it was born?

the talk about mexico city is just that - talk. i'd be shocked if that happened in the next 20 years. i understand that the nhl is a cross-cultural and multi-lingual sport, but players from all over the world come here to play in the best league in the world. but do they want their children growing up speaking french in school, or in some private school where english is taught? or do they want their children to live somewhere else? these are legitimate questions - the point is that quebec could not possibly draw in non-french players with any regularity, not when it is such a tiny market, not when it has no money anyway. could a team in quebec city be profitable while spending 60 million Cdn on player salaries?

Now I understand your point about Winnipeg, but would the Jets have really been worse off staying Canada than in Phoenix? That's really my point. I don't doubt that Winnipeg would be near the bottom of franchise cities if they were still in the NHL, but look at the money that the 'yotes are losing. After all, if left alone, this franchise would've folded by now, whereas I think that they'd at least still be viable in Winnipeg. OTOH, maybe I'm wrong. Do you think they'd be even worse off had they stayed in Winnipeg?

as i see it the coyotes money problems are not entirely related to the operation of the franchise. and the team never would have stayed in winnipeg - it would have been moved somewhere else by the year 2004. calgary and edmonton, both robust franchises now who spend up to the salary cap, both cities flush with oil money, were both in serious financial trouble for the whole 2000s. a parade of guys left edmonton because they couldn't get paid there - bill guerin, doug weight, anson carter, and that's just off the top of my head. there was always talk of them possibly moving if things didn't change. the ownership in winnipeg sold out before it was evident that his team had no chance to compete - but after it had to trade its best player, teemu selanne, in only his 4th nhl season.

[AEWHistory]

the talk about mexico city is just that - talk. i'd be shocked if that happened in the next 20 years. i understand that the nhl is a cross-cultural and multi-lingual sport, but players from all over the world come here to play in the best league in the world. but do they want their children growing up speaking french in school, or in some private school where english is taught? or do they want their children to live somewhere else? these are legitimate questions - the point is that quebec could not possibly draw in non-french players with any regularity, not when it is such a tiny market, not when it has no money anyway. could a team in quebec city be profitable while spending 60 million Cdn on player salaries?

as i see it the coyotes money problems are not entirely related to the operation of the franchise. and the team never would have stayed in winnipeg - it would have been moved somewhere else by the year 2004. calgary and edmonton, both robust franchises now who spend up to the salary cap, both cities flush with oil money, were both in serious financial trouble for the whole 2000s. a parade of guys left edmonton because they couldn't get paid there - bill guerin, doug weight, anson carter, and that's just off the top of my head. there was always talk of them possibly moving if things didn't change. the ownership in winnipeg sold out before it was evident that his team had no chance to compete - but after it had to trade its best player, teemu selanne, in only his 4th nhl season.

I'd like to answer this in more depth later, but there is something that I wanted to point out that bothered me. If teams like the Oilers are spending up to the salary cap, as you suggest, then their players aren't bolting because of the money problems of the franchise. That would be irrelevant. The franchise could have wads of cash, but under cap rules they couldn't pay anyone any more. So either they aren't using their cap because of financial problems or they aren't managing their cap well enough to bring in and/or keep key players. Every team operates under the same cap, so a team can only spend less.... not more.

[Colin226]

I spoke to a die hard Leafs fan about this and he said, "I'd definitely support the team and go to the games. I mean, I'll always be a Leafs fan first, but I think the other team would grow on me"

The city can support it and I think the fans would be very open to having a second team.. Hamilton, NJ would be a better choice in my opinion though

[Triumph]

I'd like to answer this in more depth later, but there is something that I wanted to point out that bothered me. If teams like the Oilers are spending up to the salary cap, as you suggest, then their players aren't bolting because of the money problems of the franchise. That would be irrelevant. The franchise could have wads of cash, but under cap rules they couldn't pay anyone any more. So either they aren't using their cap because of financial problems or they aren't managing their cap well enough to bring in and/or keep key players. Every team operates under the same cap, so a team can only spend less.... not more.

what i am saying is that those events happened before the lockout when the oilers couldn't afford their best players. post-lockout, the team is in much better financial shape and is in no danger of moving.

[AEWHistory]

what i am saying is that those events happened before the lockout when the oilers couldn't afford their best players. post-lockout, the team is in much better financial shape and is in no danger of moving.

Okay, fair 'nuff. Out of curiosity, would Winnipeg have had the same benefit and/or gone thru the same routine? To put it another way, is there any oil money around there? If not, is Winnipeg benefitting from the booming Canadian diamond industry? I am pretty sure that one of the two are near to Winnipeg, although I'm not sure.

I spoke to a die hard Leafs fan about this and he said, "I'd definitely support the team and go to the games. I mean, I'll always be a Leafs fan first, but I think the other team would grow on me"

The city can support it and I think the fans would be very open to having a second team.. Hamilton, NJ would be a better choice in my opinion though

LOL.... Well, I'm more of a Trenton guy....

wow, not much love for Canada here....