Best in the League

[bruins4777]

I do not think Joe Thornton is close to being the best player in the league. Nothing against Joe I like him and do think he is a good player. But I think Mario Lamieux is the best player in the league.

well lemieux of course would be the best but he gets injured every 2 games and always comes back. which is for the same reason why floppa isn't the best. the injury factor.

[squishyx]

he is 2nd in the list of the most points in the league for the past 3 years 2nd to only nazzy himself. and to to mention he missed a good deal(nearly 20 games) of the 2001-2002 season because of injuries.

and when thornton dominantes it is as good if not better than floppa.

I doubt that. Had Forsberg played the whole season he would have been on pace for 120+ points. That is pure domination. Forsberg ppg is insane also. I saw on another board that its around 1.6ppg.

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

maybe foresberg took a more defensive role, and became a better overall player making the team better overall, just like thornton did, thats how you explains his drop off in production

[bruins4777]

In today's game, checking is part of hockey. The great ones have the ability to still produce under that pressure. Sakic is one of those guys who faced that kind of pressure and destroyed his opponent propelling his team to a Cup. That's greatness.

100 points while being checked is pretty good. and he is still young he will prove to u he will be better eventually. he's only 24.

Thornton is 25, and being that young is why I wouldn't chose him to be the best in the NHL. He hasn't produced as consistently as Naslund, nor has he been as dominate as Forsberg. Add that to the fact that he hasn't ever really produced in the playoffs and Thornton is a few blocks off the list.

he is 2nd in the list of the most points in the league for the past 3 years 2nd to only nazzy himself. and to to mention he missed a good deal(nearly 20 games) of the 2001-2002 season because of injuries.

and when thornton dominantes it is as good if not better than floppa.

and if we were having a debate about who the 2nd best scorer in the last three years was, thornton certainly would be the guy.

but we are talking BEST overall, and it has to span some time, more then just 3 years. and as you so clearly pointed out a BETTER player out scored him during that stretch.

as for injuries? well that HAS to factor in to weather or not a player is the best. if you are gonna cut yourself or tear a ligament every time you touch the ice your obviosuly not the bet player in the game.

naslund is pretty damn lost on defense. he has been pretty poor for the past 3 years. up until last year he didn't do much except float defensively he tried but he just wasn't good. finally this year he has improved drastically defensively while not solid he is not as much as a liability.

thornton has been much better than nazzy defensively which why he is better. i also said u COULD make an argument for nazzy being better but i have yet to see it from anybody.

[bruins4777]

he is 2nd in the list of the most points in the league for the past 3 years 2nd to only nazzy himself. and to to mention he missed a good deal(nearly 20 games) of the 2001-2002 season because of injuries.

and when thornton dominantes it is as good if not better than floppa.

I doubt that. Had Forsberg played the whole season he would have been on pace for 120+ points. That is pure domination. Forsberg ppg is insane also. I saw on another board that its around 1.6ppg.

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

maybe foresberg took a more defensive role, and became a better overall player making the team better overall, just like thornton did, thats how you explains his drop off in production

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

[MissionHockey]

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

I wouldn't put it past Forsberg to put up a season with at least 110 points. In 2003 he had 106 points in 75 games. If he had played those final 8 games he was on pace for 115 points.

Obviously its a long shot that Forsberg will ever play a whole season, but he is easily the most dominate player today if you exclude Lemieux.

[bruins4777]

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

I wouldn't put it past Forsberg to put up a season with at least 110 points. In 2003 he had 106 points in 75 games. If he had played those final 8 games he was on pace for 115 points.

Obviously its a long shot that Forsberg will ever play a whole season, but he is easily the most dominate player today if you exclude Lemieux.

ok i'll give u that. but i consider not getting injured as part of dominance. floppa is too injury prone for me.

nazzy is better as a leader anyways which is another factor.

[squishyx]

he is 2nd in the list of the most points in the league for the past 3 years 2nd to only nazzy himself. and to to mention he missed a good deal(nearly 20 games) of the 2001-2002 season because of injuries.

and when thornton dominantes it is as good if not better than floppa.

I doubt that. Had Forsberg played the whole season he would have been on pace for 120+ points. That is pure domination. Forsberg ppg is insane also. I saw on another board that its around 1.6ppg.

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

maybe foresberg took a more defensive role, and became a better overall player making the team better overall, just like thornton did, thats how you explains his drop off in production

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

well way to not pick up on the sarcasm. and ill comment on whatever i see fiot thank you very much, its quite clear that you are a raging thorntan fan, thats fine. and if you want to belive he is the best, go ahead, but i pretty much think everyone here and their grandmother disagree's.

you keep bringing up stats (as if thats the important thing) of what he did for 3 years, yet he was outscored during those 3 years by someone else. then you try cover for his offensive drop off by saying he played a more defensive game, but when i suggest that someone else did the same thing all you have to come back with is "well you dont watch joe ::cries:: and you cant say anything!! ::pouts some more::" well deal with it, he is not the best player, not statistically, not defensivly, not even when it comes to leadership.

btw, forsberg scored 1.278 ppg and thornton only scored .827

[MissionHockey]

naslund is pretty damn lost on defense. he has been pretty poor for the past 3 years. up until last year he didn't do much except float defensively he tried but he just wasn't good. finally this year he has improved drastically defensively while not solid he is not as much as a liability.

thornton has been much better than nazzy defensively which why he is better. i also said u COULD make an argument for nazzy being better but i have yet to see it from anybody.

If we are taking defense into account, then by your logic Elias blows Thornton away as the best player in the NHL (and honestly we know that isn't true). Personally, I would take Pronger, Forsberg, Niedermayer and Lidstrom before Thornton.

[Giuseppe]

he is 2nd in the list of the most points in the league for the past 3 years 2nd to only nazzy himself. and to to mention he missed a good deal(nearly 20 games) of the 2001-2002 season because of injuries.

and when thornton dominantes it is as good if not better than floppa.

I doubt that. Had Forsberg played the whole season he would have been on pace for 120+ points. That is pure domination. Forsberg ppg is insane also. I saw on another board that its around 1.6ppg.

it was 1.5 and there was no way he could have kept up that pace. look at his incredible drop off in the san jose series when he was at full health. all he did was stand around divign and yelling at refs while putting up zip points in the last 4 games when the team needed him most. while sakic stepped up big time, didn't dive, didn't bitch, just flat out played. and look what happened.

maybe foresberg took a more defensive role, and became a better overall player making the team better overall, just like thornton did, thats how you explains his drop off in production

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

How do you know for sure? They could have Center Ice.

[Chris]

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

Personally, I watched nearly every Bruins game last season.

[squishyx]

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

Personally, I watched nearly every Bruins game last season.

see that doesnt matter, because he will come up with some other childish argument about why your opnion doesnt count, and his is the only important one.

[bruins4777]

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

Personally, I watched nearly every Bruins game last season.

see that doesnt matter, because he will come up with some other childish argument about why your opnion doesnt count, and his is the only important one.

wow i didn't know a childish argument is showing u solid facts.

i wish i was like u and everytime i get in a long argument i'll call them childish becaue they use facts.

[oofrostonoo]

There is no consistant "best" player......this years best player was Iginla....but he isnt the best....you cant judge best very well becaue you have to look at all aroundness (is that a word) and consistency.

You cant call Martin Brodeur the best player....you can call him the best goalie.....

I think if i had to choose a best player it would still be a healty mario lemieux....if you watch him during a full game where is is 100% and playing well he is amazing....but hr is rarely healthy so its blurry..

[Chris]

wow i didn't know a childish argument is showing u solid facts.

i wish i was like u and everytime i get in a long argument i'll call them childish becaue they use facts.

Where are these "facts" that you speak of, my friend? I am very interested.

[squishyx]

um...no he simply didn't produce. i'm sorry if u rarely watch thornton. when u watch a player so little don't comment like u know what ur talking about.

Personally, I watched nearly every Bruins game last season.

see that doesnt matter, because he will come up with some other childish argument about why your opnion doesnt count, and his is the only important one.

wow i didn't know a childish argument is showing u solid facts.

i wish i was like u and everytime i get in a long argument i'll call them childish becaue they use facts.

what the h*ll are u talking about, what solid facts??? please, re-list them would you? (these so called facts of yours)

and you told me to stop posting because apparently you are the end all knowing hockey guru that knows everything and i wasn

[SHEDEVIL30]

to me if you are talking consistancy in a player over the past few years, that would have to be Sakic. He shows up EVERY game, plays his heart out, inspires the team by his leadership and has the CONSISTANT stats to back all this up.

oo-o1 118 pts

01-02 78 pts

02-03 58 pts (he had a injury marred year, and still got 26 goals and 32 assts.

03-04 87 pts

As a matter of fact if you look back to the past 16 seasons he has played you will see that Sakic has never gone below 58 pts in a season and has had 5 seasons w/ over a 100pts plus. Factor in his amazing wrist shot and smart unselfish play, to me he stands out over the rest (yes mario has better #'s and Gretz) But to pick a guy out of todays lineup, no question it is Sakic.

*yes the other Joe, Thornton is a good player and has the ablity to become one of the better ones, but differnce to me is Sakic always has been that better player from the beginning.

[NJDevs4978]

Well first off I can't put Thornton in any top five, let alone as the top player. Maybe if he'd had another 100 point season and actually did something in the playoffs but he dropped to like 80 this year, no? Yeah he had the rib injury but he was shut down in the playoffs last year and he stunk against Montreal in the regular season too, with a healthy rib. Plus he's a bit sulky (as evidenced by his complaint earlier in the year about retiring if penalties weren't called on slashes against him), that's not particularly leader-like.

Second off, bruins, squishy - play nice now. Stick to the facts (and opinions) and leave the name-calling out of it.

[squishyx]

my apologies if i insulted anyone by calling they're comments "childish".

[bruins4777]

i thought this over last night. and i think that either sakic, nazzy, or brodeur is the best in the league. but probaby brodeur. so i now say brodeur. but i still say thornton is top 5

1.brodeur

2.nazzy

3.sakic

4.thornton

5.floppa

[bruins4777]

I don't necessarily care what the sport is at stake, any captain that threatens to retire at the tender age of 24 complaining to the media as many times as he has over the last four or five years isn't worthy of top player in my mind. What exactly does that say to all your teammates as a leader when you tuck your tail between your legs and envision running away instead of confronting adversity when push comes to shove? Sorry, but he still has a lot of growing up to do. Also, I don't really care to hear him spearheading the movement for more discipline in the league when he's been arrested in bar brawls and suspended himself for some pretty outrageous stickwork incidents including a spear to Markov's groin which was particularly nasty. If thats your idea of a natural born leader, I guess we have entirely different opinions of what constitutes the best player in the league today. Great player with unbelievable skills by all means, but lets not throw him top five when he's never once proved his mettle in the postseason which is ultimately what matters most. Living near Boston myself, I watched JT all year last season on NESN and he played a really soft peripheral game for large parts of the season afraid to even venture near the crease where great players routinely setup shop every night. Quite frankly and I've said this before several times over both here and on Hockey's Future, Brian Gionta demonstrates more heart, willingness to pay the price in the danger zones, guts, and grit in one shift then Joe Thornton typically does in several games combined. Best part is, Gionta doesn't cry like a little baby about all the meanies trying to slow him down with obstructions and slashes and the guy takes way more punishment then JT does. Lets be honest here. Joe is the captain and he's not been able to help get a team thats finished top in their division a few times past the first round.

Gionta doesn't cry like a little baby about all the meanies trying to slow him down with obstructions and slashes and the guy takes way more punishment then JT does

u just discounted ur whole post with that. gionta looks like he takes lots of punishment because he is small.

and ur little thing about "anybody who whines doesn't desereved to be considered" is total bullsh!t. lemieux whines more than thornton so does that mean he isn't an incredible talent and leader? theo fleury did. so does todd bertuzzi and he by far takes the most sh!t in the league. and so does floppa. lots of players complain.

[bruins4777]

I don't necessarily care what the sport is at stake, any captain that threatens to retire at the tender age of 24 complaining to the media as many times as he has over the last four or five years isn't worthy of top player in my mind.

[bruins4777]

and u still didn't answer to the fact that there are so many more players who bitch than thornton and some who bitch even more. thornton only complains when something happens that is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. one example is "junior slasher" nikko dimitrakos when he intentionally highsticked thornton in the face right in between his eyes and up his forhead to the point that thornton's helment fell off. and of course he is gonna bitch about that. u wouldn't? gionta wouldn't? btw no penalty was called on that and it was with about 1:20 left in the game.

I did answer that though. Most of the players complaining about the league last season have every right to say so as they've played for eons. You named players like Mario Lemieux and Theo Fleury who both have paid their dues a dozen times over as opposed to a player like Joe Thornton who went out of his way to really blast the officials publically in the papers and on TV many times over early in his budding career. Personally my own theory on some of Thornton's continuing undisciplined anger and whining stems from when Mike Keenan coached him and Keenan always made a point of chatting with the nights officials before the game started to plead his teams case that more calls needed to be made anytime an opposing player breathed on Joe Thornton. He preached to Joe that he needed to play like a Todd Bertuzzi "enraged bull in a china shop" to get his respect in the league and play at his very best for the team. The net result is we have a Joe Thornton today who still struggles with riding the fence over playing with a chip on your shoulder and also playing smart at the same time.

FWIW, I also thought it was a total sham to hear a guy like Jeremy Roenick going on a long diatribe about hooking, holding, and obstruction killing the NHL when he's as much a part of the problem as any other player in the game today imo. You could watch him committing the same exact infractions and obstructions he railed about literally less then 24 hours after his rants to the media. These kinds of gripes don't hold as much water when it comes from a player that has no room to talk in my eyes.

I did see the game you referred to and yes that was a horrendous non-call (a regular Bruins fan on HF used the picture of Joe's bleeding face as his avatar for a few months afterwards in protest while others had pictures of the officials wearing dark black sunglasses as the three blind mice with a caption asking Joe if anything was wrong.) In all fairness here though, a former Bruins captain, who I have all the respect in the world, used to take nasty high sticks to the face and head damn near every game without similar complaints in Jason Allison. Difference is, Jason Allison just played through it and made the other team pay for it with goals and assists instead of lamenting over all the non-calls. Get made then get revenge on the scoreboard as opposed to sending yourself to the box over a dumb retaliatory penalty.

personally i don't feel thornton would be as effective as he is know if he played lik bertuzzi. in bertuzzi's position he just kinda sits in front of the net and pounds away at defensemen and gets goals and such. but to me a HUGE part of thornton's game is setting up players and making everybody around him better such as murray and knuble. he turned a grinder into a 30 goal/20 goal guy. he turned an inconsistent 20 goal off and on guy into a consistent 40/30 goal guy. and if he just sat in front of the net that would take apart a huge part of his game. along with that thornton has to take more responsibilities defensively being a center so i think he is better the way he is playing now. i'd like to see him shoot and charge the net more, but right now he is still fine the way he is to me.

and there is no way anybody complains more than floppa. floppa not only complains but dives a ridiculous amount only tucker and possibly maltby do it more.