English as an Official Language

[DevilinLA]

By doing what? What has the Latino community done to you this week?

How's the "Latino" community faring up there in Canada?

I really take offense to the whole idea of a Latino community especially when there is an argument over official language going on.

I don't see a correlation to the French in Quebec which is a province steeped in the French language, history and culture to the Spanish speaking immigrants from various countries that have entered this country, many of whom have learned English and are fluent not to mention the many that are fifth or gosh even more generation American that don't even speak Spanish any longer. Immigrants always initially congregate in one area and speak their native language. In Palisades Park NJ Korean is by far the "second" language there. The US also has a large Chinese population on the East and West coasts. For many immigrants, Spanish speaking included, they came here and learned English because they desired to be American and adopt their new homeland. The problem is that the Spanish speaking immigrants are here in such large numbers and especially illegally (who are the ones least likely to learn English) there is a belief, real or perhaps perceived, that these people will want to be accomodated in their language. It has happened at such government offices such as MVC. I am in education and ESL teachers have said that many (not all) of their Spanish speaking students don't feel the need to learn English, unlike the immigrants who speak other languages. For some reason this newest wave of Spanish speaking immigrants feel that they should not have to learn English. It is this attitude that has spurred the official language debate. The US has always had multiple languages spoken but no other group has balked at learning English like the Spanish speakers have. I grew up with a large Cuban population and this never was an issue. But the county I grew up in now found it necessary to print the phone book in English and Spanish. Many Cuban/Americans were upset with this. But the new groups that have come into the county are Guatamalen and Dominican. None of those immigrants get along particularly well either. I guess the umbrella of "Latino community" only takes you so far.

If Canada were to make Mandarin Chinese an official language that would a much better comparison to the US making Spanish an official language. As for the "Latino"community in Canada, I knew it was very small and that's why I asked. You are commenting on something that has little effect in your country. You cannot understand the illegal immigrant situation in this country since Canada doesn't have to deal with such things. Canada doesn't exactly have a welcome mat (in English or French) on their front door for immigrants. Come live for awhile in one of the US Mexican border states and then have a conversation. Like I said earlier, Arizona made English the official language because they don't want to put money in paperwork instead of education.

It seems to me the only people that have a problem with English as the official language of the US are the ones that don't want to learn English and have hopes that the US will follow the Canadians and have dual official languages. But all the immigrants groups that have come before (Spanish speaking included) will be very offended. Immigrants initially landed on these shores to create a new

country and the immigrants that followed wanted to be a part of that country and part of that belonging is speaking English.

I want the US to have one official language. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn other languages. I've studied Russian and Spanish. My kids have studied Spanish and Italian. They have far excelled in Italian because their father is Italian and their grandfather speaks Italian. Many schools have few foreign language offerings, not like the 6 I had when I was in school. Most offer only Spanish and one maybe two others. Many American kids feel like they are being forced to learn Spanish because that is the ONLY foreign language taught at the middle/elementary school level. How about all the immigrants that would like their kids to learn the language of their ancestors? German, Polish, Nowegian, Italian, etc.

I'm of Irish descent and I know all about a language being killed. Gaelic is no longer. Ireland tried to revive it but it's use is limited. Advocates of an official language are not anti-diversity, we just want some unity to go along with that diversity and language goes a long way in doing that.

Liz you are 100% right, most Canadiens (and many on the East Coast as well), don't have a clue.

Spend a day in Los Angeles or on a border state.

The correlation to Canada or NY is not even close.

[LizDevil30]

Thanks to those who took the time to read my post and make a comment. For a minute there I thought I was speaking a foreign language.

[95Crash]

The problem is that the Spanish speaking immigrants are here in such large numbers and especially illegally (who are the ones least likely to learn English) there is a belief, real or perhaps perceived, that these people will want to be accomodated in their language. It has happened at such government offices such as MVC. I am in education and ESL teachers have said that many (not all) of their Spanish speaking students don't feel the need to learn English, unlike the immigrants who speak other languages. For some reason this newest wave of Spanish speaking immigrants feel that they should not have to learn English. It is this attitude that has spurred the official language debate. The US has always had multiple languages spoken but no other group has balked at learning English like the Spanish speakers have. I grew up with a large Cuban population and this never was an issue. But the county I grew up in now found it necessary to print the phone book in English and Spanish. Many Cuban/Americans were upset with this. ...

... immigrants groups that have come before (Spanish speaking included) will be very offended. Immigrants initially landed on these shores to create a new country and the immigrants that followed wanted to be a part of that country and part of that belonging is speaking English. ...

I want the US to have one official language. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn other languages. ...

... Advocates of an official language are not anti-diversity, we just want some unity to go along with that diversity and language goes a long way in doing that.

Excellent post, Liz! Believe it or not, I only just read it now. Most of it accurately reflects my view on the subject. I mainly quoted the points that I particularly agree with.

I know of many second- or third-generation Americans of Hispanic heritage that are practically insulted that they are being lumped together with other Latinos that either came here illegally, or balk at having to learn English, or both. They are proud of their heritage, yes. Many are still able to speak Spanish. But they identify as Americans first. And they understand that English is this country's main language.

And by officially declaring English our country's main language, it formally lets newcomers know that in order to make it in this country, it would be prudent to learn the main language.

It is not about trying to make immigrants feel welcome -- or unwelcome.

[squishyx]

But...

Every state already has English as its official language. It's like kicking your opponent in the groin after you already won.

Additionally, making English the official language, does nothing. If we ever got to a point where everyone spoke Spanish, they would just change the offical language to Spanish. If you think that having English as an "official" language will encourage more immigrants to learn the language, then you will be happy to know that it is already the official language of all 50 States and they should be well on their way to assimilation. By making an issue of this, it comes off as "my language is better then yours and now its official for the country". It's been fine for 200 years why stir the pot so you can feel more xenophobic.

Liz you are 100% right, most Canadiens (and many on the East Coast as well), don't have a clue.

Spend a day in Los Angeles or on a border state.

Maybe you don't have a clue. Or maybe just as someone on the East Coast I don't like being stero-typed, either way making English the Country's official language isn't going to help your cause because YOUR STATE already has it official. Do you think there are millions of Spanish speaking people secretly waiting for day the official language is declared Spanish?

Edited June 12, 2008 by squishyx

[LizDevil30]

But...

Every state already has English as its official language.

Is that a fact? According to this website 20 states have no official language law while 30 states do. NJ is one of the do not states. http://www.us-english.org/inc/

One more thing why is it a kick in the groin to immigrants that the US have an official language? Why should they care that the country they have chosen to live in has and official language? Now if laws were passed that stated that they could not speak their native language you would have an argument.

[squishyx]

Then take your fight up with states that don't have it as an official language, I'll look for my article that said every state has it official when i get home but maybe it just meant it's de facto, which it is, everyone already speaks English. Should there comes a day when the majority of the country speaks a different language, it doesn't matter what the official language is, it will be changed or probably totally ignored which is what we should be doing.

It's a kick to the groin because it isn't needed. It adds insult to injury, salt to wounds etc etc. I just said why, because it gives the impression that "your language sucks and English is better, why else would we put through this pointless legislation if we didn't feel threatened that one day English wouldn't be?"

[95Crash]

Should there come a day when the majority of the country speaks a different language, it doesn't matter what the official language is, it will be changed or probably totally ignored which is what we should be doing. ... why else would we put through this pointless legislation if we didn't feel threatened that one day English wouldn't be?"

[devilsfan26]

“Threatened” is a strong word -- but I suppose it does reflect the feelings of some.

But for many others, a more accurate description would be “Disrespected.” The fact that more and more people who would rather speak their own language and practice their native country’s customs seem to be coming here bothers a lot of people -- particularly those of us who have ancestors who came here however many years ago and who gladly assimilated into this country. It shows a lack of respect for a distinctly American culture, IMHO.

So now you want to go beyond making English the official language (which would accomplish absolutely nothing) to passing legislation that prevents immigrants from practicing their native country's customs? Should we close down all the Chinese, Italian, and Mexican food places in the country? Should we force Amish people to buy cars? Should we ban karate?

How does it show a lack of respect? Who cares how they behave amongst themselves? Wasn't this country founded on the idea that everyone's freedom ends where someone else's starts? How does their practicing of their culture's customs impede you?

And why does everybody assume that their own ancestors gladly assimilated?

Edited June 12, 2008 by devilsfan26

[squishyx]

“Threatened” is a strong word -- but I suppose it does reflect the feelings of some.

But for many others, a more accurate description would be “Disrespected.” The fact that more and more people who would rather speak their own language and practice their native country’s customs seem to be coming here bothers a lot of people -- particularly those of us who have ancestors who came here however many years ago and who gladly assimilated into this country. It shows a lack of respect for a distinctly American culture, IMHO.

Who is disrespected? The people who came here and learned English? If you don't know English life is going to be very difficult for you in this country unless you are in a small pocket of people who are just like you in which case the official language has no bearing on you anyway.

And America was built on other peoples native country's customs, languages, and religion. Shame on anyone who feels disrespected by it continuing to happen today because they would rather live in a small world with a small outlook. American culture IS everyone else's culture.

Edited June 12, 2008 by squishyx

[Devils731]

It's a kick to the groin because it isn't needed. It adds insult to injury, salt to wounds etc etc. I just said why, because it gives the impression that "your language sucks and English is better, why else would we put through this pointless legislation if we didn't feel threatened that one day English wouldn't be?"

If we're going to assign arbitrary thoughts to groups then I could say anyone who felt threatened from English being made the official federal language is giving the impression that "English sucks and I'm upset that I won't be able to make my current language the official language of the US"

[squishyx]

If we're going to assign arbitrary thoughts to groups then I could say anyone who felt threatened from English being made the official federal language is giving the impression that "English sucks and I'm upset that I won't be able to make my current language the official language of the US"

I would agree with you.

My apologies, I wasn't aware of the legislation that is trying to be passed to make Spanish the official language. They are just as xenophobic.

[Devils731]

I would agree with you.

My apologies, I wasn't aware of the legislation that is trying to be passed to make Spanish the official language. They are just as xenophobic.

I also think the country hates turkeys since it was passed over in favor of the bald eagle as national bird. Assigning national standards are obviously a major affront to everything else, correct?

[squishyx]

I also think the country hates turkeys since it was passed over in favor of the bald eagle as national bird. Assigning national standards are obviously a major affront to everything else, correct?

Are you a turkey?

meh, totally irrelevant because i didn't say the country hates Spanish people by making English the official language, which seems to be what you are trying to infer or make an analogy too. However if the united states had no official bird for 200 years and it was already widely accepted that an Eagle was de facto bird, and turkey's were capable of understanding this, I'm sure they would be a little taken back if not down right offended that the country went out of there way to declare the eagle as the offical bird.

Edited June 12, 2008 by squishyx

[Devils731]

Are you a turkey?

I am using my false outrage to be upset on behalf of the great insult the US provided it in selecting a different national bird. This doesn't affect the life of the Turkey at all but the kick to the groin it receives daily by not being the national bird is just another grievances heaped upon thanksgiving.

[squishyx]

I am using my false outrage to be upset on behalf of the great insult the US provided it in selecting a different national bird. This doesn't affect the life of the Turkey at all but the kick to the groin it receives daily by not being the national bird is just another grievances heaped upon thanksgiving.

Don't forget the shalacking they took in that southpark thanksgiving special episode.

[Devils731]

Are you a turkey?

meh, totally irrelevant because i didn't say the country hates Spanish people by making English the official language, which seems to be what you are trying to infer or make an analogy too.

Well you did call anyone who would support an English as the official language xenophobic which implies hate, fear, or, usually, both. I think arguing about the birds being upset is only slightly more ridiculous than calling anyone who supports and official recognition of a shared language xenophobic.

[95Crash]

So now you want to go beyond making English the official language (which would accomplish absolutely nothing) to passing legislation that prevents immigrants from practicing their native country's customs? Should we close down all the Chinese, Italian, and Mexican food places in the country? Should we force Amish people to buy cars? Should we ban karate?

Whoa, that's not what I was saying.

I merely said, in response to Squishy's post, that I think people feel disrespected

[squishyx]

Well you did call anyone who would support an English as the official language xenophobic which implies hate, fear, or, usually, both. I think arguing about the birds being upset is only slightly more ridiculous than calling anyone who supports and official recognition of a shared language xenophobic.

I support English being the language spoken by the majority of this country. I just don't need legislation to compensate my fear that one day the country might not speak English. If you aren't afraid English wont be taken over by something else, what is the point of making it official? it screams xenophobia imo, but more of the "fear" side of it then the "hatred".

Who needs to recognize English as the language of America? Will you really sleep better knowing that if and when Spanish over takes English as the predominant language, that they will have to spend a day in congress to change it?

You are right, your turkey example was rediculous, a better analogy would be passing legislation that the Sky is blue, clouds are ok, grass should green, oceans blue. Its frivolous at best and worst would invoke minorities to feel that a different language isn't tolerated even if that isn't the intent it has that vibe to it. Hell all i speak is English and i get that vibe from it!

[95Crash]

America was built on other peoples native country's customs, languages, and religion. Shame on anyone who feels disrespected by it continuing to happen today because they would rather live in a small world with a small outlook.

Yes, America was built on other peoples

[LizDevil30]

It's a kick to the groin because it isn't needed. It adds insult to injury, salt to wounds etc etc. I just said why, because it gives the impression that "your language sucks and English is better, why else would we put through this pointless legislation if we didn't feel threatened that one day English wouldn't be?"

That didn't answer my question. How is making English official saying any other language sucks? Your statement is ridiculous. There are tens of thousands of immigrants that come to this country. Millions more came before all speaking different languages. E pluribus unum and they all spoke English. Why can't you say that non-English speaking immigrants think speaking English sucks and hence they don't wish to speak it?

[Don]

So Latino's = turkeys?

If turkeys had feelings then perhaps the comparison stands up.

Let's try this on a small scale since this exact situation came up on another board. Two asians are working in an office of 20 people where they are the only two visible minorities. Given that the other 18 people are uni-lingual anglophones *all* discussions are held in English... even the discussions between these two people are held in English. They speak Mandarin outside work at a bar and such, but never anywhere near work. Not even the parking lot. One day they come into work and there is an e-mail circulated stating that "English is the only language allowed at Company X." In both meeting rooms there were big signs saying "English Only Please". But worst of all was when the head of the company called a conference that day and said that "Given the importance of maintaining unity within the company it was important that they only hire english speakers and those who prefer to speak another language would not be welcomed". He then looked directly at the two people in question!

Now, on the face of it... why should these two people be offended? All they did was state that English was the official language of the company and that speaking only english in the workplace was mandatory. BUT THAT WAS THE CASE ALREADY. There was nothing OVERTLY racist in the e-mail, sign and declaration, but these two people felt that it was. By declaring English as the official language even though all discussions were already all in English, given that they were the only ones in the office that could speak something other than English, they felt singled out and felt very unwelcome.

[Devils731]

I support English being the language spoken by the majority of this country. I just don't need legislation to compensate my fear that one day the country might not speak English. If you aren't afraid English wont be taken over by something else, what is the point of making it official? it screams xenophobia imo, but more of the "fear" side of it then the "hatred".

Who needs to recognize English as the language of America? Will you really sleep better knowing that if and when Spanish over takes English as the predominant language, that they will have to spend a day in congress to change it?

You are right, your turkey example was rediculous, a better analogy would be passing legislation that the Sky is blue, clouds are ok, grass should green, oceans blue. Its frivolous at best and worst would invoke minorities to feel that a different language isn't tolerated even if that isn't the intent it has that vibe to it. Hell all i speak is English and i get that vibe from it!

I don't fear another language being spoken in the country. As I said before I just think it's nice to recognize something that this country shares together. You say American doesn't have it's own identity and I disagree and this is one way to recognize part of the countries identity.

[LizDevil30]

Hey Don, when's Canada going to make Chinese its third official language?

Just because we officially make something official doesn't mean we are trying to rub anything in. Why is it so wrong for English speaking Americans to feel unwelcome in their country when immigrants bristle at the thought of English being the official official language?

The argument against English as official language is thin and argumentative just for argument's sake. The purpose to having an official language is uniformity in government business, nowhere else.

Edited June 12, 2008 by LizDevil30

[squishyx]

I don't fear another language being spoken in the country. As I said before I just think it's nice to recognize something that this country shares together. You say American doesn't have it's own identity and I disagree and this is one way to recognize part of the countries identity.

I said America is a combination of other cultures. For example, English... thats not ours...

[Devils731]

Don, what if that same situation exists but instead those 2 mandarin speaking employees feel free to speak in madarin to each other the majority of the time and if it is brought to their attention that it makes other employees(and where I work customers) uncomfortable then those 2 employees act upset at everyone else for being disrespectful to their heritage? I have worked at multiple jobs where that situation has occured and the 18 people, and customers, didn't matter, the much smaller minority group continued to speak their language. There was even one instance where another employee was disciplined for demanding to be told what they said when he heard his name mentioned during a talk and was refused. Now, wouldn't it have been nice for these people to have had a guideline to follow that formally communicated long standing practice?

I can't count the number of times at work I've struggled with my basic grasp of Italian and Spanish to communicate with customers who then are upset with me for not being able to help them because we can't communicate. I only wish I could help those people better but it is frustrating when someone looks down on me for not being able to speak a language that not many speak locally. So again it would be nice if the informal acceptance of english as the official language was made more formal so it might give a better understanding to people new to the country that they may not find their language spoken everywhere.