English as an Official Language

[Devilish34]

I don't fear another language being spoken in the country. As I said before I just think it's nice to recognize something that this country shares together. You say American doesn't have it's own identity and I disagree and this is one way to recognize part of the countries identity.

But you might offend someone

[squishyx]

That didn't answer my question. How is making English official saying any other language sucks? Your statement is ridiculous. There are tens of thousands of immigrants that come to this country. Millions more came before all speaking different languages. E pluribus unum and they all spoke English. Why can't you say that non-English speaking immigrants think speaking English sucks and hence they don't wish to speak it?

Because everyone already speaks English. you already have what you want. What you are looking for now is above and beyond what you want. You want to waive it in the face of everyone who steps off the boat 'This is my country, this is my language, see its official, now learn it". In a nutshell, thats how it looks.

[LizDevil30]

Because everyone already speaks English. you already have what you want. What you are looking for now is above and beyond what you want. You want to waive it in the face of everyone who steps off the boat 'This is my country, this is my language, see its official, now learn it". In a nutshell, thats how it looks.

Okay what do you want? A country where no one can speak to each other? Above and beyond? We have laws on the books everywhere for things that are blatantly obvious or at least should be. Countries and governments are all about "official" just in case someone doesn't accept it -- remember the adage, put it in writing.

[squishyx]

Yes, America was built on other peoples

[LizDevil30]

Good point, idk how we have communicated the last 200+ years.

The country and the world isn't the same as it was 200 years ago. People didn't have to communicate like they do today. We were an agrarian society up until the turn of the last century.

[squishyx]

Don, what if that same situation exists but instead those 2 mandarin speaking employees feel free to speak in madarin to each other the majority of the time and if it is brought to their attention that it makes other employees(and where I work customers) uncomfortable then those 2 employees act upset at everyone else for being disrespectful to their heritage? I have worked at multiple jobs where that situation has occured and the 18 people, and customers, didn't matter, the much smaller minority group continued to speak their language. There was even one instance where another employee was disciplined for demanding to be told what they said when he heard his name mentioned during a talk and was refused. Now, wouldn't it have been nice for these people to have had a guideline to follow that formally communicated long standing practice?

I can't count the number of times at work I've struggled with my basic grasp of Italian and Spanish to communicate with customers who then are upset with me for not being able to help them because we can't communicate. I only wish I could help those people better but it is frustrating when someone looks down on me for not being able to speak a language that not many speak locally. So again it would be nice if the informal acceptance of english as the official language was made more formal so it might give a better understanding to people new to the country that they may not find their language spoken everywhere.

Making English would have no effect on your example. I have felt alienated many times when people in front of me spoke a different language, but I have a feeling that would do so regardless of the official language.

[95Crash]

Good debate today.

I'll have to come back to it another day. ... I'm bushed!

[squishyx]

The country and the world isn't the same as it was 200 years ago. People didn't have to communicate like they do today. We were an agrarian society up until the turn of the last century.

Us Census says 92% of the Country speaks English natively or "very well". In fact the percent of people who went from "well" to "very well" went up almost 2% (of the whole population) so either people are lying a lot better or people are making more of an attempt now to learn English then before.

Edit: lol that got confusing.

Edited June 12, 2008 by squishyx

[Devils731]

Making English would have no effect on your example. I have felt alienated many times when people in front of me spoke a different language, but I have a feeling that would do so regardless of the official language.

Don was the one who wanted to use his office example, I was just turning it around to what the offices I have been in have worked like instead of the one he presented. He was using the office as analagous to the US so do the same with mine.

[Devilish34]

Don was the one who wanted to use his office example, I was just turning it around to what the offices I have been in have worked like instead of the one he presented. He was using the office as analagous to the US so do the same with mine.

I find it amusing that this keeps getting dragged into offending "minorities" it just shows how thin skinned we have become.

[RowdyFan42]

The purpose to having an official language is uniformity in government business, nowhere else.

Winner. All this crap about xenophobia and people being made to feel unwelcome is just extraneous fluff thrown on the fire with the intent of obfuscating the issue and ensuring that it never goes anywhere.

Let's dial it back a bit. The states that do have an official language, are they more or less racist or unfriendly toward immigration than the states without an official language? And if you recognize how absurd that question is, then you can see how absurd it is to use the same argument on a federal level.

And I was going to say something else but Devilish beat me to it:

I find it amusing that this keeps getting dragged into offending "minorities" it just shows how thin skinned we have become.

[Don]

I find it amusing that this keeps getting dragged into offending "minorities" it just shows how thin skinned we have become.

Well, if your goal *IS* to offend the minority, then by all means declare English as your official language.

As for those saying that people at work sometimes talk in Mandarin so that you don't understand what is going on I don't think applies.... unless you can provide an instance of where the federal U.S. government provided documents in Swahili and not in English.

I tell you, "putting in in writing" will change very, very little except that whatever party does it will find the Hispanic minority upset over it. While Devilish34 may be a-okay with pissing off a few million people, I'm sure politicians interested in staying elected may not be.

[LizDevil30]

Well, if your goal *IS* to offend the minority, then by all means declare English as your official language.

As for those saying that people at work sometimes talk in Mandarin so that you don't understand what is going on I don't think applies.... unless you can provide an instance of where the federal U.S. government provided documents in Swahili and not in English.

I tell you, "putting in in writing" will change very, very little except that whatever party does it will find the Hispanic minority upset over it. While Devilish34 may be a-okay with pissing off a few million people, I'm sure politicians interested in staying elected may not be.

What makes you so sure the "Hispanic" or "Latino" "minority" will be upset? I'm telling you that many Spanish speakers have no problem with it. In California the "Latino" community was upset with bilingual education and so it was done away with. You can't possibly believe that bilingual education ended because English speakers willed it away. No, you cannot be than naive.

[Don]

What makes you so sure the "Hispanic" or "Latino" "minority" will be upset? I'm telling you that many Spanish speakers have no problem with it. In California the "Latino" community was upset with bilingual education and so it was done away with. You can't possibly believe that bilingual education ended because English speakers willed it away. No, you cannot be than naive.

I dunno. Maybe because they say it will:

"The move to make English the official language will yield no discernible benefit," said witness John Trasvina, interim president of the California-based Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. "Discrimination will be made our official language. . . . It will promote divisiveness."

[Devilish34]

Well, if your goal *IS* to offend the minority, then by all means declare English as your official language.

As for those saying that people at work sometimes talk in Mandarin so that you don't understand what is going on I don't think applies.... unless you can provide an instance of where the federal U.S. government provided documents in Swahili and not in English.

I tell you, "putting in in writing" will change very, very little except that whatever party does it will find the Hispanic minority upset over it. While Devilish34 may be a-okay with pissing off a few million people, I'm sure politicians interested in staying elected may not be.

I don't see why I would piss them off. And I have asked some of the ones who work for me and

they say no it wouldn't.

[RowdyFan42]

Why is it that learning English was good enough for immigrants from Europe but not good enough for immigrants from Latin America? Is it because dark-skinned people in this country have figured out that they can get anything they want if they play the racism card?

[Don]

I don't see why I would piss them off. And I have asked some of the ones who work for me and they say no it wouldn't.

A ha! Well there we have it. Devilish34 has spoken with the people who work for him and they have spoken on behalf of the entire Hispanic community that absolutely none of them will be put off by this. Problem solved.

[Don]

Why is it that learning English was good enough for immigrants from Europe but not good enough for immigrants from Latin America? Is it because dark-skinned people in this country have figured out that they can get anything they want if they play the racism card?

Yes. Life is soooo easy for immigrants from Mexico.

It's not a matter of learning english. Most are. It's a matter of the federal government declaring something that is already the defacto standard with no purpose save to send a message that they are unwelcome here. Just like my office example from that other forum.... it changed nothing except to make others feel unwelcome.

[squishyx]

Why is it that learning English was good enough for immigrants from Europe but not good enough for immigrants from Latin America? Is it because dark-skinned people in this country have figured out that they can get anything they want if they play the racism card?

So your argument here is that making English the official language will make more people learn it? I don't think that is the case at all, not until, say we make it mandatory.

And thats the whole point of this, all you will get by making English the official language is a little more security when you goto sleep at night that when you wake up people wont be greeting you in Spanish when the reality is this wont change a damn thing. As for the minority community? I'm sure the most wont care, the majority already speak English but it's a slap in the face to a few who will feel singled out. Has nothing to do with how thin skinned you are, it's totally unnecessary.

[LizDevil30]

I dunno. Maybe because they say it will:

And I can quote people that say the opposite. This thread has turned into a boring tennis match.

[LizDevil30]

Yes. Life is soooo easy for immigrants from Mexico.

It's not a matter of learning english. Most are. It's a matter of the federal government declaring something that is already the defacto standard with no purpose save to send a message that they are unwelcome here. Just like my office example from that other forum.... it changed nothing except to make others feel unwelcome.

How would you know? There is zero Latino population in "go away and leave us alone" Canada.

Never did answer my question about when Canada was going to make Chinese its third official language. The Chinese are going to be very upset considering Canada saw fit to make French and English official. To not do the same for the Chinese is very divisive.

Edited June 12, 2008 by LizDevil30

[squishyx]

How would you know? There is zero Latino population in "go away and leave us alone" Canada.

Never did answer my question about when Canada was going to make Chinese its third official language. The Chinese are going to be very upset considering Canada saw fit to make French and English official. To not do the same for the Chinese is very divisive.

Which is entirely different because English and French have been official for some time now. Why would you make such a lousy comparison? This is about making something Official that isn't currently but is the defacto standard.

[Don]

And I can quote people that say the opposite. This thread has turned into a boring tennis match.

See. That's not how it works. I say that declaring an official language would be divisive and that there will be people upset at this. Others are saying that it is not divisive because nobody will be upset at this. I only have to find one person who will be upset by this to prove that it is "divisive". Now the only issue is if it is divisive enough to be worth it? I mean, if we're only pissing off 10 people, it would be worth the millions in savings you would have.... oh wait, what millions in savings?

My point is that elected officials don't see the worth in risking alienating a growing community of people for something that gives them very little gain.

As for when Mandarin will be a third official language, I'd say when they come somewhere remotely close to 10% of the population then it should be considered. But Squishy has the point right on. If they were 10% of the population when we declared French and English official languages, then damn straight that would have been a slap in the face.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

Yes. Life is soooo easy for immigrants from Mexico.

It's not a matter of learning english. Most are. It's a matter of the federal government declaring something that is already the defacto standard with no purpose save to send a message that they are unwelcome here. Just like my office example from that other forum.... it changed nothing except to make others feel unwelcome.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh, I've lived in Texas for nine years, and the bolded part proves to me you know nothing of the situation, most "immigrants" are NOT learning English, you know why? because they get massive assistance in Spanish, if you call any phone number for a sevice facility ( cable co etc) there is the automated response that says "for English press 1, Para Espanol oprima el numero dos"

THAT is why the Spanish speaking immigrants are NOT learning English because they are being catered to.

And if you believe that Mexican immigrants have it hard in the US, you've got some really bad information from someone, the trick is for them to get pregnant and have the child on US soil, besides that they get government assistance in buying a house, getting drivers licences, even SS cards, which is a gateway to permanent legal residence, all they while not learning a lick of English.

The statement that making English the official language of the US is "racist" or "xenophobic" is a fallacy.

The second, third and fourth generation Hispanic population in Texas absolutely detest their fellow Latinos coming over into the US and not integrating.

My wife is Hispanic, and when we get together for family re-unions etc, often the conversation will go to Spanish, we'll joke around, laugh and have a blast, all my wife's family speak fluent English.

The workplace is a different kettle of fish, there are some jobs that will not hire you because you can't speak Spanish, and the job is not Spanish Speaking necessary.

Tell me again they are learning English

Besides, when in Rome..............................

[LizDevil30]

NZT, don't waste your breath. Wanting English to be the official language is racist. Just no getting around it. Spanish speaking people are superior and above such divisive arguments. They don't learn English well just because, and besides why should they? No reason, it's not like other immigrant groups past and present have learned English. Americans must get over themselves and learn Spanish. As for Don, he knows everything about life in the US. Canada has far more permissive immigration policies (how many points do you have to enter?) and puts out the welcome mat for immigrants.