Healthcare Passed

[squishyx]

If this was such a GREAT bill, why did it take 250 Dums just to get 219 votes with weeks and weeks of arm twisting and lies?

It didn't, the Dem's used exactly how many votes they needed and spared others. House leadership figured out exactly how many they needed to pull in to vote, and released the others to vote on their own accord. This is the best outcome possible for the democratic party as a whole. Use just enough to get the job done and then have some democrats in the toughest more conservative districts able to vote no and now have plausible deniability come election season to say "i stood against the hc bill" and get re-elected.

There is always arm twisting, and there is always lies and it's been that way I suspect since the very first political parties were formed. You have a short memory, this is the exact same stuff the republicans did when they passed medicare part D.

I never stated it as fact:

Fine, but you did make the argument that "reducing the deficit" shouldn't be a legitimate issue on that list because you didn't think it actually would.

[Devils731]

Fine, but you did make the argument that "reducing the deficit" shouldn't be a legitimate issue on that list because you didn't think it actually would.

I think it's likely it doesn't, for the three reasons listed. I fairly stated why, choose to agree or not but don't act like I was being obscure or unfair with what I was saying.

[squishyx]

I think it's likely it doesn't, for the three reasons listed. I fairly stated why, choose to agree or not but don't act like I was being obscure or unfair with what I was saying.

You are making your argument on a hypothetical. That's all that I am saying, under normal circumstances I would probably agree with you that they would pass the doc fix like they do every year, but things have changed now and there it's a different atmosphere.

Consider that Obama might say that they will pass the doc fix as long as they find a way to pay for it in some other area, that would still keep the deficit projects accurate. Why is that hypothetical not just as sound as yours?

[Devils731]

You are making your argument on a hypothetical. That's all that I am saying, under normal circumstances I would probably agree with you that they would pass the doc fix like they do every year, but things have changed now and there it's a different atmosphere.

Consider that Obama might say that they will pass the doc fix as long as they find a way to pay for it in some other area, that would still keep the deficit projects accurate. Why is that hypothetical not just as sound as yours?

Because the gov't always could have done that and hasn't.

Also, they had this cost in prior bills as a given but it took it out of later bills because they knew it was a big cost, so taking it off balance sheet made things more palatable without actually having to do away with things.

Doctors already do Medicare work that costs more to do than they get back in revenue. So not passing the "fix" isn't a viable option and nobody has mentioned funding the "fix" by other cost cutting so I see no reason to believe they're planning to do that. Other changes aren't affecting what Doctors make from Medicare, so those will be in line with history.

My hypothetical has been happening over and over again, yours hasn't happened, that's why mine is more likely. Heck, my hypothetical is really a continuation of past history, yours is something you made up that there is no evidence for.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Devils731

[squishyx]

Because the gov't always could have done that and hasn't.

Also, they had this cost in prior bills as a given but it took it out of later bills because they knew it was a big cost, so taking it off balance sheet made things more palatable without actually having to do away with things.

Doctors already do Medicare work that costs more to do than they get back in revenue. So not passing the "fix" isn't a viable option and nobody has mentioned funding the "fix" by other cost cutting so I see no reason to believe they're planning to do that. Other changes aren't affecting what Doctors make from Medicare, so those will be in line with history.

That's why they have continued to pass it...

My hypothetical has been happening over and over again, yours hasn't happened, that's why mine is more likely. Heck, my hypothetical is really a continuation of past history, yours is something you made up that there is no evidence for.

...but now it's different.

The CBO projects are right (as in their math, not necessarily their predictive powers), if they end up passing the doc fix with no offsetting cost maneuvers then you can have your cake and eat it too, until then I don't see any reason to pretend that it's wrong.

edit: That list had some 30 something issues on it, and you cherry picked 2, 1 of which is based on your assumption that something else will happen. What about the long term CBO projects that say we will save a trillion dollars over the following decade?

Edited March 23, 2010 by squishyx

[El Diablo]

Save yourself the trouble and use pollster.com, they use an aggregate on many poll sources on the subject. And yes this paticular bill is unpopular, although to say people don't want it is absurd, millions of americans, 40% do want this. But I am not advocating that we should legislate by what the polls say, for example you have to factor in that 10-15% of the people who don't want this bill want more reforms, more government intervention.

you took umbrage on it being unpopular == I only showed you it was. people might have wanted it .. but more didnt, Im only citing the figures from the polls.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

Isn't forcing people to buy health insurance illegal ? (unconstitutional) Punishable with a fine.

How many millions of people who didn't have health care before this bill was passed still won't get health care now? Do you think that a good number of people didn't buy health care (prior to the bill) because they didn't want it anyway?

Similar to car insurance, I fvcking HATE paying it because I never claim on it. Some people don't buy health insurance, not because they can't afford it, becasue they don't want it because they very rarely go to the doctor. Similar to car insurance, it's a fvcking waste of hard earned money, why purchase something you never use ?

[squishyx]

you took umbrage on it being unpopular == I only showed you it was. people might have wanted it .. but more didnt, Im only citing the figures from the polls.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's unpopular in the polls.

But I do see a lot of conservatives saying "people don't want this". That's not an accurate statement, maybe a lot of people don't, maybe even a majority of the country don't, but you can't just hand waive over the 40% of people who do, and I think it's relevant to note that of the people who don't support this bill don't support it because it doesn't go far enough.

That's a pretty important number because if it ever came to repelling it, (and it couldn't until 2012 at the earliest) you shouldn't count on having those percentages reversed.

[squishyx]

Isn't forcing people to buy health insurance illegal ? (unconstitutional) Punishable with a fine.

We'll find out. This is likely to be challenged and meander it's way to the supreme court, but history is on the federal governments side on this one.

How many millions of people who didn't have health care before this bill was passed still won't get health care now? Do you think that a good number of people didn't buy health care (prior to the bill) because they didn't want it anyway?

Similar to car insurance, I fvcking HATE paying it because I never claim on it. Some people don't buy health insurance, not because they can't afford it, becasue they don't want it because they very rarely go to the doctor. Similar to car insurance, it's a fvcking waste of hard earned money, why purchase something you never use ?

I think that's a valid point, as long as you are someone who would be willing to sign a waiver that said "do not help in case of emergency" (and to be honest you seem like someone who might).

[Neutral Zone Trap]

We'll find out. This is likely to be challenged and meander it's way to the supreme court, but history is on the federal governments side on this one.

I think that's a valid point, as long as you are someone who would be willing to sign a waiver that said "do not help in case of emergency" (and to be honest you seem like someone who might).

Are you ok with your government taking away your right to choose ? You know, history shows us many many times what happens to governments who impinge on it's own people.

Why should I be forced to purchase something I don't use ? The government already bullies me by forcing me to buy car insurance AND (because I'm a homeowner) I have to pay school tax, but I don't have any children. That's wrong !!!

[squishyx]

Are you ok with your government taking away your right to choose ? You know, history shows us many many times what happens to governments who impinge on it's own people.

Yea, I'm ok with this one. To me, these are a lot of common sense reforms, a lot of the provisions just tell insurance companies they have to behave like insurance companies.

[quote name='Neutral Zone Trap' date='23 March 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1269380358' post='863236'

Why should I be forced to purchase something I don't use ? The government already bullies me by forcing me to buy car insurance AND (because I'm a homeowner) I have to pay school tax, but I don't have any children. That's wrong !!!

[PeteyNice]

No one is being "forced" to buy health insurance. If you don't want to buy it then pay the fine. It is structured as a tax so I can't see any challenge being upheld. If I buy an energy star compliant refrigerator I get a tax break that I don't get if I buy a non-energy star compliant one. Does that mean the Government is forcing me to buy an energy star compliant one?

[Neutral Zone Trap]

Yea, I'm ok with this one. To me, these are a lot of common sense reforms, a lot of the provisions just tell insurance companies they have to behave like insurance companies.

You might be ok with this one, but there are a lot who are not.

Common sense is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't agree with mandatory car insurance. Paying for something that "might happen" is as stupid as buying a plane ticket because I "might fly" to Vegas (but I end up not going anyway)

I don't agree with having to pay for schools for someone else's children when I don't have any. If I had children I would have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.

I don't agree with mandatory health insurance. Paying for something that "might happen" is as stupid as booking a hotel room in Baghdad, but never end up going (and highly unlikely to)

There isn't a person on this planet let alone government that knows what's best for me or my interests, there's only one person qualified for that, and he's me.

I vehemtly dislike being dictated to, and there are many who agree with me.

It breaks my heart the way things are going in this country.

[Daniel]

This is not a push poll.

If you read the questions the poll asked people if they were more likely to support the bill if it contained individual elements or less likely. The shortened naming convention Nate Silver used here was purely for organizational purposes. Most of the things on this list are concrete resolutions, not speculation. You can argue that it won't reduce the deficit, but you can't argue about closing the donut hole, or banning he practice of dropping people or refusing to cover those with pre-existing conditions, or extending how long people children can be listed under their parents insurance etc etc.

I never said that all elements resembled a push poll, but the fact remains that the overwhelming concern that most opponent's have about the bill is that it will be unaffordable in the long run. There are some cost cutting measures, but you cannot have a poll that assumes it will reduce the deficit, when that cannot be proven at this stage of the game.

The CBO estimates are loaded with caveats and fudges long term costs.

Frankly though, I could care less about what the polls say, especially for a bill that many of the people who actually voted for it don't understand. A good chunk of people are creationists, 9/11 truthers, JFK assassination conspiracy theorists, etc. If an individual wants to argue this or that thing, just argue it on the merits. Leave reciting polls to politicians and party funded talking heads.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Not a person who has walked the halls of conference seems to have been able to figure that out.

[Daniel]

Isn't forcing people to buy health insurance illegal ? (unconstitutional) Punishable with a fine.

Those lawsuits are being filed now. Long story short, they ultimately won't be successful.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

No one is being "forced" to buy health insurance. If you don't want to buy it then pay the fine. It is structured as a tax so I can't see any challenge being upheld. If I buy an energy star compliant refrigerator I get a tax break that I don't get if I buy a non-energy star compliant one. Does that mean the Government is forcing me to buy an energy star compliant one?

Yes they are, if you don't you get fined that's punishment for failing to comply.

What's wrong with me not buying health insurance (because I choose not to) and not get fined for it ?

And yes, you are being forced to buy the energy efficient (much less powerfull-kinda like a hybrid car) fridge, because the government will confiscate the money you could get by failing to buy the "green" one.

It's all about government controling the people, what happened to freedom ?

[David Puddy]

If you don't "force" people to buy health insurance, the pre-existing conditions mandate won't work because people can go without insurance, then get insurance if they wind up getting sick.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

Those lawsuits are being filed now. Long story short, they ultimately won't be successful.

So when the government wins that case, what will be next ? Will people get incarcerated for not paying the fines for not buying health insurance ?

What's the next "law" the government will foist upon us ? Are we going to have to give up our houses to "underprivileged people"

If you don't "force" people to buy health insurance, the pre-existing conditions mandate won't work because people can go without insurance, then get insurance if they wind up getting sick.

Now that sounds like a great idea.

[PeteyNice]

Yes they are, if you don't you get fined that's punishment for failing to comply.

What's wrong with me not buying health insurance (because I choose not to) and not get fined for it ?

And yes, you are being forced to buy the energy efficient (much less powerfull-kinda like a hybrid car) fridge, because the government will confiscate the money you could get by failing to buy the "green" one.

It's all about government controling the people, what happened to freedom ?

No, I am not being "forced" to buy the energy star fridge. The non-energy star ones are available. As the cliche goes, "Freedom isn't free". You are free to choose to not carry health insurance, but you will pay to make that choice.

So when the government wins that case, what will be next ? Will people get incarcerated for not paying the fines for not buying health insurance ?

It is a tax. So if you don't pay it you would face the same consequences that you face for not paying your taxes now.

[squishyx]

So when the government wins that case, what will be next ? Will people get incarcerated for not paying the fines for not buying health insurance ?

What's the next "law" the government will foist upon us ? Are we going to have to give up our houses to "underprivileged people"

Yes they will, once caught. If you don't follow the law you eventually go to jail. You can't just decide to not pay your taxes, even if disagree with the tax. If that were the case most people would never pay their taxes and we wouldn't have any government services. That may sound like a utopia to you, but keep in mind that would mean no teachers, police officers, paid fire fighters, military etc.

[squishyx]

I never said that all elements resembled a push poll, but the fact remains that the overwhelming concern that most opponent's have about the bill is that it will be unaffordable in the long run. There are some cost cutting measures, but you cannot have a poll that assumes it will reduce the deficit, when that cannot be proven at this stage of the game.

The CBO estimates are loaded with caveats and fudges long term costs.

If you are going to say that the deficits argument should be out the window because we can't say for 100% sure what the costs will be, then you should nix the unpopular stuff too like the total cost because thats likely to change as well.

I still don't see how any of that makes it a push poll.

Frankly though, I could care less about what the polls say, especially for a bill that many of the people who actually voted for it don't understand. A good chunk of people are creationists, 9/11 truthers, JFK assassination conspiracy theorists, etc. If an individual wants to argue this or that thing, just argue it on the merits. Leave reciting polls to politicians and party funded talking heads.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Not a person who has walked the halls of conference seems to have been able to figure that out.

Fine with me, I never made any such argument.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

No, I am not being "forced" to buy the energy star fridge. The non-energy star ones are available. As the cliche goes, "Freedom isn't free". You are free to choose to not carry health insurance, but you will pay to make that choice.

It is a tax. So if you don't pay it you would face the same consequences that you face for not paying your taxes now.

Why should I pay to make that choice ? Are you telling me that regardless of the choices I make (or don't make) I'm going to have to pay for it ?

So the fine is a tax. ( in other words, we didn't raise taxes {yet} so we invented one to pay for it)

Let's say I comply to all the government rules and regulations. Say, over a lifespan someone pays $100,000 on health insurance (I used a simple figure) but that person never sees a doctor in his life, never goes to any medical institution whatsoever, and never gets medication?

Why has he bought something he never used ? He has wasted $100,000 on nothing.

I think that is unfair, same with car insurance.

[Neutral Zone Trap]

Yes they will, once caught. If you don't follow the law you eventually go to jail. You can't just decide to not pay your taxes, even if disagree with the tax. If that were the case most people would never pay their taxes and we wouldn't have any government services. That may sound like a utopia to you, but keep in mind that would mean no teachers, police officers, paid fire fighters, military etc.

That's just it, government "services" are sh!t

Why doesent the money garnered from taxes go to these "services' ? If they did, the US would have the best services on the planet.

Utopia to me is to pay as you go. When I want/need something, I pay for it. When I don't want/need something I DON'T pay for it.

Nowhere in the constitution is it written that the people have to pay income tax.

[PeteyNice]

Why should I pay to make that choice ? Are you telling me that regardless of the choices I make (or don't make) I'm going to have to pay for it ?

So the fine is a tax. ( in other words, we didn't raise taxes {yet} so we invented one to pay for it)

Let's say I comply to all the government rules and regulations. Say, over a lifespan someone pays $100,000 on health insurance (I used a simple figure) but that person never sees a doctor in his life, never goes to any medical institution whatsoever, and never gets medication?

Why has he bought something he never used ? He has wasted $100,000 on nothing.

I think that is unfair, same with car insurance.

If you don't want to pay the fine then buy health insurance. If I don't want to pay the tax on beer I don't buy beer. If I don't want the energy star tax credit I don't buy the energy star fridge.

It's not unfair. It's the same reason you pay for fire protection even though your home will likely never burn down. If you think that is "useless" then there is no reason to continue this discussion.

That's just it, government "services" are sh!t

The Post Office is awesome. I can mail a letter in Atlanta today and in two days (sometimes one day) it will be at my parents house in NJ. For 44 cents! That is a great deal.

I can also drive from Atlanta to NJ on well maintained roads the whole way!

Not to mention that ATC that make sure my plane to Newark doesn't crash into a plane from Chicago.

I can also visit some of the most beautiful places in the world because they are protected by the Government.

Not to mention NPR, Global Entry, NOAA and lots of other very valuable services the federal government provides.

Edited March 23, 2010 by PeteyNice

[squishyx]

Nowhere in the constitution is it written that the people have to pay income tax.

Yes it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution