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[nmigliore]

Mo obviously but Trevor Hoffman no dice. He's choked in every big moment he's been in whether it be the 98 World Series or even the All star game he choked away for the NL a couple of years ago. A closer's supposed to be a power pitcher and I'm not paying big money for somebody who can't throw 90 mph and his best pitch is a changeup. I've always thought he was overrated and nobody calls him out just because he played in SD and now Milwaukee and nobody cares

I think you are under-valuing how good a changeup can be, especially given the success Hoffman's has had with it in his career (and/or other pitchers).

But as for your argument on Hoffman - eh, alot of great closers blow big saves, nobody is perfect. And in that 1998 season Hoffman's numbers were incredible - 53/54 saves, 1.48 ERA, .165 batting average against, 9.8 K/9 - easily his best year of his career and probably the best closer in baseball that year; just because he blew a big save in the World Series that year doesn't make him worth sh!t because he was "un-clutch". I mean, you could say the same thing for Mariano Rivera that 'he blew a big save in the World Series' in 2001 vs Arizona, but that doesn't take away from his credentials (yes I know Rivera's overall career playoff numbers are great, but its not like Hoffman went to the playoffs as much as Rivera has; hes only pitched 13 post-season innings which is nothing compared to Rivera's 117.. whose to say Hoffman wouldn't be just as dominant if he had as many chances to pitch in the post-season?).

edit: I should have also added, according to Baseball-Reference, Rivera and Hoffman are dead even in career save percentage at 89%.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

it's probably just my perception of Hoffman just because he's been in obscurity most of his career and hasn't had many big spots and that's where I remember him from. Rivera's choked away 97 and 01 but he had a lot more opportunities than Hoffman. I still think Hoffman's a hall of famer, but just not one of the elite closers in a long time. Probably was in the late 90's but not since then. and any argument to say he's in Mo's class is laughable. Hoffman's never close to good as Rivera was in '96. That was the best reliever of all time and it has never been close

edit: add in '96 NLDS and '07 against Colorado to choke resume. Pretty much every time he's choked

Edited September 27, 2009 by DH26

[nmigliore]

and any argument to say he's in Mo's class is laughable.

Im not arguing that at all; but to say he wasn't worth spending money, but Rivera was, isn't fair.

Hoffman's never close to good as Rivera was in '96. That was the best reliever of all time and it has never been close

Never close?

Rivera's 1996: (107.2 IP) 2.09 ERA, 6.1 H/9, 0.1 HR/9, 2.8 BB/9, 10.9 K/9, 3.82 K/BB .. average leverage index - 1.512

Hoffman's 1998: (73 IP) 1.48 ERA, 5.1 H/9, 0.2 HR/9, 2.6 BB/9, 10.6 K/9, 4.10 K/BB .. average leverage index - 2.077 (he was in higher pressure situations compared to Rivera's 1996 season)

I mean yeah I guess Rivera gets the edge because of the 30 or so more innings, but come on.. to say its not close is not fair either. Hoffman had an insane year in 1998. Not to mention he was 53 out 54 (yes, 53 out of 54) in save chances! Thats incredible.

and Holliday was OUT at the plate in 2007

Edited September 27, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

Im not arguing that at all; but to say he wasn't worth spending money, but Rivera was, isn't fair.

Never close?

Rivera's 1996: (107.2 IP) 2.09 ERA, 6.1 H/9, 0.1 HR/9, 2.8 BB/9, 10.9 K/9, 3.82 K/BB .. average leverage index - 1.512

Hoffman's 1998: (73 IP) 1.48 ERA, 5.1 H/9, 0.2 HR/9, 2.6 BB/9, 10.6 K/9, 4.10 K/BB .. average leverage index - 2.077 (he was in higher pressure situations compared to Rivera's 1996 season)

I mean yeah I guess Rivera gets the edge because of the 30 or so more innings, but come on.. to say its not close is not fair either. Hoffman had an insane year in 1998. Not to mention he was 53 out 54 (yes, 53 out of 54) in save chances! Thats incredible.

and Holliday was OUT at the plate in 2007

Ok fine you win on Holliday he never did touch the plate so I'll give Hoffman the pass.

But that was by far the best season of Rivera. The game was over after the 6th inning. He's had better numbers like ERA in other years, but anyone who saw '96 will tell you that he was the most important player on the team and has never been better. Maybe it's closer than I remembered it, but Mo was untouchable that year

[NJDevs4978]

Ok fine you win on Holliday he never did touch the plate so I'll give Hoffman the pass

Why, Hoffman still blew a two-run lead anyway. He really does suck in clutch situations, I know he hasn't had that many opportunities but still. You can even count the All-Star game a few years back if you want cause that was for home-field after all and I think the Padres did make the playoffs that year or at least came close

And crickets and tumbleweeds abound as Pedro has to leave a start early and misses another turn. It actually took 40+ innings for him to get dinged up though, that's good for him

Edited September 27, 2009 by Hasan4978

[nmigliore]

Why, Hoffman still blew a two-run lead anyway. He really does suck in clutch situations, I know he hasn't had that many opportunities but still. You can even count the All-Star game a few years back if you want cause that was for home-field after all and I think the Padres did make the playoffs that year or at least came close

All-Star games? Come onnnnn, thats really reaching. Billy Wagner sucked his whole Met career in 'clutch' spots but that doesn't make him a worthless closer. Some of the years Hoffman had were as good as its going to get from a reliever. Saving 53/54 games in the regular season in 1998 would be clutch enough for me. And again his post-season stuff is too small of a sample size to even bother analyzing. Yes he has blown a few big saves, but I just don't think that takes away from any of his great credentials as a closer. He has been remarkably consistent through his career, and thats what you should look for in relievers.

And crickets and tumbleweeds abound as Pedro has to leave a start early and misses another turn. It actually took 40+ innings for him to get dinged up though, that's good for him

shhhhhh.. you shouldn't have said this.. get ready for some italics, a few non-NJDevs board smileys, and small-size stat samples.

edit: I noticed the Phillies used Ryan Madson for a 4-out save today. I would expect them to keep riding him as the closer, he is the best reliever they have in that bullpen.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nmigliore

[NJDevs4978]

All-Star games? Come onnnnn, thats really reaching. Billy Wagner sucked his whole Met career in 'clutch' spots but that doesn't make him a worthless closer.

No but it doesn't make you a HOF'er either. If you're going to the HOF as a one-inning closer you darn well better be pretty impeccable in big situations.

And Wagner had even more shots at it than Hoffman and was actually worse in playoffs (and the one year he blew two big games against the Astros down the stretch that cost the Phillies a playoff berth).

[nmigliore]

If you're going to the HOF as a one-inning closer you darn well better be pretty impeccable in big situations.

But he was. His career save percentage in the regular season is identical to Rivera's (89%), and thats over a course of 17 seasons. What other big situations can you ask for? Postseason? Hes gone to the postseason 4 times (and racked up a small total of 13 innings) and had that 1 blown save in the World Series in '98; so the perception of him is that hes 'un-clutch'. That doesn't sound very fair to me. If Rivera went to the post-season as much times as Hoffman did, and blew a World Series game (which hes done) I bet people would call him 'un-clutch' too.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

we just call him unclutch because pretty much every time he's been in a big spot, he's failed. Even an all star game is too big for him. He may have folded like a house of cards if he'd played somewhere like NY or Boston with constant pressure but in SD, nobody cared outside of the die hard fans, so he could just go as he wished.

And Rivera pitched over 14 innings just in '96 in the playoffs and only allowed one run. Rivera just in his first year as a young player against Hoffman in his playoff career which is pretty much just '98 isn't comparable since he gave up 3 runs in half the innings including the WS blown save. In 96 NLDS: 10.80 ERA. He didn't allow a run in the 2005/06 NLDS but he only pitched 2 innings combined and had one save opportunity. Rivera's only blow 3 big games that I remember:2001, 97, and 2004. Hoffman's blown more with not nearly as many innings

[nmigliore]

we just call him unclutch because pretty much every time he's been in a big spot, he's failed. Even an all star game is too big for him. He may have folded like a house of cards if he'd played somewhere like NY or Boston with constant pressure but in SD, nobody cared outside of the die hard fans, so he could just go as he wished.

And Rivera pitched over 14 innings just in '96 in the playoffs and only allowed one run. Rivera just in his first year as a young player against Hoffman in his playoff career which is pretty much just '98 isn't comparable since he gave up 3 runs in half the innings including the WS blown save. In 96 NLDS: 10.80 ERA. He didn't allow a run in the 2005/06 NLDS but he only pitched 2 innings combined and had one save opportunity. Rivera's only blow 3 big games that I remember:2001, 97, and 2004. Hoffman's blown more with not nearly as many innings

First off - This whole discussion has changed into a Rivera vs Hoffman battle. This is not what I meant at all in my original post; I know Rivera IS better. I simply meant Hoffman would be worth big money due to his regular season consistency (the dude still has a career ERA under 3 in 17 seasons and an 89% save percentage; just those 2 career stats are excellent for a closer). Teams would be crazy to say "well hey, this guy had a rough postseason in '96 and '98, lets just ignore his regular season numbers and find a different closer who has an ERA under 1.00 in the postseason". I also can't understand why you would call Hoffman overrated; what are you judging by? His 13 playoff innings and his other "clutch" innings? Come on, the 17 years of consistency easily outweighs his performance in the small amount of big spots hes been in.

And regarding his numbers in these big spots you list, I counted only 2 you actually listed - 96 NLDS, 98 WS (I would add a 3rd with that Rockies tiebreaker game in 2007). But really.. so what? 3 rough outings = hes awful in a big spot? Its just too small of a sample for me to judge. If he had a total of like, 50 innings in his playoff career and had an ERA in the high 4's or 5's, then OK I can understand. In fact if he had more postseason innings I would be willing to bet his playoff numbers would be pretty damn good, and I base that opinion off of his success hes had in the regular season which is obviously a much bigger sample size compared to an NLDS and a WS.

Also lets not kid ourselves - closers who are very consistent over a 15+ year period don't just grow on trees. Rivera and Hoffman are 2 of them. Maybe Hoffman isn't as good as Rivera because of where he pitched and because of how remarkable Rivera has been in the playoffs; but they were/still are money closers. There are many other closers getting paid big money who don't even touch the consistency of Hoffman's career (89% save percentage in 17 seasons and a 2.73 ERA) - Francisco Cordero (82%, 3.18 ERA in 10 seasons), Brad Lidge (84%, 3.57 ERA in 8 seasons), Brian Fuentes (84%, 3.50 ERA in 9 seasons) just to name a few.

Edited September 28, 2009 by nmigliore

[devilsrule33]

I know I've talked about the Jays a lot this year, but I can't say enough about Adam Lind. I was furious when he was robbed of an All-Star spot, and he has shown that the first half was no fluke. 3 more homers tonight against the Sox. Papelbon decided to plunk him in his last at bat so he never got a shot at the 4th. Total bush league if you ask me.

Anyway, Here is where Lind ranks in the AL

2B: 5th

HR: 5th

RBI: 3rd

SLG: 4th

OPS: 5th

XBH: 2nd

By the way...I was talking about the difference before about the teams Halladay and Greinke faced all year. Well someone on a Jays blog posted them along with the other teams in the league. Here is the post updated with Halladay's start against Seattle and Greinke's start against Boston.

The four highest scoring teams in the AL are the Yankees, Angels, Red Sox & Rays. Here

[nmigliore]

Just something to consider. I still think Greinke has been just incredible aginst whatever team he pitches. Sadly I have only got to see him pitch against the Jays this year, where he had bad starts and one which I believe was the worst of the year for him. But every pitching line does look ridiculous. 2.06 ERA. What I find hilarious is a guy like Greinke can have 8 losses with that ERA and a pitcher like Tallet on Toronto can have 9 losses with a 5.32 ERA. Just shows how awful the Royals hitting really is. Same with the Jays hitting when Halladay pitches. Just 22 runs scored in his 10 losses.

Again, as much as it seems there is big a disparity in the lineups they face, there really isn't (its all right here) .

Halladay's Opp_Qual_OPS: .775 (which does rank 1st in baseball so you are right he is facing the toughest lineups)

Greinke's Opp_Qual_OPS: .755 (ranks 7th in baseball and 5th in the AL)

Past Cy Young winners have actually faced easier.. for instance:

2008 NL Cy Young Winner - Tim Linececum - Opp_Qual_OPS: .730

2008 AL Cy Young Winner - Cliff Lee - Opp_Qual_OPS: .735

2007 NL Cy Young Winner - Jake Peavy - Opp_Qual_OPS: .742

2007 AL Cy Young Winner - CC Sabathia - Opp_Qual_OPS: .738

Edited September 30, 2009 by nmigliore

[devilsrule33]

Again, as much as it seems there is big a disparity in the lineups they face, there really isn't (its all right here) .

Halladay's Opp_Qual_OPS: .775 (which does rank 1st in baseball so you are right he is facing the toughest lineups)

Greinke's Opp_Qual_OPS: .755 (ranks 7th in baseball and 5th in the AL)

Past Cy Young winners have actually faced easier.. for instance:

2008 NL Cy Young Winner - Tim Linececum - Opp_Qual_OPS: .730

2008 AL Cy Young Winner - Cliff Lee - Opp_Qual_OPS: .735

2007 NL Cy Young Winner - Jake Peavy - Opp_Qual_OPS: .742

2007 AL Cy Young Winner - CC Sabathia - Opp_Qual_OPS: .738

Interesting...perhaps numbers doesn't really show the disparity. The Sox and Yankees are so good at grinding at bats. It seems eveyr batter is so dangerous. They are tough outs. Can you send me the link where you find that stuff.

[nmigliore]

Interesting...perhaps numbers doesn't really show the disparity. The Sox and Yankees are so good at grinding at bats. It seems eveyr batter is so dangerous. They are tough outs. Can you send me the link where you find that stuff.

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=520570

you can sort it via Opp_Qual_Avg, or Opp_Qual_OBP, or Opp_Qual_SLG, or Opp_Qual_OPS

edit: if you doubt its 'legit' or something then you could even search it on google (type in: Opp_Qual_OPS) and there is [ironically] a link to a blue jays forum or something where a poster is comparing the quality of batters faced between cliff lee and roy halladay from last year using that stat

Edited September 30, 2009 by nmigliore

[devilsrule33]

Well the Red Sox are in, but they haven't looked good down the stretch. I wonder if the Angels can finally get over the hump against the Sox. I think they have won only one game in the last 3 playoff series against the Sox. This might be the year.

[devilsrule33]

Again, as much as it seems there is big a disparity in the lineups they face, there really isn't (its all right here) .

Halladay's Opp_Qual_OPS: .775 (which does rank 1st in baseball so you are right he is facing the toughest lineups)

Greinke's Opp_Qual_OPS: .755 (ranks 7th in baseball and 5th in the AL)

Past Cy Young winners have actually faced easier.. for instance:

2008 NL Cy Young Winner - Tim Linececum - Opp_Qual_OPS: .730

2008 AL Cy Young Winner - Cliff Lee - Opp_Qual_OPS: .735

2007 NL Cy Young Winner - Jake Peavy - Opp_Qual_OPS: .742

2007 AL Cy Young Winner - CC Sabathia - Opp_Qual_OPS: .738

Hey nmigliore, I don't think you were actually sorting the Opp OPS. Of pitchers throwing at least 150 innings, Greinke ranks 23rd in the league and Halladay ranks 3rd right behind Guthrie and Garza. I was thinking there was no way Greinke could rank 5th since so many AL East pitchers had to be in the top 10. Seems like all the top guys are in the AL East. CC, a guy who has a real shot at the Cy Young, is ranked 30th in the MLB with a .750.

[nmigliore]

Hey nmigliore, I don't think you were actually sorting the Opp OPS. Of pitchers throwing at least 150 innings, Greinke ranks 23rd in the league and Halladay ranks 3rd right behind Guthrie and Garza. I was thinking there was no way Greinke could rank 5th since so many AL East pitchers had to be in the top 10. Seems like all the top guys are in the AL East. CC, a guy who has a real shot at the Cy Young, is ranked 30th in the MLB with a .750.

Yeah your right, I had the innings all messed up so the rankings I had in parentheses next to their names was wrong. But even still, the Opp_OPS obviously stays the same and so that difference between the two isn't really big even though its a 20 rank difference. A noticeable gap would be something like Halladay vs Dan Haren's Opp_OPS (.727). Also don't forget Greinke's quality of batters faced is still better than the most recent Cy Young winners (Lee, Lincecum, Sabathia, Peavy).

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to take anything away from Halladay.. he is indeed an amazing pitcher and I know he faces tough batters being in that AL East. But its not like Greinke has feasted on weak lineups (you even pointed out how hes faced more quality hitters than CC Sabathia, believe it or not).

Edited September 30, 2009 by nmigliore

[nmigliore]

dr33, im surprised you haven't posted about Marco Scutaro and Aaron Hill. Despite Adam Lind being worth more runs with the bat than each of them, Scutaro and Hill have both been the better 'packages' (factoring in defense here). Lind's WAR: 3.5, Hill's WAR: 4.0, Scutaro's WAR: 4.3. Thats 8.3 wins above replacement from the Blue Jays' middle infield.

Though the problem is... after Scutaro, Hill, and Lind.. theres is pretty much nothing for the Blue Jays. The position players with the next highest WAR after those 3 is Lyle Overbay at 1.9 and Jose Bautista at 1.3 (whose numbers are about league average). Same can be said for the pitching staff.. Halladay has been worth approximately 7 wins, but after that, the closest is Ricky Romero (who has been slightly above league average).

edit: Was just scanning fangraphs for articles today and they posted one about Lind - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lind-finishing-up-with-a-bang .. it shows a graph of where he hits HRs and where (for instance he can go to RF and LF with power .. sliders and changeups are pitches he often pulls to RF while he takes fastballs middle-away to LF) .. figured you'd might be interested since its Adam Lind-related. I also noticed hes been the best DH this year in the AL (min. 150 PA).

Edited September 30, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

dr33, im surprised you haven't posted about Marco Scutaro and Aaron Hill. Despite Adam Lind being worth more runs with the bat than each of them, Scutaro and Hill have both been the better 'packages' (factoring in defense here). Lind's WAR: 3.5, Hill's WAR: 4.0, Scutaro's WAR: 4.3. Thats 8.3 wins above replacement from the Blue Jays' middle infield.

Though the problem is... after Scutaro, Hill, and Lind.. theres is pretty much nothing for the Blue Jays. The position players with the next highest WAR after those 3 is Lyle Overbay at 1.9 and Jose Bautista at 1.3 (whose numbers are about league average). Same can be said for the pitching staff.. Halladay has been worth approximately 7 wins, but after that, the closest is Ricky Romero (who has been slightly above league average).

Romero will get better though. But I feel sorry for that team (kinda) with Vernon Wells completely crapping the bed after he got signed to that contract that still has something like 3 or 4 yrs on it. It's completely destroyed them, especially when they finally get other hitters

[devilsrule33]

Romero will get better though. But I feel sorry for that team (kinda) with Vernon Wells completely crapping the bed after he got signed to that contract that still has something like 3 or 4 yrs on it. It's completely destroyed them, especially when they finally get other hitters

Sadly it is 5 more years. And the contract was heavily back loaded so he is making $21 million a year now. He is untradeable, but I really think he'll have a better season next year. I mean he has to doesn't he.

As for Hill and Scutaro...they have been outstanding to say the least. Scutaro really came out of nowhere and became an excellent lead off hitter. Hill should be a lock for comeback player of the year. He's pretty good defensively, but I just don't see him repeating with 36 home runs next year. I really would be shocked. Scutaro is a FA, and it should be interesting what the market value is for a guy who at a breakout season at 34.

I talked about Lind because I can't believe what a good hitter he has become. You mentioned the ability to hit balls everywhere. He has ridiculous power to the opposite field and his plate discipline is excellent. I think he leads the majors in 2 strike hits.

[nmigliore]

Sadly it is 5 more years. And the contract was heavily back loaded so he is making $21 million a year now. He is untradeable, but I really think he'll have a better season next year. I mean he has to doesn't he.

Yeah that contract is awful. He probably will have better year next year with the bat (probably a bit above league average is my guess), but his defense is just flat out terrible.

As for Hill and Scutaro...they have been outstanding to say the least. Scutaro really came out of nowhere and became an excellent lead off hitter. Hill should be a lock for comeback player of the year. He's pretty good defensively, but I just don't see him repeating with 36 home runs next year. I really would be shocked. Scutaro is a FA, and it should be interesting what the market value is for a guy who at a breakout season at 34.

Yeah it will be interesting to see what he gets, I highly doubt he'll ever repeat being 4 wins above replacement though. Hes a Type-A free agent, so assuming the Jays offer him arbitration, he will cost a team their 1st round draft pick to the Jays (unless they have a protected pick, ie: pick 1-15, which in that case the team signing him loses their 2nd round pick to the Jays). So the good for the Jays is they can gain a draft pick at least. But at age 34 he'll be looking for some stability, and he'll probably get it since hes the top SS on the free agent market.

Dr33, I wonder how you feel about trading Roy Halladay. The team can get back a great prospect package in return, although they probably would have gotten the 'best' package if they dealt him at the past trade deadline. Though if hes open to signing an extension and the Jays feel like they can compete sooner rather than later, then maybe they should keep him and extend him. But I dont know.. they have a ton of cash tied up on Wells and they will have to eventually give a big raise to Lind once he becomes arbitration eligible. The Aaron Hill contract looks pretty nice and they only pay him $9M over the next 2 years with recurring option years after that. Hmm.. might they even consider trading Hill while hes cheap and his stock is way above his head?

Edited October 1, 2009 by nmigliore

[devilsrule33]

Well Halladay possibly ends his career with Toronto in style. Back-to-back complete game shutouts...the last a 3 hitter against a pretty weak Red Sox lineup, half Pawtucket. Give him 9 CGs on the year and 4 shutouts...both tops in the league.

Anyway trading Halladay all depends on what ownership wants to do. But no one has heard a word from them yet, and we still don't have a full time President (just Paul Beeston who was supposed to be here for a few months until he find out a long-term solution) to tell the fans what the direction the team is going in. If they don't raise payroll than you have to trade Halladay, but the team could conceivably raise payroll to $120 million this off-season.

The Rogers company is one of the richest owners in all of sports, but has never been willing to put much money into the team. Ted Rogers died last year, and the man left in charge of the baseball team doesn't seem to have much interest. Rogers has always considered this team purely an investment and not something of any interest. They bought the team for peanuts and the stadium crumbs (25 million, which is less than what the then state-of-art jumbotron cost to build).

Anyway, the fans all seem left in limbo right now, but there has been a lot of talk about raising the payroll quite a bit. Go after some big name free agents like Jason Bay. Try and sign Chone Figgins. Maybe actually go big and try try to trade for a big bat like Prince Fielder.

There are still a bunch of question marks for the Jays moving forward besides payroll. Is Edwin Encarnaciaon an every day third baseman for the future? He did hit 26 home runs last year, but had an awful year due to a wrist injury. But his power numbers have really picked up in the last month. And of course what to make of the start for Randy Ruiz? Truly a fantastic story. The man will be 32 in a few weeks. Has been a minor leaguer his whole career and a dominating one winning MVP awards and home run titles along the way. He has been part of 8-10 organizations, but no one bothered calling him up. Finally last year gets a small chance with the Twins, but nothing much. This year he dominates on the Jays triple A team (ends up winning MVP of the league) finally gets a call up and has been mashing home runs since. The strange thing is Cito Gaston (maybe the dumbest man in the league) barely plays him. He refused to put Lind in the field and keeps playing Kevin Millar (nothing much left in the tank, though a nice guy). But when he does play it has been fun. The guy is a bomber. He has crushed balls harder than I have seen anyone this year. In New York, the Yankees thought his homer off Burnett was the longest they had seen all year. Anyway, when playing the man has 9 HRs in 30 games, and that is been playing here and there with no consistency at all. His 11.55 AB/HR ratio has to be near the tops in the league. Maybe he can be the DH moving forward.

What about Litsch, Marcum and McGowan? Three huge question marks. Two coming back from Tommy John Surgery and McGowan had to repair something to do with his labrum and then had knee surgery during the recovery. No one knows what they will be like moving forward.

Edited October 1, 2009 by devilsrule33

[nmigliore]

He refused to put Lind in the field or keeps playing Kevin Millar (nothing much left in the tank even though a nice guy). But when he does play it has been fun. The guy is a bomber. He has crushed balls harder than I have seen anyone this year. In New York, the Yankees thought his homer off Burnett was the longest they had seen all year. Anyway, when playing the man has 9 HRs in 30 games, and that is been playing here and there with no consistency at all. His 11.55 AB/HR ratio has to be near the tops in the league. Maybe he can be the DH moving forward.

Well if you wanna go by UZR/150 for defense, Lind been a pretty brutal LF'er. He's been ~16 runs below average and ~19 runs below average the past 2 seasons respectively (which approaches Adam Dunn territory); so my point is that he seems like a guy that would fit better in DH role. But if the organization really likes Ruiz (I will say I wouldn't go nuts over production thats a little over 100 AB; thats a small sample size) then perhaps they could move Overbay for some prospects (which is do-able, hes coming off of a nice year and hes only due $7M for 2010 and then hes a FA) and stick Ruiz at 1B? As for Encarnacion - hes always been about league average with the bat but a butcher in the field. If I were the Jays I would consider non-tendering Encarnacion and signing Chone Figgins to be the 3B, who is a very versatile player and is a terrific leadoff hitter.

Edited October 1, 2009 by nmigliore

[devilsrule33]

It's September baseball. Who cares. This is the perfect time to get Lind in the field. By the way, Cito is so loyal to Kevin Millar that he played him at 3rd base for the past couple of games. The first one keeping Ruiz out of the lineup. So you'd rather have Lind at DH and Millar at 3rd than Lind in LF and Ruiz at DH? The man is a tool and has not used September baseball for what it is meant to be for a team out of it. And I wouldn't go nuts about Ruiz in the small sample size either, but it didn't have to be a small sample size if Gaston didn't feel the need to play Millar or Bautista instead of him. This makes it very tough for the organization to evaluate Ruiz with such small sample sizes.

Encarnacion is a funny guy at 3rd. Everything is an adventure. He makes the difficult plays look easy, but every routine groundball becomes a real adventure.

Edited October 1, 2009 by devilsrule33

[nmigliore]

It's September baseball. Who cares. This is the perfect time to get Lind in the field. By the way, Cito is so loyal to Kevin Millar that he played him at 3rd base for the past couple of games. The first one keeping Ruiz out of the lineup. So you'd rather have Lind at DH and Millar at 3rd than Lind in LF and Ruiz at DH? The man is a tool and has not used September baseball for what it is meant to be for a team out of it. And I wouldn't go nuts about Ruiz in the small sample size either, but it didn't have to be a small sample size if Gaston didn't feel the need to play Millar or Bautista instead of him. This makes it very tough for the organization to evaluate Ruiz with such small sample sizes.

Lind can play LF all he wants in September (well, this season is pretty much over all but over now lol), but if he continues to be worth negative 15-20 runs then he isn't going to last out there. Just for example - Lind JUST with the bat this year has been worth close to 6 wins above replacement level. But when you factor in his defense, his wins above replacement drops to about 3.5.

As for Cito Gaston - eh, I really can't judge a manager unless I see him over a portion of a season, but I'll take your word for it that hes not good (why is he even playing Millar? hes been awful this year)

Encarnacion is a funny guy at 3rd. Everything is an adventure. He makes the difficult plays look easy, but every routine groundball becomes a real adventure.

Yeah like I said, hes about a league average hitter and one of the worst fielders at 3B.

Chone Figgins would be a nice pickup for Toronto - very versatile (can play a ton of positions), hes a great fielder at 3B, and is an excellent leadoff hitter who can get on base at a very high rate and steal bases.

Edited October 1, 2009 by nmigliore