Belizarius Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 I agree with moustic, it's hard for us to explain what we really feel about that because of the language barrier... The proportions of this are bigger than usual but you know, burning cars is a kind of "national sport" at least on january 1st... so nothing new. What's surprising me are the targets. Some places are burning and... well, i wonder if there's not something hiden behind... the "far right" is probably involved on some fires as well (an immigrant social center burnt for example) and there's probably some commercial aspects as well (some stores)... no evidence on it but some fires are curious. Anyway... sending the army is not our culture, that's it. We're still afraid of 1930's imperialism to let a government use the army for that... I believe there's a lot of copy : some guys are watching that on TV and say why not us... Thanks for your support anyway I think I'm living in one of the calmest country of France so I don't believe we're going to see a lot of fires near Tours. Most of the little towers in our suburbs were destructed since 2000 with our new mayor and we don't have a lot of incidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Thanks for your support anyway I think I'm living in one of the calmest country of France so I don't believe we're going to see a lot of fires near Tours. Most of the little towers in our suburbs were destructed since 2000 with our new mayor and we don't have a lot of incidents. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So... I will take all the support you give us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 You know, I'm going to trust Moustic and Belizarius on this one. They are there. Media is very capable of blowing stuff out of proportion. They can show the same scene from 10 different angles to make it look like a different place. France has there way of doing things, which is not the US way. Who are we to judge? I hope it is over very soon, like tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Leeds Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 France has there way of doing things, which is not the US way. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I smell a surrender coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I smell a surrender coming. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A good french is a dead french ? that's it jimmy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belizarius Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Shoot before, think after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Leeds Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 A good french is a dead french ? that's it jimmy ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetsGoDevils Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 The French Revolution II So, has the Bastille been taken yet? Chirac is heading towards his own political guillotine if he keeps letting things go. Again, time to send in the troops to restore order. Local law enforcement is being overwhelmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 A good french is a dead french ? that's it jimmy ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He didn't say anything like that but of course he is an evil racist police officer so its no surprise you assumed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) I'm sure the insult was meant out of pure love an compassion towards the french people. Edited November 7, 2005 by Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueNJ97 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 Since both Moustic & Belezarius have pointed out that it is against French law to send in the army (because of things that have happened before when they did it) it's not an option. So local law enforcement will have to deal with it on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 maybe You can send us Bruce Willis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 France burns and terror is spreading but the Socialists are rejoicing because the evil military can not be used to cause trouble. Thank god I live in America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueNJ97 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 maybe You can send us Bruce Willis... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah. For this you need our Austrian import. We'll send Ah-nold. Sigh. If only it were that simple. About the coverage of it over here, as Maddog mentioned, for about a week, there wasn't anything on TV. They might mention that it's the 5th night of riots outside Paris, but it was as part of another conversation entirely. There were no stories about it on TV and if you wanted to find mention of it in the press, it was generally the same, Associated Press story in every paper. It wasn't until the President issued the travel warning to US citizens that it actually hit the TVs and then, most networks were using the ITV feed from overseas for pictures. So most of what we were seeing wasn't US reporting. As for your suggestion that one way to stop it would be to stop giving it press coverage in France, I guess it doesn't occur to us. That would, well, be censorship. And as troubling as I sometimes find the wall-to-wall coverage of wars, disasters and other terrible events, I also find it troublesome when our own leadership wants our press to NOT cover the disturbing parts of them. We criticise our leadership for it and I think that withholding coverage of this in France would be the same kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetsGoDevils Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Since both Moustic & Belezarius have pointed out that it is against French law to send in the army (because of things that have happened before when they did it) it's not an option.So local law enforcement will have to deal with it on their own. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So, is that Nero heard playing in the background or Chirac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Muslims more integrated in US than France http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...+US+than+France CHICAGO, Nov 8 (AFP) - While Arab Americans and Muslims suffered a spike in hate crimes after the September 11 attacks, they do not face the same level of disenfranchisement as their French counterparts, experts say. "They're discriminated against but they have jobs -- this is the major difference from Europe," Yvonne Haddad, a professor of Islamic history at Georgetown University in Washington told AFP. Arab and Muslim immigrants in the US generally identify themselves as Americans and integrate with relative ease into a society that prides itself on social mobility and has more tolerance for cultural and religious differences, Haddad said. "To identify as French you have to renounce your faith and have to renounce you previous identity as though your previous self didn't exist. In the US you don't have to," she said. Arabs are a tiny minority in the United States, making up less than one percent of the population, according to the census bureau. They also constitute only about a quarter to a third of the country's Muslims, estimated at six million to seven million people or about two percent of the population. Arab Americans and Muslims are better educated and have a higher income than the national average, said Edina Lekovic, communications director for the Muslim Public Affairs Council. "There's no clear connection between the European and the American Muslim experience," she said, explaining that Muslims in the United States are less isolated and homogeneous than their European counterpart. She cautioned against painting the riots as a religious issue rather than the result of economic and political disenfranchisement. "This is the culmination of a series of events and it has very little or nothing to do with quote-unquote (Muslim) extremism," she said, noting that France has more Muslim-friendly foreign policy than the United States. "French Muslims are not responding to the issues of Palestine or Iraq. They are responding to their domestic situation." The real parallel to the French riots is the African-American race riots of the 1960s and following the Rodney King beating in Los Angeles, said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. "It's the act of an underclass with expectations that have gone unfulfilled for a long period of time striking out, out of a combination of despair and anger," he said in a telephone interview. France and other European countries have maintained a national identity that is tied to ethnicity while the American identity has shifted over time as waves of immigrants reshape the country. "As long as these kids grow up not only in an economic underclass but excluded from being French or Dutch it's problematic," Zogby said. "When people in my community get angry about American foreign policy they get angry as citizens and they fight back as citizens. The process is more open to including them." Copyright AFP Subject: French news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belizarius Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 nice article with some good points. Just a note, I think Muslims going to US are highly qualified or are going for studies and staying there. In Europe it's poor population coming in boats across the sea or joining some family already there since the 1960's. I don't think it's the same Muslim population. Anyway good article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Devil Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 (edited) I don't think sending in the military is a sure way to end the riots promptly in France. Maybe a major reason why they don't want to send in the troops is because it could inflame the rioters and turn brush fires into full firestorms. The demographics and culturally differences are much different in France then the United States. What typically works in the US, doesn't mean it will work in France. Look at some of the european soccer riots that have esculated, the european poor are just absolutely nuts and full of rage. Going in shooting could just make the poor angrier and more violent if they are being shot at and being beating back towards their holes. Some people with absolutely nothing but rage and anger at their government are crazy enough to try to fight against military soldiers. Remember how the Boston Massacare started and ended? Soldiers firing on looters and rioters was the final straw that led Great Britain's colonies to unite everyone against them. I also do agree that our posters in France understand the situation better and probably know how it should be handled. Edited November 8, 2005 by E-Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 As i "predict" (i'm not a genius.. it's so classic) The riot start to slow... almost finish in Paris suburb (I will wait tonight to say "ok.. finish")... and slowly end in another place in France BUT... problem still here the hole is huge between two differents worlds (anyway no need to use army...) I just hope we never need army to solve our next/present problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbdf Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Society is much different in europe also. The U.S. has always been a hodgepodge of nationalities, cultures, religions etc (and each has had it's own trouble overcoming the predjudices of the established majorities as they came to this country). But we've been doing it for over 200 years now, while in europe, immigration among countries is a fairly recent thing - each nation over there has historically been comprised of, well, that nation's nationality. French were in France, Germans in Germany, Brit's in England, etc. Now, in the past say 50 years or so, people start working their way over the borders, immigrants from poor countries, africa, middle east, etc start moving in too. Well, the nationalism still runs high so these immigrants and border crossers are seen as outsiders, taking jobs or land or government assistance or whatever from the people of that nation, changing the culture - which in Europe, goes back thousands of years. Your bound to have problems and sporadic uprisings - one side pushes the other side back until they say, "enough" and things boil over, then settle down, and start over again. Predjudice, bigotry, racism, whatever you want to call it, it exists everywhere, and in every person to some degree - you can't force people to accept a new way of life, a new reality. That's a change that just happen gradually over time, over generations. I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect or anything like that, but just that we've had more practice at the whole assimilation thing, and, we never really had a "one nationality/one culture" thing here, so immigrants always had a chance to slip in and assimilate, through a small group of their own culture, into the greater culture of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 rbdf.. I disagree... "We" have a very old story... a story made with a lot of immigration, from french to others country (not other european country but must far) and from foreigner in France.... When i say "old story"... I think "century & century" Ok i'm awful in English... but i'm a historian... so... I Agree about racism who is very strong in europe, in france Education is the solution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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