7 Days of Rioting in France

[SueNJ97]

One more question for you. Why do you keep comparing French and US suburbs as if there are large problems of poverty and rioting in US suburbs. US suburbs have issues, but in general, poverty and rioting aren't among them. In fact, that's the kind of thing Americans (of all races) move to the suburbs, rightly or wrongly, to get away from. There are people with economic problems in our suburbs but there are not large concentrations of them in housing projects.

We have problems of poverty that are concentrated largely in urban centers and in rural areas. Our housing projects are largely in our cities, not in our suburbs, and in fact, it has been determined that this type of planning, where poor people are separated out and 'warehoused' together into these projects don't work and tends to lead to a cycle of poverty. They have actually been bulldozing some of the projects in Chicago. Unfortunately, we have not been able to come with enough other forms of affordable housing yet but you aren't going to see these kind of housing projects built again in large numbers in this country anytime soon.

[moustic]

And I never said they rioted because they WERE Muslim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think no one say that you said that..

I say that Riot doesn't imply ONLY muslim or whatever... doesn't imply a religion issue... it's only young french people (black, white, or.. what you call "muslim")

[Devils731]

I was just thinking the exact opposite thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please explain. People have been getting hammered for killing the police and nobody has been told they are awful for saying Muslims tend to be causing problems?

[LizDevil30]

Right Sue, the religions of the world class, but not an elective, it should be introduced to children at a young age, no choice just like a health class.

[SueNJ97]

Right Sue, the religions of the world class, but not an elective, it should be introduced to children at a young age, no choice just like a health class.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I'm with you on the 'no-opt-out' part. And who would have thought we'd agree on it, but it is the only way to get everyone, including the people who would be absolutely against it, on all sides, in the class and at an age before they have had it hammered into their head by their parents that something is 'bad'. You just lay out the basic tenets of each religion, like a Chinese menu, with no good-bad-or-indifferent and let them have at it. In fact, it would be kind of like geography. What is the capital of Australia? What is the purpose of prayer in the different religions, if any? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[LizDevil30]

I think it's worth a shot. We tend to fear what we don't understand. And I certainly don't think Betty Jo and Billy Bob have a snowballs chance in hell of explaining with any accuracy a religion other than their own. If they would even care to in the first place.

[Don]

Please explain.  People have been getting hammered for killing the police and nobody has been told they are awful for saying Muslims tend to be causing problems?

That some people cry that we are quick to paint the whole police force as corrupt due to the actions of the few and then justify painting all Muslims as violent haters due to the actions of a few.

It's wrong in either case. But it's no new tactic. It's hard to promote hatred without it.

[Jimmy Leeds]

Maybe our policemen friends need some sensitivity training about how not to let their power go to their heads and how not to instinctively want to beat up/maim/kill anyone with darker skin than their own... isn't that right, Rodney King?

No, you just hate all Muslims... and everyone else, for that matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't hate anybody, but Don appears to "loathe" me.

Anyway, you also don't know squat about Rodney King except 30 seconds of video.

Next time you fear for your pencil neck arse when you walk up the wrong alley in Albany, who you gonna call? Rodney?

Betcha you don't tell the responding cop you think he's a racist as you sir him up and down.

[Devils731]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/04/D8DLRF301.html

Unrest in Paris Suburbs Enters Second Week

By JAMEY KEATEN

Associated Press Writer

LE BLANC MESNIL, France

Small, mobile groups of youths hit Paris' riot-shaken suburbs with waves of arson attacks, torching hundreds of cars, as unrest entered its second week Friday and spread to other towns in France.

A woman on crutches was doused in flammable liquid and set on fire earlier this week as she tried to get off a bus in a Paris suburb, a judicial official said Friday. She suffered severe burns.

In the eastern city of Dijon, teens apparently angered by a police crackdown on drug trafficking in their neighborhood set fire to five cars, said Paul Ronciere, the region's top government official.

Another 11 cars were burned at a housing project in Salon-de-Provence, near the southern city of Marseille, police said.

Overnight in the Paris region, at least 520 cars were set ablaze, up from previous nights, the Interior Ministry said. It said five police were slightly injured by thrown stones or bottles.

But unlike previous nights, there were few direct clashes with security forces, no live bullets fired at police, and far fewer large groups of rioters, said Jean-Francois Cordet, the top government official for the worst-hit Seine-Saint-Denis suburb northeast of Paris.

Instead, he said, the unrest was led by "very numerous small and highly mobile groups," with arson attacks that destroyed 187 vehicles and five buildings, including three sprawling warehouses.

"The peak is now behind us," said Gerard Gaudron, mayor of Aulnay- sous-Bois, another badly hit town. He told France-Info radio that parents were determined to keep teenagers home to prevent unrest. "People have had enough. People are afraid. It's time for this to stop."

In the northeast suburb of Sevran on Wednesday, youths doused a woman on crutches with flammable liquid and set her on fire with a burning rag as she struggled to get off a bus, a judicial official said, citing the bus driver's report to police. The driver, who had ordered passengers to leave the bus because flaming objects were blocking the road, helped the injured woman get off, the official said.

Justice Minister Pascal Clement deplored the incident Friday, saying it caused him "great emotion."

The rioting started Oct. 27, after youths were angered over the deaths of two teenagers _ Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17. They were electrocuted in a power substation where they hid, thinking police were chasing them.

Traore's brother, Siyakah Traore, on Friday urged protesters to "calm down and stop ransacking everything."

"This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," he said on RTL radio.

Car torchings are a daily fact of life in France's tough suburbs, with thousands burned each month, police say. Police intelligence has recorded nearly 70,000 incidents of urban violence this year, including attacks on police and rescue services, arson, throwing projectiles, clashes between gangs, joy-riding and property destruction, Le Monde reported.

What sets this unrest apart is its duration, intensity and the way it rapidly grew beyond the original flashpoint of Clichy-sous-Bois in northeast Paris to become a broader challenge for France. No urban violence of this nature has lasted this long, said Pascal Perrineau, director of the Center for the Study of French Political Life.

Many of the riotous youths are the French-born children of immigrant parents. The unrest has laid bare discontent simmering in suburbs and among immigrant families who feel trapped by poverty, unemployment, and poor education.

France's Muslim population, estimated at 5 million, is Western Europe's largest. Immigrants and their children often complain of police harassment and job discrimination.

National police spokesman Patrick Hamon, however, said there was "nothing that allows us to say that Islamists" were behind the recent unrest.

Some 1,300 riot police fanned out overnight across Seine-Saint-Denis, as the unrest entered its second week and followed Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin's vow Thursday to restore order.

A commuter train line linking Paris to Charles de Gaulle airport northeast of the capital ran a scaled-back service Friday after two trains were targeted Wednesday night. The SNCF train authority said one in five trains was running and conductors of night trains were demanding onboard security.

Youths fired buckshot at riot police vehicles in Neuilly-sur-Marne, east of Paris, and a group of 30 to 40 harassed police near a synagogue in Stains to the north where a city bus was torched and a school classroom partially burned, Cordet said.

In Trappes, to the west, 27 buses were incinerated. But the unrest was scaled back from the sometimes-ferocious rioting of previous nights, when bullets were fired at police and firefighters without causing injuries.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Devils731

[LizDevil30]

Updated: 10:01 PM EST

Violence in France Enters 10th Night

Security Tightens as Riots Spread Across the Country

By ELAINE GANLEY, AP

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.ad...S00010000000001

By 1 a.m., at least 607 vehicles - including those in Paris - were burned during the 10th night of violence, said Patrick Hamon, spokesman for the national police. The overall figures were expected to climb by daybreak, he added.

The violence - originally concentrated in neighborhoods northeast of Paris with large immigrant populations - has spread across France, extending west to the rolling fields of Normandy and south to resort cities on the Mediterranean. Attacks were reported in Cannes and Nice.

In the Normandy town of Evreux, arsonists burned at least 50 vehicles, part of a shopping center, a post office and two schools, Hamon said.

Five police officers and three firefighters were injured battling the blazes, he said.

The unrest is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with unemployment, poor housing, racial discrimination, crime and a lack of opportunity.

Police deployed a helicopter and tactical teams to chase down youths speeding from one attack to another in cars and on motorbikes. Some 2,300 police were brought into the Paris region to bolster security, France-Info said. More than 250 people were arrested.

The violence erupted Oct. 27 following the accidental electrocution of two teenagers who hid in a power substation, apparently believing police were chasing them.

The anger spread to the Internet, with blogs mourning the youths.

Along with messages of condolence and appeals for calm were insults targeting police, threats of more violence and warnings that the unrest will feed support for France's anti-immigration extreme right.

"Civil war is declared. There will no doubt be deaths. Unfortunately, we have to prepare," said a posting signed "Rania."

"We are going to destroy everything. Rest in peace, guys," wrote "Saint Denis."

The unrest reached Paris late Saturday. Hamon had no immediate information on the neighborhoods where the vehicles were torched. Paris police headquarters said three cars were damaged by fire in the Republique section, northeast of City Hall.

"It's copycat acts," Hamon said. "All these hoodlums see others setting fires and say they can do it, too."

Evreux, 60 miles to the west, appeared to suffer the worst damage Saturday. The burning of the shopping center showed that "there is a will to pillage," Hamon said. "This has been true since the start," referring to grocery stores, video stores and other businesses that have been set afire.

The unrest has taken on unprecedented scope and intensity, reaching far-flung corners of France on Saturday, from Rouen in Normandy to Bordeaux in the southwest to Strasbourg near the German border.

However, the Paris region has borne the brunt.

In quiet Acheres, on the edge of the St. Germain forest west of Paris, arsonists burned a nursery school, where part of the roof caved in, and about a dozen cars in attacks the mayor described as "perfectly organized."

Children's photos clung to the blackened walls, and melted plastic toys littered the floor. Residents gathered at the school gate, demanding that the army be deployed or suggesting that citizens band together to protect their neighborhoods.

Mayor Alain Outreman tried to cool tempers.

"We are not going to start militias," he said. "You would have to be everywhere."

Cars were torched in the cultural bastion of Avignon in the south and the resort cities of Nice and Cannes, a police officer said.

Arson was reported in Nantes in the southwest, the Lille region in the north and Saint-Dizier in the Ardennes region east of Paris. In the eastern city of Strasbourg, 18 cars were set alight in full daylight, police said.

In one attack, youths in the eastern Paris suburb of Meaux prevented paramedics from evacuating a sick person from a housing project. They pelted rescuers with rocks and then torched the waiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry official said.

Most of the overnight arrests occurred near Paris. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy warned that those convicted could face severe sentences for burning cars.

"Violence penalizes those who live in the toughest conditions," he said after a government crisis meeting.

Most rioting has been in towns with low-income housing projects where unemployment and distrust of police run high. But in a new development, arsonists were moving beyond their heavily policed neighborhoods to attack others with less security, Hamon said.

"They are very mobile, in cars or scooters. ... It is quite hard to combat" he said. "Most are young, very young, we have even seen young minors."

There appeared to be no coordination between separate groups in different areas, Hamon said. But within gangs, he added, youths are communicating by cell phones or e-mails.

"They organize themselves, arrange meetings, some prepare the Molotov cocktails," he said.

In Torcy, close to Disneyland Paris, a youth center and a police station were set ablaze. In Suresnes, on the Seine River west of the capital, 44 cars were burned in a parking lot.

"We thought Suresnes was calm," said Naima Mouis, a hospital employee whose car was torched.

On Saturday morning, more than 1,000 people marched through one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois. Local officials wore sashes in the red, white and blue of the French flag as they filed past housing projects and the wrecks of burned cars. One white banner read, "No to violence."

Anger was fanned days ago when a tear gas bomb exploded in a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois - the northern suburb where the youths were electrocuted.

Sarkozy also has inflamed passions by referring to troublemakers as "scum."

[moustic]

Last night, one car was burned in front of the door of my house...

One of the 28 in Paris...

One of the 1300 in France

[LetsGoDevils]

Time to send in lots and lots of troops.

[moustic]

Time to send in lots and lots of troops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really really really don't believe in this solution...

if we solve the cause... we solve the consequence

Send the "army" to solve that... is the worst thing to do

[RowdyFan42]

Actually, Moustic, I have to agree with LGD here. If the French government doesn't send in the army to stop this, how long will it last? Is it going to die down by itself? Certainly it's extreme to call in the troops, but at this point, what other options are available?

[moustic]

Actually, Moustic, I have to agree with LGD here.  If the French government doesn't send in the army to stop this, how long will it last?  Is it going to die down by itself?  Certainly it's extreme to call in the troops, but at this point, what other options are available?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's France it's not USA

Army are not allowed to go in civil area...

It's not civil war...

Ok it's worse than usual

Ok it's very very very hard to explain

But we must find a "civic" way to end this crisis

If you wanna my opinion... i'm sure it's going to die down by itself, medias will soon stop talking about, polician will stop to think about this problem.... and the problem will still be here.

We must kill poverty, unemployement... we must destroy this awful building...build as social prison... we must build decent house...

And in the other side... "Crazy Young People" must stop doing all this crap ! They destroy cars of their neighborhoud (sp?)... from all the people in same poverty... it's stupid ! (i don't say "burn the rich's car")

Education is solution !

(not army, weapon & "demonstration of almighty POWER")

[Don]

We must kill poverty, unemployement... we must destroy this awful building...build as social prison... we must build decent house...

And in the other side... "Crazy Young People" must stop doing all this crap ! They destroy cars of their neighborhoud (sp?)... from all the people in same poverty... it's stupid ! (i don't say "burn the rich's car")

Brilliant isn't it? Same thing happened with the Rodney King verdict. The poor people saw this as just one more example of the white priviledged people getting away with beating and kicking the poor non-whites. So to voice their displeasure and anger they went and destroyed their own neighborhoods, destroying homes and stores of fellow poor people.

But I do commend you. The typical solution would be to beat them with a stick until they are back in their hole. But your knee-jerk reaction to a car being burnt in front of your place isn't to call in the men with guns to start shooting up the place.

[moustic]

But your knee-jerk reaction to a car being burnt in front of your place isn't to call in the men with guns to start shooting up the place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fact.. It wasn't my reaction last night at 4PM...

i've just call fireman and try to help them (ok... they don't need me... but it's my Boy Scout Side )

[RowdyFan42]

So when does it end, Don? At least Moustic seems to think the rioting won't last much longer. How about you? How long do you think they'll keep going without intervention? A week? A month? How much of the country is going to be destroyed before they either get tired and go home or they get "beaten back into their hole"?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with Moustic that education and solving the country's social ills is the best answer... unfortunately, that's a long-term solution. A short-term solution is needed for the immediate rioting. What is it?

[MaddDog]

So when does it end, Don?  At least Moustic seems to think the rioting won't last much longer.  How about you?  How long do you think they'll keep going without intervention?  A week?  A month?  How much of the country is going to be destroyed before they either get tired and go home or they get "beaten back into their hole"?

I have a feeling these riots are NOT going away any time soon IF the French government does basically NOTHING to confront these hoodlums. Why should they stop their burning of property and setting disabled women on fire if the idiots running the country sit by and let them?? As it is, I've been reading some articles and apparently these suburbs are full fledged ghettos with a horrible crime rate to begin with. The cops don't even want to venture there unless called to the scene because it's just *that* dangerous. MANY (probably hundreds or thousands of) cars have been torched in France this year PRIOR to these riots and Sarkozy said 9,000 police cars have been stoned as well.

To be honest, I'm kinda stunned at the French citizens I've seen online in various message boards who are very nonchalant about this situation. It seems like Americans are more worried, wtf is with that?? You guys SHOULD be very concerned with the way these riots are persisting, intensifying, and spreading to the city of Paris itself and other regions of France!!!! I heard DeVillepin is only NOW starting to get meetings together to discuss the situation, what the hell did he do the WHOLE FIRST WEEK?? Is he going to hold meetings for another month straight while La France burns to the ground?

U.S. got bashed massively by Europe when all the looting and chaos erupted after Hurricane Katrina, yet it didn't take us TEN or more days to get the National Guard in there to take care of the scumbag criminals! Not to mention it was a devastating natural disaster that destroyed HALF OF THE LAND MASS OF FRANCE.

What on earth would happen in France if, say, some disgruntled Frenchman suicide bombed a Muslim neighborhood and killed 100 Muslims?? Would the entire Muslim community in the country start a full fledged civil war if they are doing this over two teens who were stupid enough to hide in a POWER STATION with huge "Danger do not enter" signs on it"?? (Seem like Darwin Award candidates to me, weed out the shallow end of the gene pool).

Moustic, your government CAN declare martial law if they so choose, assuming these riots become even worse. So far they have done nothing, more or less. Why aren't the regular French citizenry royally pissed off? Or maybe they are? I believe in France it's almost impossible to have a gun so that isn't helping matters here. The only people with guns are the thugs and the cops (who aren't using them, only rubber bullets I heard).

Get the military in there and start kicking some ass!!!! Set up a curfew - make it known that anyone who wanders out late at night and starts causing more 'flambe' is going to be shot on sight. Period. These bastards are putting people's lives in danger and one of these days a building FULL OF PEOPLE will go up in flames.

[LizDevil30]

This is what happens when poverty and dispair continue. Yes there needs to be a long term solution. BUT poverty and dispair is no excuse for murder, rioting and destruction of property. The situation has to be brought under control because if it is allowed to continue, how can people put faith in a government to handle a long term solution if they can't put in place a short term one for this chaos.

Moustic and Belizarius be safe.

Edited November 6, 2005 by LizDevil30

[MaddDog]

This is what happens when poverty and dispair continue. Yes there needs to be a long term solution. BUT poverty and dispair is no excuse for murder, rioting and destruction of property. The situation has to be brought under control because if it is allowed to continue, how can people put faith in a government to handle a long term solution if they can't put in place a short term one for this chaos.

I read some article stating that Poland has just as much youth unemployment if not more than France, yet they don't riot like this. Poland really DOES have more poverty as a whole and less social welfare too.

The theory was that some of these immigrants refuse to assimilate into French culture, get generous welfare benefits compared to many Euro nations (see Poland), and are also being influenced by Islamist extremists in the mosques (hey, it may not be so far fetched, France is at least 10% Muslim and others say it's more like close to 20%). Plus there's more rumors that Islamic militants inside and outside France MAY be playing a role in inciting the riots in France. I don't know how true this but nothing would surprise me at this rate.

Combine militant Islam, poverty WITH government handouts, AND a refusal to assimilate, and you have a power keg waiting to blow sky high in France.

[MaddDog]

This is bullsh!t, it sounds like Baghdad is SAFER at this point French authorities and police better get their heads out of their derrieres.... these riots are just getting worse, not dwindling.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html

A country in flames

Edited November 6, 2005 by MaddDog

[moustic]

i'm so sorry to not be able to explain my real point of view...

it's difficult to me (with my awful broken english to explain correctly)

All this crap is really overrated

Don't get me wrong... I don't say "hey no problem... there is nothing wrong in my country yooohoooo let's go yoohoo"

These kids (all this "no brain kids"... this 16 year old warrior ) do it for the show ! it's awful but it's a part of the truth.... If TV stop all their drama about this... in few day, that's will stop.

Crap with my english... When i read me.. i see a Manichean text... all in white or all in black... i'm really sorry

I was watching your media cover about our situation... it's incredible... it's not the same thing I watch with my own eyes... in "your" TV, it's like the Eiffel tower is on fire and we all gonna die in awful suffering

anyway... LizDevil30 thanks you

[MaddDog]

All this crap is really overrated

Mous, will you think that when your car and apartment-house are burned to the ground and you're left homeless and without a vehicle? Or when someone you know dies in a fire?? I still can't believe the French are so indifferent to this, sorry. It's your worst street violence in almost forty years.

These kids (all this "no brain kids"... this 16 year old warrior ) do it for the show ! it's awful but it's a part of the truth....  If TV stop all their drama about this... in few day, that's will stop.

But the riots are STILL going on after ELEVEN days. You are sure they will just stop once everyone ignores them??? I doubt it. I also don't think gasoline bombs and explosives are just "show".

I was watching your media cover about our situation... it's incredible... it's not the same thing I watch with my own eyes... in "your" TV, it's like the Eiffel tower is on fire and we all gonna die in awful suffering

If you want to know the truth, the America media did NOT talk about your riots much at all until several days ago. I had to dig around the Internet for information. The news also totally downplayed the fact that the rioters were Muslims, too. So to say that we made it seem like the Eiffer Tower was ablaze is the farthest thing from the truth.

[moustic]

Mous, will you think that when your car and apartment-house are burned to the ground and you're left homeless and without a vehicle? Or when someone you know dies in a fire?? I still can't believe the French are so indifferent to this, sorry.  It's your worst street violence in almost forty years.

That's the point with my " I can't write what i really think"

Of course it's a shame and a real "horror" for the victim of this crap

(except there is no burning house... yet)

I don't know how to solve this problem, i don't know how many time until this "war" end... I really believe that the burning car stuff will stop really soon... but the real problem we will grown up ! The hole between the two side will be large month after month

Only a long term politic will help us

the short term don't afraid me "too much"... i'm pretty sure the riot will end soon

It's a real SHAME... don't get me wrong.. i'm not the guy who don't care about all that (i'm the extrem opposite)