Joe Thornton or Todd Bertuzzi

[insanity_gallops]

mario lemieux, floppa, bert, and fleury are just a few guys who've complained also.  And as we can see he wasn't serious about it

We all know Mario complains about it, as does Forsberg. As for Bertuzzi complaining, I don't recall him threatening retirement if the rules weren't changed. And Fleury? Man, I don't even know how to react to seeing his name thrown into the argument.

You obviously didn't see todd bertuzzi's debacle against the minnesota wild and st. louis blues when he got absoultely dominated by willie mitchell and barret jackman respectively. One goal in a seven game series against chris osgood is horrible considering he wasn't covered by chris pronger.Thornton has choked at times, but never as much as bert has in the past 3 years.

Hey, by no means am I touting Bertuzzi as an absolute clutch playoff performer. I'm just saying that the truly great players, of which Joe Thornton has the potential to become, find ways to score regardless of their opponent.

Interesting side-note to this. Check out the teams and goalies they've faced in their playoff careers.

Bertuzzi

2000-2001: Colorado Avalanche; Roy

2001-2002: Detroit Red Wings; Hasek

2002-2003: St. Louis Blues; Osgood. Minnesota Wild; Roloson/Fernandez

Thornton

1997-1998: Washington Capitals; Kolzig

1998-1999: Carolina Hurricans; Irbe. Buffalo Sabres; Hasek

2001-2002: Montreal Canadiens; Theodore

2002-2003: New Jersey Devils; Brodeur

2003-2004: Montreal Canadiens; Theodore

Gotta say, in 2002-2003 Bertuzzi should have torn it up; instead he managed 6 points in 14 games with a -3.

Edited October 8, 2004 by insanity_gallops

[bruins4777]

It seems like everybody is voting bert just because of what thornton did in his complaining.

Come on now.

[Derek21]

PK, I try not to factor in the off-ice antics into judging a player. When i look at both these guys, they're close. But Thornton is better. He is the big #1 center for the Bruins and has more on-ice responsibilities. Bertuzzi can do whatever he wants because he doesn't have those extra responsibilities. And he also took a couple of steps backwards this year as was pointed out earlier.

Thornton is better and will continue to improve. I can't logically say that about Bertuzzi.

[Jerrydevil]

If the question is, "Who would you rather encounter in a dark alley?" I'll pick Thornton.

If the question is "Who's a bigger loser?" I'll pick Bertuzzi.

If the question is, "Who has said stupider things in the media?" it's a toss-up.

If the question is, "Who would you rather have on your team?" I'll ask for another question.

[Swede]

If the question is, "Who would you rather have on your team?" I'll ask for another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[bruins4777]

If the question is, "Who would you rather have on your team?" I'll ask for another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does this mean you wouldn't have either on your team?

[bruins4777]

Well actually all those players u mentioned. NEVER played on a line with thornton.

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

Bertuzzi is the better player. You can add up intangibles all you want but Bertuzzi IMO is just the more dominant player. Its is hard to find a hockey player as big as Bertuzzi, it is rare that the player is as amazingly offensivly gifted as Bert, the thing that puts him over the top is that Bertuzzi may be the meanest forward the game has seen with talent since Neely. I dunno if Neely was as mean as Bertuzzi.

This is the main reason why I am so encouraged by the results of Aaron Voros. He has the height, hands and mean streak of Bertuzzi. The last part is filling out and improving his speed.

[bruins4777]

Bertuzzi is the better player. You can add up intangibles all you want but Bertuzzi IMO is just the more dominant player. Its is hard to find a hockey player as big as Bertuzzi, it is rare that the player is as amazingly offensivly gifted as Bert, the thing that puts him over the top is that Bertuzzi may be the meanest forward the game has seen with talent since Neely. I dunno if Neely was as mean as Bertuzzi.

This is the main reason why I am so encouraged by the results of Aaron Voros. He has the height, hands and mean streak of Bertuzzi. The last part is filling out and improving his speed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure your when you just look at Bert's best aspects he is pretty much tops in the league, but have you seen his incredible laziness? lack of care in the defensive zone? inconsistent play? constant floating? and poor penalties?

Cam neely was never that bad. He took good penalties, was incredible in his own zone and still managed to do what bert does offensively. Bert has the potential to match neely, but he has yet to show me he can put it all together consistently. Until then bert will never be as good as neely.

Also I think Thornton is barely more dominant than thornton. And Floppa may also be more dominant same with lemieux.

[AndyEF]

I mean that Todd Bertuzzi is the best Player from both.

[Jerrydevil]

"Does this mean you wouldn't have either on your team?"

Bruins4777, that is what I'm saying. Those two players are extremely talented, and talent is a huge part of the game. But I don't like what's between the ears and in the heart of both players. Joe Thornton has a lot of maturing to do. If he does it, then he'll be a player worth the superstar money. Right now he's soft and has an overinflated sense of entitlement.

Bertuzzi, although a great talent, has hurt his team with the over-the-top violence and the stupid comments about the Minnesota fans when that series wasn't even over (remember that?). He's also immature.

To me, these things count.

But if I have to choose one I'd take Thornton. Maybe a different atmosphere can help that kid get his inflated head out of his arse. Bertuzzi's just a thug and has too much baggage now.

[Triumph]

Bertuzzi is 28 by now and he's yet to dominate a playoff series in any meaningful way.

Thornton is what, 24? 25? Last year was a disappointing season for him, but if he has Glen Murray back when the lockout ends, I think he should top 90 points.

Both are immature, but at least Thornton has time to possibly mature.

[SueNJ97]

Bertuzzi is 28 by now and he's yet to dominate a playoff series in any meaningful way.

Thornton is what, 24?  25?  Last year was a disappointing season for him, but if he has Glen Murray back when the lockout ends, I think he should top 90 points.

Both are immature, but at least Thornton has time to possibly mature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bertuzzi has proved over the years that he completely lacks maturity. He is the only player to leave the bench (actually, it was the penalty box, but still) to join an on-ice altercation since the rules were changed to prevent players from doing it. Then there were the idiotic comments in the Minnesota series, and, of course, the attack on Moore. He may actually be the player with the least COMMON SENSE (I'm not just talking about hockey sense, I'm talking about overall common sense) in the NHL who doesn't have a substance abuse problem to blame it on (see: Theo Fleury). Except, of course, Danton, but that's a WHOLE other story. His play has matured over the years BUT HE HASN'T. He's living proof that the two don't necessarily go together. There's no way the upside is worth it.

As for Thornton, meh, he's no favorite of mine but a case has been made that he makes most players who play with him better. So he has some growing up to do but I'd take him. What I would NOT do is make him captain. That doesn't seem to be his forte...at this point. But he hasn't exactly been on a veteran-laden team. Maybe if he spent a few years on one and learned from some vets he might come out the better for it, who knows???

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

Vancouver may do well in the playoffs.......IF THEY HAD A DAMN GOALTENDER. Cloutier.....nuf said.

[bruins4777]

"Does this mean you wouldn't have either on your team?"

Bruins4777, that is what I'm saying. Those two players are extremely talented, and talent is a huge part of the game. But I don't like what's between the ears and in the heart of both players. Joe Thornton has a lot of maturing to do. If he does it, then he'll be a player worth the superstar money. Right now he's soft and has an overinflated sense of entitlement. 

Bertuzzi, although a great talent, has hurt his team with the over-the-top violence and the stupid comments about the Minnesota fans when that series wasn't even over (remember that?). He's also immature.

To me, these things count.

But if I have to choose one I'd take Thornton. Maybe a different atmosphere can help that kid get his inflated head out of his arse. Bertuzzi's just a thug and has too much baggage now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Soft? Name one time in his career he's taken a dive. Thornton is actually a MUCH better leader than people give him credit for. Anybody who's played with him the past 2 years will always tell you "thornton is the best player in the game". He is a great locker room guy, despite the complaining he did. People judge thornton based so much on what he said off the ice and sticking up for his brother. Honestly look what he does on the ice, everybody in that bruins locker room likes him and swears he is the best player in the league. He obviously is liked in his locker room and is a dominant player on the ice and you wouldn't take him on your team?

Bertuzzi is a thug? Immature? Over the top violence? come on now. Moore would have at most gotten a small concussion from bert's hit. The broken neck and stuff that came aftewards was due to the numerous avs players jumping on bertuzzi after bertuzzi FELL from tripping on a stick. Honestly how many players can dominate a game better than bertuzzi? No player on the devils or essentially any team can dominate the way he can. And you wouldn't take him?

[bruins4777]

I see what you mean now. When i say "every player" around him i mean everybody on the ice. knuble would never be a 20 goal guy without thornton, murray never a 40 goal guy without Thornton either.

[bruins4777]

As for Thornton, meh, he's no favorite of mine but a case has been made that he makes most players who play with him better.

[bruins4777]

Bertuzzi is 28 by now and he's yet to dominate a playoff series in any meaningful way.

Thornton is what, 24?  25?  Last year was a disappointing season for him, but if he has Glen Murray back when the lockout ends, I think he should top 90 points.

Both are immature, but at least Thornton has time to possibly mature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Outside of the playoffs, Thornton was far from disappointing. You can't just focus on the points. Thornton was dominant at both ends. He dominated a good deal of games even though he only got a point. Thornton is great cause he can dominate a game offensively, defensively, physically, both, or any other various ways. Making him one of the best, if not the best, all around player in the league.

Bertuzz is a late bloomer just like naslund and many other stars in our league today. Give him time, if he comes back from this steve more accident focused on playing, he'll be even better you just wait.

[Jerrydevil]

Bruins4777, I think you're being too easy on Bertuzzi. Your arguments for Thornton are more convincing.

I love Bertuzzi's ability. He's more trouble than he's worth. The Devils could use a wing like him. But his judgement is awful, and he has hurt his team and himself with inappropriate behavior. That doesn't wash in a sport where teammates depend on each other.

[bruins4777]

Bruins4777, I think you're being too easy on Bertuzzi. Your arguments for Thornton are more convincing.

I love Bertuzzi's ability. He's more trouble than he's worth. The Devils could use a wing like him. But his judgement is awful, and he has hurt his team and himself with inappropriate behavior. That doesn't wash in a sport where teammates depend on each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bertuzzi wouldn't fit on the devils. I just thought you ment any team in general. Power forwards don't work all that well in traps. Unless they are solid at both ends. Which THUS FAR Bertuzzi is not.

Bertuzzi will develop, once he learns to control his anger he will be better. But lets face it, despite those 2 run ins that he has had with the league with moore and the jumping off the bench thing. He has still played great when fully healthy and focused. Are you going to tell me that kind of domination isn't worth it. After that one incident when he was suspended for 10 games for coming off the bench to DEFEND his team mate against a dirty attack, he came back and tore up the league and scored at a higher point per game pace than iggy. The following year he was playing like cam neely and dominating. This year he definently took a step back trying to play like thornton, when he TRIED to make plays and such and then of course the overbloated steve moore incident. I'm still confident Bertuzzi can recover and be great.

Plus even though Bert may have not scored a ton and not have been the same player as before, he still did the one thing that few others can do with ease. Which was create loads of space. There is a reason nazzy was still succeding this past season and was going at a 100 point pace until moore's hit on nazzy, besides nazzy has great skill.

[Weekes Head]

Outside of the playoffs, Thornton was far from disappointing. You can't just focus on the points. Thornton was dominant at both ends. He dominated a good deal of games even though he only got a point. Thornton is great cause he can dominate a game offensively, defensively, physically, both, or any other various ways. Making him one of the best, if not the best, all around player in the league.

Bertuzz is a late bloomer just like naslund and many other stars in our league today. Give him time, if he comes back from this steve more accident focused on playing, he'll be even better you just wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is, in order to succeed and win championships, you need your top players to produce. You can score all the points in the world in the regular season, win MVP awards, scoring trophies, etc etc...but if you can't get the job done in the playoffs, then you WILL be labeled a choker.

Look at Barry Bonds. Perfect example. He shatters records on a daily basis. He's an amazing baseball player. This guy could easily win the MVP still, and he's in his 40s now. Problem is, he has yet to actually DO something in the postseason. That's a problem. It's been well documented, and it WILL tarnish his otherwise amazing career (well, that and those pesky steroids...).

[bruins4777]

Outside of the playoffs, Thornton was far from disappointing. You can't just focus on the points. Thornton was dominant at both ends. He dominated a good deal of games even though he only got a point. Thornton is great cause he can dominate a game offensively, defensively, physically, both, or any other various ways. Making him one of the best, if not the best, all around player in the league.

Thing is, hockey fans expected way more from Joe Thornton and these same Bruins teams in the postseason with higher expectations then normal following them finishing first in their Division and first overall in the East a few times over the last few years, yet the bottom line is they haven't managed to make it past the 1st round in a really long time. I know this past season on Hockeys Future, a lot of the knowledgable regulars in the Bruins group felt the team finally had all the right pieces in place to make a great run for the Cup following the late deals for Gonchar and Nylander, the necessary grit and toughness acquired in picking up Travis Green early on, continuing elite production from their top offensive line, a much steadier defense then the one Ftorek commanded, and the terrific play from rookies Raycroft and Bergeron just to name a few of their brightest sources for hope. People were calling into WEEI sports radio in droves to continually sing the praises of Mike O'Connell bringing in the "best defenseman in the league" in their eyes after so many years where it looked like management wouldn't ever commit to taking the extra steps necessary in surrounding your best players with other great players. I can't tell you how many times I personally heard local Bruins fans here in my area talking seriously about the Stanley Cup returning to Boston back in April. Then reality hit and the ceiling caved in, just like it does with the Red Sox most every year.

The Bruins had the Canadiens on the brink of playoff elimination and they couldn't finish them off and advance to the 2nd round. Not much different from the result following Kyle McLaren's hit on Richard Zednik right before this past season which was the catalyst spurring Montreal onto their first round win just the same. These results fall largely on JT's shoulders, injury or no-injury, as he's the captain of the team and the final decision maker in whether he's healthy enough to play. I know hockey is a team sport and its unfair to pin everything on one players shoulders, but the city of Boston has been waiting since '97 to see JT really turn it up and dominate in the postseason and take his team onto his back for a few games at a time. Joe doesn't dominate in the playoffs to the same degree he does in the regular season. Its a really significant difference to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was actually one of the people who said the bruins would finally win the cup this year. I mean the team looked perfect. Prior to the post season i started calling it the year of the idiot gm's. Clarke's deals were paying off and so were O'connell's.

I guess it was somewhat Thornton's fault. It makes sense what you said about his huge playoff fall off. I don't know, with an injury so sever that he should have been out 10 weeks as opposed to 2 days, i mean i don't know how he could have taken it. Boynton and a bunch of other guys in that dressing room kept on saying Thornton went through more pain than they've ever seen a person go through. Maybe its an excuse, but have you really ever seen somebody outside of bobby orr dominate with an injury so sever? maybe he should have tore it up more, but i doubt ANY player could put up such a high level of play when injured so severly.

[bruins4777]

Outside of the playoffs, Thornton was far from disappointing. You can't just focus on the points. Thornton was dominant at both ends. He dominated a good deal of games even though he only got a point. Thornton is great cause he can dominate a game offensively, defensively, physically, both, or any other various ways. Making him one of the best, if not the best, all around player in the league.

Bertuzz is a late bloomer just like naslund and many other stars in our league today. Give him time, if he comes back from this steve more accident focused on playing, he'll be even better you just wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is, in order to succeed and win championships, you need your top players to produce. You can score all the points in the world in the regular season, win MVP awards, scoring trophies, etc etc...but if you can't get the job done in the playoffs, then you WILL be labeled a choker.

Look at Barry Bonds. Perfect example. He shatters records on a daily basis. He's an amazing baseball player. This guy could easily win the MVP still, and he's in his 40s now. Problem is, he has yet to actually DO something in the postseason. That's a problem. It's been well documented, and it WILL tarnish his otherwise amazing career (well, that and those pesky steroids...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know ANYTHING about baseball. really.

But as for the thing about playing in the post season. Of course i agree, but what i ment was Thornton made a huge stride in his defensive and overall play under sullivan as compared to previous years. Many people said thornton "sucked" this year in the regular season which was a HUGE misconception to me.