redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I know I'm going to get killed for this... but is there any difference int he 3?? all are cheaters... Bonds get the worst rap becuase he's about the break the greatest record in Sports history.. but honestly Jagr is a disgrace in my book... But Bonds uses roids, which until 2 years ago was not even aganst the rules in baseball.. Sosa juices - his body & his bat!!! Jagr uses illegal sticks... and its not like its 1 stick.. at least 2 from last night got banned... Am i craxy?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilMinder Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Red, Besides gambling and illegal sticks, I dont think Jagr has used steroids. Using a drug to improve your body and breaking records of old time guys who had body fat in the 20% range is much worse then anything Jagr could do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Red, Besides gambling and illegal sticks, I dont think Jagr has used steroids. Using a drug to improve your body and breaking records of old time guys who had body fat in the 20% range is much worse then anything Jagr could do. DM I think cheating is cheating, JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) But Bonds uses roids, which until 2 years ago was not even aganst the rules in baseball..Sosa juices - his body & his bat!!! Red, I have a major problem with the rules of baseball argument. Michael Kay has been spouting that one this week. I'm assuming baseball has a rule against having or using controlled substances. (ie heroin, cocaine (I'm not getting into the amphetamine issue.) Let's say baseball rules specifically lists Cocaine and Heroin (I don't know if the rules list specific drugs of abuse or not.) Now along comes a player who feels he can really hit a curveball on PCP. Now we all know PCP is an illegal substance in this country, is it legal in a Major League clubhouse because it wasn't specifically listed in baseball's rules? Anabolic steroids have been on the Controlled substances list in this Country since 1991! But possession of these substances were legal 2 years ago in major league clubhouses!!!!!!!? Last time I looked all these stadia and training faciliites were part of the USA. (Canada, I believe has similar laws against anabolic steroids so I don't want to hear any wise ass comments about that.) I know they use steroids and amphetamines with a wink from the managers, trainers, owners. But please don't try to tell me because there were no written rules against it, it was "legal". Edited March 9, 2006 by Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Red, I have a major problem with the rules of baseball argument. Michael Kay has been spouting that one this week. I'm assuming baseball has a rule against having or using controlled substances. (ie heroin, cocaine (I'm not getting into the amphetamine issue.) Let's say baseball rules specifically lists Cocaine and Heroin (I don't know if the rules list specific drugs of abuse or not.) Now along comes a player who feels he can really hit a curveball on PCP. Now we all know PCP is an illegal substance in this country, is it legal in a Major League clubhouse because it wasn't specifically listed in baseball's rules?Anabolic steroids have been on the Controlled substances list in this Country since 1991! But possession of these substances were legal 2 years ago in major league clubhouses!!!!!!!? Last time I looked all these stadia and training faciliites were part of the USA. (Canada, I believe has similar laws against anabolic steroids so I don't want to hear any wise ass comments about that.) I know they use steroids and amphetamines with a wink from the managers, trainers, owners. But please don't try to tell me because there were no written rules against it, it was "legal". Fair point.. still cheating is cheating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwindog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Well... having questionable integrity is the thing... Jagr may well be using performance enhancing drugs. I think ti's not a big deal in hockey because I dont think they really help that much at the end of the day... but I'm also thinking of bulking up roided out types... I'm sure there are lots and lots of drugs these guys could be and probably ARE taking to keep in top physical form. Getting into the herbal things these days myself - just research... I'm too nervous to take ginko even.. spent enough on that sh!te too I mean, I can see how it's just a hop skip and a jump to some harder stuff - it's not even that it's necessary it's just cool to see how far your body can be pushed... So my point actually is that if Jagr has no problem using an illegal stick or two no doubt he's messed with performance enhancers -- IF that's the way his ego works.. some guys their ego will stear them clear of stuff other guys the ego will lead them to take stuff -- especially as they're getting on in years... and they wont even think of it as cheating really - more enabling I guess I'm sort of agreeing with you red... i think it may be worse to use an illegal stick in some sense -- I think it's a more flagrant cheater mentality. But see the fact these guys hide the fact they're taking enhancers -- that's the thing... I think the drugs are more compulsive and incidious (and sad) than the illegal stick -- the illegal stick your just a flat out cheating pr**k Brerard on steroids - understandble and sad Bonds on steroids - cheating pr**k Jagr on steroids - cheating ***** illegal stick... it's not hidden - someone just has to have the shinier brass ones to call you on it - it's not hidden -- more like a game of chicken... that's why it's not as bad as 'roids. And Roids can kill you at the end of the day -- and illegal stick well Marty might say it's a threat to the goalie but I think that's stretchign some Edited March 9, 2006 by Darwindog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepy steve Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 If marty got caught with pads that were half an inch too wide would you put him in the same category as Bonds? Get real here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwindog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Yes I would... because Marty doesn't NEED the extra padding. It would be a disgrace to hockey and it's history if he did it! I'd lose all respect for him to be frank. And I'm not kidding here either... because it would serve NO PURPOSE except to pad his personal stats... I'd be furious frankly. Jagr I expect it from so I'm far easier on him... and the Rangers need all the help they can get. but mess with the Devils integrity -- I'd be sseething! Edited March 9, 2006 by Darwindog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 If marty got caught with pads that were half an inch too wide would you put him in the same category as Bonds?Get real here. Cheating is cheating... so yes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yes I would... because Marty doesn't NEED the extra padding. It would be a disgrace to hockey and it's history if he did it! I'd lose all respect for him to be frank. And I'm not kidding here either... because it would serve NO PURPOSE except to pad his personal stats... I'd be furious frankly.Jagr I expect it from so I'm far easier on him... and the Rangers need all the help they can get. but mess with the Devils integrity -- I'd be sseething! Keep drinking the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Keep drinking the Derek what is your take on the stick/ goalie padding thing?? Cheating.. but is it as bad as steriods??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Derek what is your take on the stick/ goalie padding thing?? Cheating.. but is it as bad as steriods??? It's different Red. Steroids are on a whole other landscape compared to bigger curves and thicker goalie equipment. I have serious issues with the whole new rule they put in on the fly. And last night was the reason why. Whenever a player questions the legitimacy of how the officials determined it, it begs the question of if they were clear. I think that was Jagr's point. There was confusion. Comparing him to Bonds is insane. Sosa doesn't even deserve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's different Red. Steroids are on a whole other landscape compared to bigger curves and thicker goalie equipment. I have serious issues with the whole new rule they put in on the fly. And last night was the reason why. Whenever a player questions the legitimacy of how the officials determined it, it begs the question of if they were clear. I think that was Jagr's point. There was confusion.Comparing him to Bonds is insane. Sosa doesn't even deserve that. D I go back to my original stmt.. Cheating is cheating... to try and say that 1 form of cheating is different from another.... its still cheating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 D I go back to my original stmt.. Cheating is cheating... to try and say that 1 form of cheating is different from another.... its still cheating... They all do it Red. I'd be willing to bet money that all the big scorers have those bigger curved sticks for special occasions. It's kind of an unwritten rule. It's up to the opponents to call them on it and measure. I've seen it happen more this season. I don't understand why more teams don't measure sticks. They know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 They all do it Red. I'd be willing to bet money that all the big scorers have those bigger curved sticks for special occasions. It's kind of an unwritten rule. It's up to the opponents to call them on it and measure. I've seen it happen more this season. I don't understand why more teams don't measure sticks. They know. Just becuase they all do it does not make it right!! 2 years ago most of the power hitters in MLB juiced, was it al right for Bonds to juice then?? or still unacceptable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteyNice Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's not a black and white thing red. I mean speeding on the Parkway is breaking the law but you cannot compare that to killing 30 people but they are both illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's not a black and white thing red. I mean speeding on the Parkway is breaking the law but you cannot compare that to killing 30 people but they are both illegal. Pete we are not talking about Murder... we are talking about cheating... how is cheating by using steriods different from cheating by corking your bat our using an illegal stick?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteyNice Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The same way breaking the law is different when you speed or park illegally or kill someone. It's a matter of degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 The same way breaking the law is different when you speed or park illegally or kill someone. It's a matter of degree. yopu are compatring apples and oranges.. cheating is cxheating no more no less.. there are no degrees.. you honestly think its worse to cheart using steriods then to cheat by altering your equipment?? Cheating is cheating... come on Gaylord Perry made the HOF being a cheater.. BONDS was laready a hOF before he used steriods.. why does Perry get a pass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'm with Pete. If you're not caught, so be it. If the league wanted to crackdown on this, they could. It's always been up to the teams to call opponents on it. It's hockey's tennis version of gamesmanship. Like when a returner takes more time than they should to throw off the server's rhythm. And the server always gets mad because they are supposed to dictate the flow of points. Baseball has it too when pitchers step off or batters step out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteyNice Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's exactly the same thing. Breaking the law is real life's version of cheating. If you can't make the distinction between cheating by doing something in the open (illegal sticks, larger equipment) and using illegal (like law illegal) substances to boost your performance then I dunno what to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I agree with Pete and Derek here. This just seems like an attempt to bring Jagr down. Sosa and Bonds are real losers, not Jagr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) I'm with Pete. If you're not caught, so be it. If the league wanted to crackdown on this, they could. It's always been up to the teams to call opponents on it. It's hockey's tennis version of gamesmanship. Like when a returner takes more time than they should to throw off the server's rhythm. And the server always gets mad because they are supposed to dictate the flow of points. Baseball has it too when pitchers step off or batters step out. Derek you are talking about 2 diffeent things.. hockey's version of gasmesship is trying to get an chacneg of lines on a faceoff... altering equipment is CHEATING!!! throwing off the rhythm is totally different... And Bonds has never been caught...so does that make it OK??? Edited March 9, 2006 by redruM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Well Red, if that's how you feel then how do you know Elias isn't using illegal sticks? He did it two years ago. So I guess by your definition, Elias is a cheater. I don't subscribe to that theory. If he can get away with it, so be it. The onus is on the teams to call for the stick measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Well Red, if that's how you feel then how do you know Elias isn't using illegal sticks? He did it two years ago. So I guess by your definition, Elias is a cheater.I don't subscribe to that theory. If he can get away with it, so be it. The onus is on the teams to call for the stick measurements. So cheating is OK aslong as you donot get caught?? IS it OK to cheat on exams in school?? Is it OK to cheat people out of money?? where does it end?? Derek I hope when its time for you to have kids and you are coaching some youth team you change your tune... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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