Are the Devils Now cup contendors?

[MantaRay]

As people have pointed out, the Stevens/Nieds era is definitely over.

Do people actually read posts anymore before commenting?

[Devil Dan 56]

Which was my point.

So then why are you so unhappy with the Kovy signing? The team is headed in a different direction. There are a few good defensive prospects in the system, but the offense will be much better.

[brickwall30]

In todays NHL good luck replicating the Stevens/Niedermeyer era. Those days of the NHL are long gone and are not coming back. The fact JVB and Lou went ahead and got the Kovy deal done is to me evidence enough that they realize this. Unfortunately there will be games we lose but people say "well at least Kovy played well. He had 2 goals". How many times on this board has the mantra been said "well we lost today but at least Brodeur played well. He stopped XX/XX shots"?

I'm going to be honest with you manta... your god damn negativity is dragging this fvcking board down. "I want, I want, I want". "The Devils BETTER do at least this". "The Devils better get back to the hockey that made them successful". "They better win at least 2 cups" If we do wind up dominating it is NOT going to be with the same formula that won us the first three cups... its a different NHL with different rules. The sooner you realize this the sooner you can appreciate how great the product is that LL is putting on the ice next season.

HELL ... YEAH!

[Neb00rs]

I want consistency and getting back to Devils hockey through grit and determination. I want us to dominate much like the Stevens/Nieds era.

I see a contradiction here. You say you want to get back to "Devils hockey" though grit and determination like the Stevens and Nieds era. But while determined, the Devils were largely dominant in that era because of skill. Niedermayer, Rafalski and Stevens were 3 of the most skilled defenders in the league and they all offered up a unique style of play.

Secondly, how does Kovy stop this team from being "gritty and determined"? And what is wrong with having an all-around defensive team and one elite player who deviates from that norm? Sounds like a "modern NHL" Devils team to me. Look at the last 3 teams to win the Cup. They all played good defense and had blueline support - true. But Chicago had Hossa, Kane and Toews - Pit had Crosby and Malkin - DET had Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Yes Manta, you need a gritty, determined and solid defensive team to win a Cup. But you also need a few elite offensive players to score/create the goals, especially when the league gets a lot tougher to score in come May.

that wasn't really my point, though admittedly i didn't explain my point all that clear. my point is that asking for 2 stanley cups with kovalchuk in the fold is ridiculous. 1 would be quite an accomplishment.

I think this really depends. If the Devils instantly become a better playoff team and win a Cup in the first 5 years Kovy is here it will be widely considered a successful signing. If it comes after that and the Devs only win one Cup in 12 years, then it will be argued by a large portion of hockey fans and media that the signing was not successful. If the Devils win 2 Cups after Kovy is 35 then that will still be argued.

[brickwall30]

Manta, Considering we also seriously upgraded our quality of defense and now have the envy of the league offensively (IMO) what more could you really ask for? Bare in mind that no matter what players you have you can't just say I want 2 cups because that is a product of a whole hell of a lot more than just the players you have.

The Stevens Neidermayer era was a different NHL, as has been said already. It was a different Devils team. We had arguably the best defense EVER assembled (only one I can think of that may have been better was the Canadiens in the 1970's maybe). That allowed us to set up the opposition to fail and then turn it the other way. A 1 goal lead in the third period was more than enough to say the Devils win on most any night.

The only difference there days is that now that we lost our core of defense and have had to replace them with the likes of Greene, Volchekov, and Tallinder (maybe Urbom) we have to turn our attention instead to being able to overcome any lead against us. and build leads that teams CAN'T overcome because the rules and a lack of available HOF defenseman ( ) unfortunatly keeps us from going back to "The Stevens Neidermayer Days" that we used to enjoy.

So just stop complaining about the fact that Lou has put together one of the best teams in the NHL since the lockout and enjoy the fact that we have the personel to put together a long run of deep playoffs and hopefully if all the stars line up for us we can get ourselves a cup or two while we are at it.

Though it's well worth noting that there are only 4 teams that have as many or more cups since the original six days ended and that is The Oilers and Islanders (who each had one dynasty a piece and look where they are now), The Canadiens who only have more since the original six days because of their dyansty days in the 70's, and the Red Wings who are the only ones that don't demonstrate my point that most teams NEVER get an era of winning cups no matter how many years go by and the ones that do rarely have it happen twice, so the very fact that we are a very serious contender this year should be more than enough for you to stop your complaining and just enjoy the fact that you get to watch one of the best franchises in the history of the league.

[Dead]

I am just happy if the Devils show up and play if I am at the game. Of course it is better if they win! . Now this season I want to see some big plays: Leblond score a goal; lots of goals for; no goals against :x ; Marty score another goal; Martin score a goal FOR the devils.

[MantaRay]

I see a contradiction here. You say you want to get back to "Devils hockey" though grit and determination like the Stevens and Nieds era. But while determined, the Devils were largely dominant in that era because of skill. Niedermayer, Rafalski and Stevens were 3 of the most skilled defenders in the league and they all offered up a unique style of play.

There is no contradiction. Our skilled players were all on the blueline. Our forwards were a group of "interchangeable parts" who were gritty and determined and play as a unit.

Look at the last 3 teams to win the Cup. They all played good defense and had blueline support - true. But Chicago had Hossa, Kane and Toews - Pit had Crosby and Malkin - DET had Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

But the biggest difference was that each winning team had the best corps of defensemen (4 or 5 great players) that stopped the big name forwards when it counted. Each year its the Byfuglins, Bollands, Max Talbots, etc that provide the game changing goals.

Yes Manta, you need a gritty, determined and solid defensive team to win a Cup. But you also need a few elite offensive players to score/create the goals, especially when the league gets a lot tougher to score in come May.

The game has changed only in the regular season.

April, May & June its about having the best defensemen and forward depth.

[Bringbackbrylin]

contendors

[Amberite]

So Manta, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are insisting that a Cup-winning team is built up of an elite defensive corps and good, but not great, "interchangeable parts" offense.

Ok, I'll bite, lets look at the cup winning teams since the lockout:

2010: CHI - 3rd in G/G, 6th in GA/G

2009: PIT - 6th in G/G, 17th in GA/G

2008: DET - 3rd in G/G, 1st in GA/G

2007: ANA - 9th in G/G, 7th in GA/G

2006: CAR - 3rd in G/G, 19th in GA/G

Now, lets look at the Devils since the lockout:

2010: NJD - 19th in G/G, 1st in GA/G

2009: NJD - 15th in G/G, 4th in GA/G

2008: NJD - 27th in G/G, 5th in GA/G

2007: NJD - 27th in G/G, 4th in GA/G

2006: NJD - 22nd in G/G, 9th in GA/G

GF and GA are obviously not the end-all deciding stat which shows if a team has a good offense or defense, but it's pretty close.

So it seems to me that in the last 5 years we have had some real nice defense, but our offense has been mediocre at best. According to your plan, we should be legitimate cup contenders, yet we can't seem to get out of the 1st round.

However, it seems in the last 5 years, the cup-winning teams have a different formula: elite offense and good-to-mediocre defense. In fact, 3 out of 5 cup winning team since the lockout were in the top 3 in the league in terms of goal scoring. The two that weren't were 6th and 9th. The closest we ever got to that was in 2009, when we were 15th.

Maybe your thinking is flawed?

Edited September 10, 2010 by Amberite

[Neb00rs]

So Manta, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are insisting that a Cup-winning team is built up of an elite defensive corps and good, but not great, "interchangeable parts" offense.

Ok, I'll bite, lets look at the cup winning teams since the lockout:

2010: CHI - 3rd in G/G, 6th in GA/G

2009: PIT - 6th in G/G, 17th in GA/G

2008: DET - 3rd in G/G, 1st in GA/G

2007: ANA - 9th in G/G, 7th in GA/G

2006: CAR - 3rd in G/G, 19th in GA/G

Now, lets look at the Devils since the lockout:

2010: NJD - 19th in G/G, 1st in GA/G

2009: NJD - 15th in G/G, 4th in GA/G

2008: NJD - 27th in G/G, 5th in GA/G

2007: NJD - 27th in G/G, 4th in GA/G

2006: NJD - 22nd in G/G, 9th in GA/G

GF and GA are obviously not the end-all deciding stat which shows if a team has a good offense or defense, but it's pretty close.

So it seems to me that in the last 5 years we have had some real nice defense, but our offense has been mediocre at best. According to your plan, we should be legitimate cup contenders, yet we can't seem to get out of the 1st round.

However, it seems in the last 5 years, the cup-winning teams have a different formula: elite offense and good-to-mediocre defense. In fact, 3 out of 5 cup winning team since the lockout were in the top 3 in the league in terms of goal scoring. The two that weren't were 6th and 9th. The closest we ever got to that was in 2009, when we were 15th.

Maybe your thinking is flawed?

The most staggering numbers here are the Cup winning teams, especially Pitt and Car.

But Manta is going to argue that none of this means anything in the playoffs - I've done this numbers analysis before at least three times this past spring - even more in depth.

[ice dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0waNRaz6wU&p=AA5A69B29610B325&playnext=1&index=26