Devils731 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Just to add some different wild speculation, what if the Devils could somehow get Thorton for Parise, Rafalaski, and a first? I know I would do that, but I'm interested if anyone wouldn't. -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Thornton is great and he'd be a great addition. They'd trade him for exactly what I'd be willing to offer -- nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 There's an argument for and against that one same as there would be for and against Gomez being in there. We know what Gomez can do for the most part. Yes, he's young, but in reality we know what he is and what his potential is for the most part. He's never going to be a sniper, always going to be the Adam Oates type player (without the faceoff ability and size). We also know what Rafalski and Thornton are. Parise on the other hand is a wild card. He could bust or he could turn into a superstar. The question then becomes, is the chance that Parise turns into something really special more valuable than what we currently have in Gomez? Either way really though I'd say we have a pretty good team with those trades. Thornton adds a dimension to our team that we haven't ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Just to add some different wild speculation, what if the Devils could somehow get Thorton for Parise, Rafalaski, and a first? I know I would do that, but I'm interested if anyone wouldn't.-Scott I think some people overvalue Joe Thornton. He's been a disappointment, not the star some people think he is. Parise might turn out to be a better player. It's possible. Joe hasn't set the bar too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I disagree, Thornton can take over a game completely and he is still very young. Parise may get to that point, but who knows. Thornton is a special player. He had a down year after his major breakout last year but then again by that logic we would've said that Elias isn't a particularly great player since he had the same thing happen to him and Elias has yet to break 100 points which Thornton did last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 There really aren't too many 6'4" 220 who are just approaching mid 20's forwards out there who can play nasty and rack up points. I think for a Devils team that is lacking a bit of jerk attitude Thorton would be a good fit. I would give up almost any combination of Rafalski + picks or people not currently on roster to get Thornton. Thornton currently has Mats Sundin syndrome in regards to the playoffs, that means he has been cold in the playoffs so far but when he just does his normal regular season play in the playoffs everyone will realize what a stud he is. -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Elias Thornton Gionta..... *salivates* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Let's just say I am not in love with Mr. Retirement Threat. He's a big baby and is not a great leader for that team. He's got talent, unquestionably. But what about the big picture? He gets paid like "the man" but does he really play like "the man"? He complains like an old bat. Maybe he would be better off in a situation where he wasn't the captain, ala Vincent Lecavalier. But I'd be careful about falling in love with his million-dollar size and skill when he doesn't have the heart and balls to match. That's why he's not worth Gomez, Parise and a #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Let's just say I am not in love with Mr. Retirement Threat. He's a big baby and is not a great leader for that team. He's got talent, unquestionably. But what about the big picture? He gets paid like "the man" but does he really play like "the man"? He complains like an old bat. Maybe he would be better off in a situation where he wasn't the captain, ala Vincent Lecavalier. But I'd be careful about falling in love with his million-dollar size and skill when he doesn't have the heart and balls to match. That's why he's not worth Gomez, Parise and a #1. Ok, but no one said Gomez, Parise, and a #1. Its been combinations of Gomez and Parise with Rafalaski and a #1. Maybe the problem with this question is general is that the board has wildly different opinions on the value Rafalski has to the Devils right now. I don't feel its terribly important that he is a Devil next season, even though I think he is a good player, but I know some people feel the team needs the offensive skills that Rafalski brings to the table. So when people see Rafalski's name in the trade some people don't worry about it and some people immediately say no way. -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 The more I think about it the more I think to myself that there is no possible reason in the world (other than Boston not being willing to do it) not to do a trade of that sort. Think of it this way: Player (age as of today) Elias (28) Thornton (24) Gionta (25) Friesen (28) Parise (19)/Gomez (25) Kozlov (29) Pandolfo (29) Madden (30) Langenbrunner (28) Brylin (30) Hrdina (28) Stevenson (32) With Gomez thats an average age of 28 and with Parise its an average age of 27.5. Its also got two very viable scoring lines which are the youngest part of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 OK, I'll revise what I said....he's not even worth Gomez and the #1 pick. Gomez makes what, $2 million? What does Sensitive Joe make, $5 million? Is Joe Thornton worth $3 million more than Gomez? Hell no! You may think he is, but think again. Lamoriello has to build a real team here, not a fantasy team, and when you waste $5 million on a guy like Joe Thornton, it means you don't have the money to spend in other areas. He's just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Lamoriello deserves a ton of credit.....the guys who have gotten the big payday in recent times -- Elias, Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer -- have been worth every penny. All of them are clutch performers, all of them are durable (except for Stevens this past year) and all are good leaders on this team. Joe Thornton isn't providing for the Bruins NEARLY what the Devils' stars provide for their team. It's not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 What did Alex Mogilny get again? $5.2 million? Gomez is making a million right now only because he's still on his first contract. Thornton is making $5.5 million, yes, but then again he also scored over 100 points last season. Elias scored 91 points and is making $4.7 million. Given that comparison it isn't that unreasonable. I'm not talking about Kieth Tkachuk or something here. Thornton is an excellent player with a reasonable (by NHL standards for his talent) contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 (edited) Mogilny never got that contract from Lou, Vancouver paid a portion of his money, and thank goodness Alex went elsewhere when his contract was up. He's been an injury risk ever since he left and hasn't been worth the $$$. Again, I ask....is Joe Thornton worth $3 million (wait, make it $4 million based on your numbers) more than Scott Gomez? No way in hell. At least Scott Gomez doesn't complain about the officiating to the press, he just keeps playing the game...pretty well, too. Here's a general rule: I don't want guys on my team who threaten to retire becuase the officiating sucks. That's small talk for a guy who's supposedly a big man. Edited May 4, 2004 by Jerrydevil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Jerry you know the deal by now, by and large fans want every big name. Even if they are whiners (and really, anyone think Thornton would LIKE playing here?) and don't show up for the playoffs. ND, Thornton's making $5.5 million at 24. He's gonna want more than that down the road so you know he's going to be a contract issue even before he walks through the door. I don't get how Rafalski's so expendable either...maybe AFTER Nieds is signed long-term but not until that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I'd never heard about Thornton threatening to retire due to officiating, though to be completely honest, I agree with him. The officiating IS terrible and something DOES need to be done about it. In any case, I'm fairly certain that Thornton would keep his mouth shut in New Jersey. The Devils have a way of keeping players in line (unless their name is Jefferson or Danton). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Has, fact is that Thornton solves one of the Devils major problems since Arnott and Holik's departures. They need talented size up the middle on their top lines. As for his contract, he is 24 which, depending on the new CBA, means he doesn't have that much leverage until 31. Thats 7 years. I think we're all under the assumption that Lou will do anything in his power to lock Nieds up longterm. And AGAIN, do I believe any of this will ever happen or is it purely idle speculation? It isn't going to happen because the Bruins would never make that deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Hasan, without a doubt, I am assuming the Devils will sign Niedermayer long term. And if that happens, considering how good Paul Martin looks, it's hard to justify paying Rafalski $3 million a year. NewarkDevil, check out my signature. Broad-shouldered Joe said it back in November. And while he may be right that the officiating stinks, the captain of the team shouldn't be overreacting and spouting excuses in the media. maybe the problem is that the Bruins have made him a captain because he ain't captain material. He's Captain Underpants as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 He's 24 years old. 24 year olds say stupid things. Wayne Gretzky called us a Mickey Mouse franchise and regretted it ever since. Thats the nature of the beast. I bet you can find stupid quotes from a hundred players that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 ND5, you are right. The Devs need some more size and aggressiveness up front. But there are better solutions than paying a big price for Thornton. How about martial arts lessons for Viktor Kozlov? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 He's 24 years old. 24 year olds say stupid things. Wayne Gretzky called us a Mickey Mouse franchise and regretted it ever since. Thats the nature of the beast. I bet you can find stupid quotes from a hundred players that age. Take it from someone who has followed Joe Thornton for his entire NHL career and used to be a big fan of his early on. He's a great regular season player and a below average to mediocre playoff performer who has gotten a free pass in Boston for his disappearing act for the whole time he's been here save for a single Kevin Paul Dupont article in the Boston Globe prior to game 6 or 7 calling Joe out for his unwillingness to fulfill his job duties talking with the press as well as taking the reigns and becoming the player Harry Sinden envisioned he was drafting 8 years ago. When push comes to shove, I don't want anyone traded to the Devils who threatens to shut it all down at 23 years of age instead of sucking it up and fighting through checks the way other players do every night. Joe Thornton has attacked the officials for the last few years now despite having some pretty nasty stickwork incidents he's been suspended for (one spear to Markov's groin was particularly outrageous) as well as some he should have been supsended for. Point is, its hypocrisy at its finest when you have players ranting and raving in the media about clutch and grab hockey ruining the sport only to watch the same players (Roenick and Thornton) do the exact same things they are bastardizing game in and game out. I just don't want to hear it from guys who commit the same errors they are whining about to the press in all seriousness same as I don't want to hear a convicted drunk driver who killed someone lecturing kids on how they best not mix drinking and driving. One point thats entirely missed in this thread so far (and perhaps the biggest point of all to me anyways) is the fact that the Boston Bruins along with GM Mike O'Connell devoted the majority of the last offseason to rapidly accelerating Joe Thornton's on-ice leadership abilities which have been sorely lacking ever since Mike Keenan appointed him the captaincy. The Boston Bruins wanted him to evolve into an outstanding leader this past season with players like Lapointe, O'Donnell, Zamuner, Rolston, etc... all saying they were committed to helping the cause full time. It just didn't happen. Thornton played a soft perimeter game for much of the year avoiding the high danger areas where players like Brian Gionta make a living trespassing and camping out in. Sure he'll put up some good numbers on a line with Murray and Knuble, but he's easy to defend much like Jaromir Jagr is when he gets it in his head that he just doesn't want to pay the price and kick things up another gear or two for the betterment of the team. I personally despise how many fans continually use Thornton's "young age" as a blanket excuse for what he's said and done over the years. This is after all the same player who followed up a first round punchout to the Devils where Madden and Stevens completely negated his play with an assault on an undercover police officer at a bar. Who then followed this up with a subpar season filled with threats to retire early coupled with another horrible postseason performance where his biggest defenders all defended his play with the rib injury. Its too bad more writers here in Boston don't get on him for his inability to become the player he should have been 2 or 3 years ago imo when the postseason starts and all the inflated stats from 82 games go right out the window. No thanks with Joe Thornton. He doesn't have the mentality yet to use his size smartly and still lacks the desire and determination to do things he should have done a long time ago. He needs Sergei Samsonov's mindset to take things to the next level and thats just not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Joe Thornton has way too much pressure on himself to carry a team in Boston. Untill this year Boston was so one dimensional it wasn't funny. Samsonov was injured or didn't have a center and Boston relied 100% on their first line. There is no doubt in my mind Thornton is much much much better the Scott Gomez, I even think he is a better playmaker. The thing with Thronton is the guy is mean and he can score. Stick he and Elias together and I think both would be close to 100 points. In terms of the trade.....I wouldn't go that steep for Thronton. I would offer Gomez, Rafalski and a lower level pick. Thronton is a top 10 forward in the league at a young age and will command alot in return. A better type to trade for would have been a player like Svitov who is big, physical and has loads of offensive potential. I guess Lou would want to cough up Rafalski (Sydor) for a risk like Svitov. One player I really want to get my hands on is Sutherby for Washington. He is projected to be a good two way 2nd line center who is a physical player. Since he was injured this year I bet you could get him for a cheap price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 The "numbers" guys (height, weight, regular-season points) love to gloss over Thornton's behavior and his track record in the playoffs. I'm glad Lou Lamoriello doesn't overlook character. Maybe someday Thornton will get it. Until that day, no thanks. Great post, unthinkable. Don't be afraid to break up the paragraphs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 They'll say these things over and over about Thornton until he shoves it all in their faces, which I think he will eventually. Bottom line is, a player who has a subpar season and gets 73 points is the kind of player you keep. What's Rolston's excuse, by the way? How many years in a row is this guy not going to answer the bell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langsgirl Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Well, I like Thornton .. and his size would be helpful.. at this point anyones size seems it would be helpful although Koslovs didnt do much for us... Anyhow, I have to admit I had a hard time look at Joes face after the broken bone under his eye.. it was crazy.. but its lookin better already!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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