Devilsdude530 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Mark Messier and Scott Stevens - along with Al MacInnis, Ron Francis, Jim Gregory, Dave Fay and Bill Hewitt - were elected to Hockey's Hall of Fame last week, which didn't prompt a debate about who was the better leader. Frankly, it should have. Messier is widely regarded as "Hockey's Greatest Leader" and the NHL's most wonderful ambassadors. But let's look at Messier and Stevens and their records as captains. While Messier won six Stanley Cups, only two were without Gretzky and using him as captain. Let's not forget the last eight years he spent outside of the chase for Lord Stanley's Cup. Stevens captained New Jersey to three. http://www.sportsfanmagazine.com/sfm/articles.html?id=3590 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 http://www.sportsfanmagazine.com/sfm/articles.html?id=3590 Good stuff there. The best was the Pittsburgh insults at the end. I was AT that game at the Meadowlands, and (unfortunately for me this week) I'm a Steelers fan. The worst I heard all day was someone comparing waving the Terrible Towel to waving yellow underwear around, or something not very funny like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestevens Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Finally someone is giving the Devils and Stevens credit, better then just getting credit for being form a place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 http://www.sportsfanmagazine.com/sfm/articles.html?id=3590 I understand that you didn't actually write this article and are simply quoting it, with that being said, this opinion is absolutely ridiculous. To suggest that Stevens is anywhere near the same class as Messier in terms of leadership is insane. Stevens was a good, physical defenseman but he didn't have the same kind of impact on a team that Messier ever did. The article cites that while Messier won 6 cups he only won two without Gretzky. The correct way to say that is that even with the absence of the best player in hockey Messier was able to lead the Oilers to another cup. His first season with the Rangers was an immediate success as they had the best record in the NHL and Messier won his second Hart trophy. The lost in the playoffs came at the hands of the eventual Cup Champion Penguins. If this isn't a leadership impact I don't know what is. You must know this was coming: The Guarantee. He promised the victory and ensured it by scoring a natural hat trick in the 3rd period for a come behind victory in a must win game. This is the kind of feat that turns a man into a legend and is a prime example of true leadership. Case Closed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsdude530 Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 I did write the article dumbass. And I assume you are a dumbass because of your member name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 You must know this was coming: The Guarantee. He promised the victory and ensured it by scoring a natural hat trick in the 3rd period for a come behind victory in a must win game. This is the kind of feat that turns a man into a legend and is a prime example of true leadership.Case Closed Yet another Rangers fan forgets about the other guarantees Messier made. You know, the ones that didn't come true. Messier's famous guarantee reminds me of the story of the woman who predicted the sinking of the Titanic. She was a little old lady who, on the day the doomed luxury liner departed from Southampton, England, boldly stated that the ship would sink. After the Titanic fell to the bottom of the Atlantic ::insert joke about the Rangers and the division standings here::, she was hailed for her forsight in predicting the disaster. Upon further investigation, it turned out she was just a crazy old bag that predicted that every single ship that sailed out of Southampton would sink. After decades and decades of predictions, she finally got one right, and it was a BIG one. Even a crazy old lady will eventually predict a sinking, even a blind squirrell sometimes finds his nut, and even a bald crybaby will eventually deliver on a guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 (edited) Yet another Rangers fan forgets about the other guarantees Messier made. You know, the ones that didn't come true. Edited December 7, 2007 by AveryIsGod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevils783 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier gaurantees a win in a playoff game and its supposed to be a big deal. The thought is laughable. Whats hes supposed to do predict a loss? I mean give me a break the NY media blew that whole thign up to be so much more then it was. But hey Rags need to hold onto those distant what 11 year old memories. It's quite sad acually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier gaurantees a win in a playoff game and its supposed to be a big deal. The thought is laughable. Whats hes supposed to do predict a loss? I mean give me a break the NY media blew that whole thign up to be so much more then it was. But hey Rags need to hold onto those distant what 11 year old memories. It's quite sad acually. You're missing the point there chief. He could have not predicted anything and just gone out and played. Instead he made the statement to the media, not just to his team. Then, when the game was on the line, he took it upon himself to make sure the Rangers got the W. That instills confidence in your team, the sign of a leader, which is how this whole post started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Alright smart guy, back up your words. What guarantee did Messier make in the media about a victory that didn't come true? Show me evidence and I will concede to this argument. You don't remember him guaranteeing to take the Canucks to the playoffs? Or guaranteeing to take the Rangers back to the playoffs in his second stint in NY? The second NY guarantee is pretty well-documented. The Canucks guarantee is a little harder to track down. But rest assured, I'm workin on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier guaranteed that the Rangers would make the playoffs his first year back with the team after his very unsuccessful stint with the Canucks. I do want to say that his first guarantee was an incredible call, especially when guarantees weren't thrown around like they are today. I mean we have no name safeties guaranteeing victory against an undefeated team and fourth string wide receivers saying they will win in the Super Bowl. To go out and score a hat trick made it all the more amazing. You can bash Messier for a ton of other things but don't bash him for his guarantee against the Devils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfsharkalligatorhalfman Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Maybe they are both great captains? Stevens' leadership was truly astonishing, unlike Messier he didn't waste his time blabbing to the media. Instead he just left it all out on the ice. His intensity was legendary both on the ice and in the lockerroom. Asking who was the better captain is essentially asking "are you a rangers fan or a devils fan?" because no true fan of their team would ever think of conceding the other was a superior leader. Especially for something as dumb as "guarenteeing" a win on the back pages of NY tabloids. To above poster: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41...22/ai_n13888229 An article about how Messier guarenteed the Rangers would make the playoffs after returning in 2000. Guess what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier guaranteed that the Rangers would make the playoffs his first year back with the team after his very unsuccessful stint with the Canucks.I do want to say that his first guarantee was an incredible call, especially when guarantees weren't thrown around like they are today. I mean we have no name safeties guaranteeing victory against an undefeated team and fourth string wide receivers saying they will win in the Super Bowl. To go out and score a hat trick made it all the more amazing. You can bash Messier for a ton of other things but don't bash him for his guarantee against the Devils. While I won't agree with your final comment I am a man of my word. He should've stopped guaranteeing things after '94. I must say devilsrule33 I like that you give credit where credit is due. halfsharkalligatorhalfman: Funny enough the Post and Daily News are basically tabloid papers which I can't disagree with, however, they are very widely read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier guaranteed that the Rangers would make the playoffs his first year back with the team after his very unsuccessful stint with the Canucks.I do want to say that his first guarantee was an incredible call, especially when guarantees weren't thrown around like they are today. I mean we have no name safeties guaranteeing victory against an undefeated team and fourth string wide receivers saying they will win in the Super Bowl. To go out and score a hat trick made it all the more amazing. You can bash Messier for a ton of other things but don't bash him for his guarantee against the Devils. OK, I'll concede, his guarantee against the Devils was a hell of a thing. It took guts to make the call, and took skill to follow through. I'll give him that. But for me, the first sentence of the article that halfie linked to says it all: "Mark Messier left unfinished business with the Vancouver Canucks to return to the town that reveres him." Instead of finishing what he started, he went back to a city where his hero status was inflated. A city with a ton of newspapers and medio outlets. A city where he could do no wrong. A city where he could consistently miss the playoffs and would still be praised as a hero, night in, night out, by media source after media source. Yeah, greatest leader of all time my a$$. He only came back to NY to have praised heaped upon him (which happened) and overstayed his welcome in the NHL long enough to climb the NHL's all-time scoring list (which is exactly what he did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I understand that you didn't actually write this article and are simply quoting it, with that being said, this opinion is absolutely ridiculous. To suggest that Stevens is anywhere near the same class as Messier in terms of leadership is insane. Stevens was a good, physical defenseman but he didn't have the same kind of impact on a team that Messier ever did. The article cites that while Messier won 6 cups he only won two without Gretzky. The correct way to say that is that even with the absence of the best player in hockey Messier was able to lead the Oilers to another cup. His first season with the Rangers was an immediate success as they had the best record in the NHL and Messier won his second Hart trophy. The lost in the playoffs came at the hands of the eventual Cup Champion Penguins. If this isn't a leadership impact I don't know what is. You must know this was coming: The Guarantee. He promised the victory and ensured it by scoring a natural hat trick in the 3rd period for a come behind victory in a must win game. This is the kind of feat that turns a man into a legend and is a prime example of true leadership. Case Closed Post of the year. Messier couldn't lead a thirsty Canucks team to a water fountain. The one thing I like about Canucks fans is that they know Messier's mythical leadership is a bunch of bullsh!t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Puddy Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 (edited) One guarantee does not make a great leader. When the effective leader is finished with his work, the people say it happened naturally. - Lao Tse Edited December 7, 2007 by David Puddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Haha, nice Lao Tse quote. All this 'leader' stuff - who knows, really? Messier was a great player, Stevens was a great player. Messier's leadership is overrated, Stevens' underrated. Stevens had the benefit of Martin Brodeur for his later career. If you're a great player and you make a guarantee, it will go forgotten if it doesn't come true. Selection bias, of course. Some clown in the NFL like Freddie Mitchell or Jerramy Stevens might be remembered for foolish guarantees but only because they're remembered for nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadds3424 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 "So what's it like to have the first teenage girl captaining a hockey team?" so true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Leeds Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Messier was asked the day before game 6 if the Rangers were going to win the next night. Like any other athlete he said, "We'll win".................wow, what a leader. Also, why would such a "great" leader as Mark Messier take credit for a cup clinching goal when it was scored by Brian Noonan? Except for Graves, his toady sycophant and lover, the rest of his teammates hated him. That was told to a Ranger fan friend of mine by Steve Larmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langs15 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I understand that you didn't actually write this article and are simply quoting it, with that being said, this opinion is absolutely ridiculous. To suggest that Stevens is anywhere near the same class as Messier in terms of leadership is insane. Stevens was a good, physical defenseman but he didn't have the same kind of impact on a team that Messier ever did. The only place Messier lead the Rag$ into was the ground, gotta love the 7 consecutive seasons of not even making it into the playoffs. He had one great year with the Rangers and everyone says he's the best. He isn't and never will be. Get over it and stop sucking his pecker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHLDevils43 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 You don't need to look any further than the teams to see the difference in these 2 captains. They were both incredible leaders... and like the Rangers, Messier insists on being in the spotlight - even to this day. Like the Devils, Stevens was and is all about the team. He was never one to strive to be in the spotlight. Rumor has it he doesn't even want to make a speech tonight at his HHOF celebration. Imagine Messier turning down the chance to make a speech... it would never happen. ... and here's a guarantee for you, Stevens isn't going to insist on putting on his old uniform and skating around with the Stanley Cup before his ceremony. Messier made a big deal about himself so he gets more attention. Stevens was quietly successful and is very underrated... and that's the way he would want it to be. Everyone can choose which style of leader fits them best. For me, I'll stick with Stevens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devs4LIFE Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 The article cites that while Messier won 6 cups he only won two without Gretzky. The correct way to say that is that even with the absence of the best player in hockey Messier was able to lead the Oilers to another cup. Wasn't gretzky on the rags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Wasn't gretzky on the rags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Gretzky was on the Rangers, at the very end of his career. I did mention the Oilers when saying Mess won a Cup without him.You really expect two guys pushing 40 to make a legit run at the cup without support? And to anyone bringing up the Stevens doesn't even want to make a speech argument, give me a break. Ok I get it he's a quiet leader. He's the exception to the norm of the society at large. Can all of you honestly say that, given the opportunity, you wouldn't want to talk about your achivements in front of people who care about them? I'm pretty sure you all do this on a small scale. It's why you tell your friends about the hot girl you took home last night, or the fact that you aced the Bar Exam, or the 4 touchdowns you scored in a single game (a la Al Bundy). The fact is people enjoy being honored, it's self validation. Having an ego about yourself (not being egotistical, there's a difference) isn't a bad thing. It gives you confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveryIsGay Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 nope, i dont brag about the girl, nor about my gpa or what i may or may not have done in sports, and frankly dont feel i need to either to help my confidence. i love how stevens lead this team. that he really cared about winning (ask friesen after that ot loss at detroit back in 02-03) and not personal ego or stats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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