Should fighting be banned?

[Cowutopia]

Another one of these?

Fighting used to mean a lot more

Edited January 6, 2009 by Cowutopia

[Triumph]

True, but didn't the Red Wings add Darren McCarty to the lineup right before the playoffs? It's not like they added him for his goal scoring prowess. One of the values of having fighting in the game is that the mere presence of someone who is a "fighter" will help create room for your skill players.

And McCarty has barely played this year, the Wings haven't replaced him, they've had 5 fighting majors all season (as of the winter classic), and they're one of the leading teams in scoring. Certainly tough, physical players buy a team time and space, but if fighting really had an offensive benefit, you'd see every team employing at least one guy who can throw down consistently. They don't and they don't.

Back to McCarty - he had exactly 1 fighting major in the playoffs. According to NHL.com, there were 15 major penalties handed out in last year's playoffs. Why is it that fighting diminshes right when you'd think the most cheap shotting/hitting would be going on, in the NHL playoffs? Because fighting is a sideshow.

Personally, I believe that if fighting was made illegal, we'd see more Sean Averys running around in the NHL. Pests are OK, but they all occasionally need to be punched repeatedly in the face.

And? Sean Avery hasn't been suspended for any illegal hits he's made, in my memory. He plays with a gritty edge, certainly does a lot of things that are not legal, and is willing to drop the gloves from time to time. He's also consistently one of the most penalized players in the league in terms of minor penalties, averaging something like 2 minor penalties every 3 games. Even if we assume that 1/3rd of those minor penalties are coincidental, that's around 40 minor penalties he's taking per full season, which is costing his team something between 6 and 10 goals total. Let him run around, I say.

Look, I like fighting, but let's not argue about its value to the game - it's minimal. There's a few times where a fight might make a guy back down from doing something, and there's a few times where a guy has to answer for something through a fight, but a lot of the scraps clarkson and rupp get into are superfluous and we could do without them - we sure seem to in the playoffs.

[theamazingtiny]

Look, I like fighting, but let's not argue about its value to the game - it's minimal. There's a few times where a fight might make a guy back down from doing something, and there's a few times where a guy has to answer for something through a fight, but a lot of the scraps clarkson and rupp get into are superfluous and we could do without them - we sure seem to in the playoffs.

So true, so true. All this, "It allows the players to police the game". Why is that needed? No other sport leaves it up to the players for good reason. Wouldn't you rather see a pest like Avery lose the game instead of lose a meaningless fight?

[mikeford]

Back to McCarty - he had exactly 1 fighting major in the playoffs. According to NHL.com, there were 15 major penalties handed out in last year's playoffs. Why is it that fighting diminshes right when you'd think the most cheap shotting/hitting would be going on, in the NHL playoffs? Because fighting is a sideshow.

Fights in the playoffs have more to do with what teams make it and go further than anything else. I also think the instigator rule plays a significant part in this.

So, here we have 2008 postseason post-lockout with instigator: 15 fights

and here we have 2004 postseason pre-lockout without instiagor: 32

These numbers are cherry picked, admittedly. The year of the 2nd Devils Cup run, there was 14 fights (6 of them Devils ) and the season before last (the Ducks cup win) there was 26 fights. The year before, 27.

So yeah. Last year had a drop. And in 2000-01 there was a drop. But in other years, you see a lot of fights. So really your conclusion based on 1 year of data is not accurate.

[Triumph]

Fights in the playoffs have more to do with what teams make it and go further than anything else. I also think the instigator rule plays a significant part in this.

So, here we have 2008 postseason post-lockout with instigator: 15 fights

and here we have 2004 postseason pre-lockout without instiagor: 32

These numbers are cherry picked, admittedly. The year of the 2nd Devils Cup run, there was 14 fights (6 of them Devils ) and the season before last (the Ducks cup win) there was 26 fights. The year before, 27.

So yeah. Last year had a drop. And in 2000-01 there was a drop. But in other years, you see a lot of fights. So really your conclusion based on 1 year of data is not accurate.

i didn't intentionally cherry pick, but 32 is still well below the NHL regular season average.

[mikeford]

i didn't intentionally cherry pick, but 32 is still well below the NHL regular season average.

Season average for what? an entire 82 game season?

You have to keep in mind how many games are played in the playoffs from year to year too. If there is more sweeps, that will cut down on fights due to sheer lack of games.

Lets say all 16 teams in the NHL playoffs play the maximum amount of games (for the sake of argument). Thats a maximum of 105 games played. The NHL season is 82 games for 1 team. The NHL season is 2460 games long.

So, give me some specific numbers. Generalizations help nothing.

For the record, 6 NHL teams had less than 32 fights last season for the 82 game season.

[Triumph]

Season average for what? an entire 82 game season?

You have to keep in mind how many games are played in the playoffs from year to year too. If there is more sweeps, that will cut down on fights due to sheer lack of games.

Lets say all 16 teams in the NHL playoffs play the maximum amount of games (for the sake of argument). Thats a maximum of 105 games played. The NHL season is 82 games for 1 team. The NHL season is 2460 games long.

So, give me some specific numbers. Generalizations help nothing.

For the record, 6 NHL teams had less than 32 fights last season for the 82 game season.

first of all, the instigator penalty was around in 2004, so i'm not sure what point you are making with your previous post. the instigator was changed slightly to add something about the last 5 minutes of a game possibly resulting in suspensions but beyond that has not been altered.

secondly, you can't compare 'total fighting majors' across teams and then sort by teams, because one will be double the other. if there are 32 fighting majors, there are 16 fights. huge difference. anyway, there were 89 playoff games in 2003-04. sure sounds like it's at least half the number of fights.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Triumph

[Chorske17]

Given that the opponent ripped the helmet off, that is like saying "well that bank guard wouldn't have died from a bullet to the heart if he had have been wearing the bulletproof vest the robber took off him".

Amazing the difference a day makes. Yesterday it was all "RIP Don Sanderson". Today it is "Don Sanderson would be alive today if he were not such an idiot not wearing his helmet tightly enough".

I never said RIP Don Sanderson and I certainly don't mean any illwill towards his death, family, or friends. However, HE CHOOSE to fight and there consequences that could happen. I choose to sometimes talk on my cellular phone while in drive in PA. Is it legal, yes, but could I crash and die from being stupid, yup.

Don do you know a guy by the name of Kenny Mace?

[Random Poster]

Don do you know a guy by the name of Kenny Mace?

LMAO!!! I figured it out, Matt. It's a paisley shorts thing.

[DaneykoIsGod]

And McCarty has barely played this year, the Wings haven't replaced him, they've had 5 fighting majors all season (as of the winter classic), and they're one of the leading teams in scoring. Certainly tough, physical players buy a team time and space, but if fighting really had an offensive benefit, you'd see every team employing at least one guy who can throw down consistently. They don't and they don't.

Back to McCarty - he had exactly 1 fighting major in the playoffs. According to NHL.com, there were 15 major penalties handed out in last year's playoffs. Why is it that fighting diminshes right when you'd think the most cheap shotting/hitting would be going on, in the NHL playoffs? Because fighting is a sideshow.

You skipped over where I said that the mere presence of a fighter can be a benefit. Just the knowledge that you'll likely get punched in the face for running a skill guy is a pretty strong deterrent. Punches to the face suck. If I knew there was a possibility that me doing something could result in getting clocked, I probably wouldn't do that thing.

Also, the difference with the Wings is that they're ridiculously talented. They don't need a fighter, and they've proven this. They're stacked with enough skill to get it done on skill alone. (Yet they still added McCarty anyway, but I digress.) But the other 29 teams lack the kind of depth the Wings have. They need something else. Fighting can be an effective tool. Other things, like a physical checking game or a responsible defensive game, can be X-factors for these teams too. We saw this last week when Montreal came to town. We took an early lead, then at 16:30 of the first period the Habs tied it. Five seconds later, David Clarkson fights Tom Kostopoulos. Less than two minutes later we take the lead back and never give it up. Fights can pump a team up. Players and coaches obviously believe it, and that's why scenarios like the Devils/Habs one actually occur. The fact that the players on the ice and the guys behind the benches believe in it is enough for me to believe in it.

And? Sean Avery hasn't been suspended for any illegal hits he's made, in my memory. He plays with a gritty edge, certainly does a lot of things that are not legal, and is willing to drop the gloves from time to time. He's also consistently one of the most penalized players in the league in terms of minor penalties, averaging something like 2 minor penalties every 3 games. Even if we assume that 1/3rd of those minor penalties are coincidental, that's around 40 minor penalties he's taking per full season, which is costing his team something between 6 and 10 goals total. Let him run around, I say.

Yeah, but, he's a d!ck.

Look, I like fighting, but let's not argue about its value to the game - it's minimal. There's a few times where a fight might make a guy back down from doing something, and there's a few times where a guy has to answer for something through a fight,

Like when Cam took his medicine for his hit on Kaberle. I bet there were a lot of Leafs fans who were more satisfied that that than they were with the NHL's suspension on ol' Cammer.

but a lot of the scraps clarkson and rupp get into are superfluous and we could do without them - we sure seem to in the playoffs.

I agree with most of what you say. And when I'm making my arguments it probably looks like I'm taking the benefits of fighting and blowing them way out of proportion. I don't mean to do that. I like fights and think they make the game better. They might not be necessary, but it's hard to say for certain without having a full NHL season where fighting isn't allowed. And that ain't gonna happen. Hopefully.

[RockingTheRed81]

I don't understand why they want to take fighting out of hockey. Fighting is part of the game and it is one of the most entertianing things about it. Without fighting what would Clarkson and Rupp do? hahaha

[nmigliore]

Simple: NO.

[mouse]

I agree that pure fighters are obsolete/borderline useless. That said, guys like Brashear, Neil, and even Clarkson, who can contribute in other ways, either scoring or checking, are useful. Without fighting, there isn't enough of a deterrent for worse things like boarding. There is much more danger from going into the boards headfirst than taking punches while you brace yourself. I remember a couple years ago, I was at a game against the Thrashers where Parise got boarded hard by Braydon Coburn. A little later, Rupp dropped Coburn. You can make the case that Rupp and Clarkie fight too much (I enjoy fighting, but I see your point), but having these guys on the roster, ready to drop the gloves, keeps Parise from getting boarded regularly. I'm not defending Cam, he was fun to watch, but served no purpose, but I love having a couple of fearless middleweights on the roster. Gretzky was always thankful to McSorley for making it tougher to take dirty hits on him -- a 2 minute major isn't going to deter a goon from trying to take a skill guy off his game, and one dirty hit can end a career. Idiots like Avery may be willing to risk a suspension for the right victim, but they're going to think twice about those hits if they has to drop the gloves afterwards.

[95Crash]

I am a little late to this thread, so I don't know if anyone posted this already. If so, just disregard it. But Georges Laraque recently had been writing a blog on Sportsnet.ca. For his final column, he took on the subject of fighting in the NHL. I thought the piece was very well written. Here are just a few snippets:

... fighting is not just the toughest job in hockey, but in all professional sports. Fighting is not easy, not easy physically nor mentally. During a fight, you pretty much fight for your life. ...

... A lot of guys are lucky they weren't in the league 15 years ago. In those days, everyone was tough, everyone fought, and everyone was held accountable. Now, there's no policing, players are getting slashed in the face, guys are getting elbowed and hit in the head, and more and more guys are getting hit from behind. ...

... Let's do an experiment and take [the instigator rule] out for a year and see how many fewer cheap shots we would see. Of course, there would be more fights but hey, isn't fighting popular? Who are the most loved players of every team in general? Fighters! We want to grow the game; fighting would certainly help. ...

... My theory was always that the fan who worked 9 to 5, who worked his ass off and got dirty at work, identified more with a fighter because just like them we don't have it easy and have to get dirty too. Interesting theory, huh? And in blue-collar towns, it's definitely the case! ...

... So many teams and many examples have happened in the past where teams had been suffering because they didn't have a tough guy and if some of you are still not convinced and still think I don't know what I'm talking about, ask the guys who sweat and play the game. Ask them how big of a difference they see when they play on a team that has a heavyweight compared to a team that does not have one. You'll get your response there and that from quite elite players! ...

He closes the piece by naming who he thinks are the best fighters in the league today.

Complete Laraque Article

[Devil Dan 56]

I am a little late to this thread, so I don't know if anyone posted this already. If so, just disregard it. But Georges Laraque recently had been writing a blog on Sportsnet.ca. For his final column, he took on the subject of fighting in the NHL. I thought the piece was very well written. Here are just a few snippets:

He closes the piece by naming who he thinks are the best fighters in the league today.

Complete Laraque Article

Some great points by Laraque in there.

Someone mentioned Detroit winning the cup without fighters last year. Wasn't Anaheim one of the fighting-est (?) teams in the NHL when they won in 2007?

[DaneykoIsGod]

And in the West, the toughest guy is Derek Boogaard and the toughest pound for pound is hands down Cam Janssen.

Ah, makes me miss Cammer even more.

Thanks for sharing that link, 95Crash!