Is Larsson Finished?

[Triumph]

Niederreiter was not traded for a song - you might think Cal Clutterbuck is bad, and indeed he's not that good, but he's the kind of thing teams value.  Either way, an injury makes this silly, unless they use Harrold over Larsson, in which case they should just be moving him.

[devilsrule33]

Niederreiter was not traded for a song - you might think Cal Clutterbuck is bad, and indeed he's not that good, but he's the kind of thing teams value.  Either way, an injury makes this silly, unless they use Harrold over Larsson, in which case they should just be moving him.

 

That's probably what would happen...I mean, after a "bad" game, it would be Harrold time.

[Triumph]

That's probably what would happen...I mean, after a "bad" game, it would be Harrold time.

 

I mean, if you don't think Larsson had some bad games to start out last year, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[devilsrule33]

I mean, if you don't think Larsson had some bad games to start out last year, I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

He absolutely did. He righted the ship though, and after the injury, he never got a good shot again. He also was't terrible in the 1 game he played this year. Gelinas has had much much worse games so far.

 

Anyway, if someone got hurt, it would be beneficial for the future of the organization for Lou to step in and tell Deboer to just play the damn kid over Harrold.

Edited October 27, 2014 by devilsrule33

[Daniel]

Niederreiter was not traded for a song - you might think Cal Clutterbuck is bad, and indeed he's not that good, but he's the kind of thing teams value. Either way, an injury makes this silly, unless they use Harrold over Larsson, in which case they should just be moving him.

Not quite sure I follow. Neiedereitter is a good player who is very young, Clutterbuck is not that good. The Isles might have thought Niedereitter wasn't that good, but what difference does it make?

Kind of like if we traded Larsson for a 10 to 15 goal player and Larsson turned into that first pairing defenseman. I mean, I understand the idea that Larsson wouldn't be that with us anyway, but it still doesn't change that we traded a valuable asset for not much.

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Edited October 27, 2014 by Daniel

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Thats precisely it and why im hard on Deboer about that. It's QUITE OBVIOUS that Larsson's personality needs some trust and adjustments from Deboer for him to success and it would be worth it. There's all kinds of personalities in life and sports and you can't use the same approach with everyone.

 

I promised myself not to bring up this subject again but, what we see in NJ is our GM and our coaches pretty much saying to the players "THIS is the way we do things, if you don't do things our way it's not gonna fly, its make or break. Lou and Deboer simply don't want to adjust their way even though the outcome suffers from it. Incredibly stubborn. 

 

It's OBVIOUS Larsson is stressed as fvck to make mistakes cause he knows he'll pay for it hard. I coached a lot and i knew i had to adjust my way of dealing with some players cause it would have drag them down. Obviously Deboer is a NHL so he should know that.

 

In fairness, trying to compare your level of coaching to an NHL-level coaching position isn't really valid.  So many more variables to deal with in the NHL.

 

One constant in your approach is that the Devils should always be catering to the players' needs, above everything else (or at least it seems this way).  I don't agree with that.  Sometimes it can seem like the deck is (unfairly) stacked against Larsson, but it's not like he's completely blameless either.  It's a little like the Parise situation, from the "perfect storm" standpoint.  Guys who probably weren't expected to motor past him on the depth chart have.  He's gotten hurt.  Though the Devils did lose Mark Fayne in FA, they signed Andy Greene long-term, and re-signed Zids.  Salvador is still here (as much as we hate that, Lou did at least jettison Volchenkov, who had more time remaining), but at least it looks like his minutes are starting to decrease. 

 

Like Tri has alluded to many times...Larsson WILL get another opportunity.  Gelinas is shaky enough in his own end that it's hard to think he's going to be lock to be an every-game player unless he starts making dramatic improvements.  Sal will get hurt at some point, and even if he doesn't, he'll likely play poorly enough to start getting healthy scratches...not saying Larsson is the ideal replacement for what Salvador is supposed to bring, but strictly from a bodies standpoint, a chance will be there for Larsson to play. 

[redruM]

I mean, if you don't think Larsson had some bad games to start out last year, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Larsoon lost his spot while injured, not for playing prroly, he started the season out playing OK, every player on the Devils had bad games last year...

[SterioDesign]

In fairness, trying to compare your level of coaching to an NHL-level coaching position isn't really valid.  So many more variables to deal with in the NHL.

 

One constant in your approach is that the Devils should always be catering to the players' needs, above everything else (or at least it seems this way).  I don't agree with that.  Sometimes it can seem like the deck is (unfairly) stacked against Larsson, but it's not like he's completely blameless either.  It's a little like the Parise situation, from the "perfect storm" standpoint.  Guys who probably weren't expected to motor past him on the depth chart have.  He's gotten hurt.  Though the Devils did lose Mark Fayne in FA, they signed Andy Greene long-term, and re-signed Zids.  Salvador is still here (as much as we hate that, Lou did at least jettison Volchenkov, who had more time remaining), but at least it looks like his minutes are starting to decrease. 

 

Like Tri has alluded to many times...Larsson WILL get another opportunity.  Gelinas is shaky enough in his own end that it's hard to think he's going to be lock to be an every-game player unless he starts making dramatic improvements.  Sal will get hurt at some point, and even if he doesn't, he'll likely play poorly enough to start getting healthy scratches...not saying Larsson is the ideal replacement for what Salvador is supposed to bring, but strictly from a bodies standpoint, a chance will be there for Larsson to play. 

 

i never said they should "always" do anything. Never said that. What i'm saying is that with anything, coaches, teachers etc etc there's kids, players or wtv that you'll have to adjust your way to get the best out of them. You know those coaches that people say they can get the best out of you? Well that's cause they can adjust and know how to treat you and get the best results. With Deboer it's seems like it's "You do things my way and if you can't crack it you'll be sitting". That's what im saying and i really don't think it's an unfair statement.

 

Again that's not saying you should treat all players like princess either of course, but a guy like Larsson who's been a top pick that the team put a lot of hope in. They should at least try to do the necessary steps not to screw his development, the way they are handling him is really not ideal.

 

also of course i know you can't compare coaching to NHL level and amateur coaching im not dumb. But one thing will never change, you have to adjust to some players to get the best out of them.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

The problem is where does Larsson play?  He definitely doesn't deserve to be playing over Merrill and Severson right now.  Gelinas' potential for offense means he's going to get a longer leash, in spite of his often rough own-end play (but as Larsson has already gotten into the lineup at Gelinas' expense, this could very well happen again).  Greene and Zids are trusted vets, though with Zids' age there will be some level of concern.  We know the deal with Sal, who will play himself out of the lineup within 4-6 weeks at this rate, if not sooner. 

 

When you say "necessary steps not to screw his development", what specifically should the Devils do?   

Edited October 27, 2014 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

The Devils aren't in the business of developing Larsson - that is not the only goal they have, nor should it be.  They are in the business of putting out the best team to win.  It just so happens that 3 guys have zoomed past Larsson on the depth chart.  So yeah, it'd be nice if they weren't 'screwing his development', but on the other hand if he's just going to make the same mistakes he's been making for the last 3 years, it's tough to put a ton of trust in him.

 

Gelinas followed up what I felt was his worst game with probably his best game - it's going to be hard to sit him.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Triumph

[Pepperkorn]

I think everyone is being rash personally.  But what do I know.

 

I do know it's sometimes best to rip the band aid off and let the flaws show - glad no one is there to save anyone's ass personally.  I love full exposure because it's the only way to fix things.

 

Larsson needs to be playing and that's a fact.  Benching him does no one any favors.  Where he plays, that's not under my control.  I can't even get all vexed about it.  He plays like a guy given no direction.  He needs to be given a simple role and be allowed to grow into it.  That doesn't seem to be happening.  He's a HUGE investment  - and it's going to waste.  He's not being developed with care - he's being treated like a cog not living up to his end of the bargain.  I think that's ridiculous.  You can SAY that but it's pointless if never given a chance.  Some guys thrive on praise not abuse. 

 

DeBoer is just an a$$hole who knows only what he knows.  He cannot stretch his mind past a certain point.  He seems to get all fvckin' smug about that too -- like he wins if he's deliberately obtuse?  No dumbass you don't.  What he has in his head as providing value is just not right.  I dont have the details because I dont know him. He presents a face and clearly it's not the real one. he never allows himself a search - seeking is weak in his brain.  He needs to get some freakin' confidence and trust others - not someone he's decided has the trust-worthy traits like a gionta -- that's the thing -- hes not trusting the RIGHT combo -- and he's to scared to mess with his belief system.  DUDE!  THAT IS WHAT"S FLAWED YOU STUPID fvckER __ SO YOU JUST KEEP LOSING ^&A(_Q)%#^&*)OYQRT^(OYPT*OFI

]

 

Why do I even get myself started? 

[Pepperkorn]

The Devils aren't in the business of developing Larsson - that is not the only goal they have, nor should it be.  They are in the business of putting out the best team to win.  It just so happens that 3 guys have zoomed past Larsson on the depth chart.  So yeah, it'd be nice if they weren't 'screwing his development', but on the other hand if he's just going to make the same mistakes he's been making for the last 3 years, it's tough to put a ton of trust in him.

 

Gelinas followed up what I felt was his worst game with probably his best game - it's going to be hard to sit him.

 Then you owe it to him to send him down not sit his ass on the bench.  He's not going to magically turn into what the team needs watching from the sidelines. 

 

I dont mind this reasoning - I'd even agre with it but for one thing --  but it's the kind of sh!tass justification DeBoer is filling his ballsack with --- I say that instead of head not to be crude but to say the truth.  This sh!t is not his logic -- it's his FAKE CONFIDENCE.  It's his LOSING STRATEGY.  It's not real - it's his bluster and he's gt to GOT TO face his truth if this team is going to grow or if Lou is going to find out what the team needs to grow.  It's not the truth - it's lawyerly spin - and really dangerous to the development of the team, nto just individual players.  That is my personal opinion given all of DeBoer's choices.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I think everyone is being rash personally.  But what do I know.

 

I do know it's sometimes best to rip the band aid off and let the flaws show - glad no one is there to save anyone's ass personally.  I love full exposure because it's the only way to fix things.

 

Larsson needs to be playing and that's a fact.  Benching him does no one any favors.  Where he plays, that's not under my control.  I can't even get all vexed about it.  He plays like a guy given no direction.  He needs to be given a simple role and be allowed to grow into it.  That doesn't seem to be happening.  He's a HUGE investment  - and it's going to waste.  He's not being developed with care - he's being treated like a cog not living up to his end of the bargain.  I think that's ridiculous.  You can SAY that but it's pointless if never given a chance.  Some guys thrive on praise not abuse. 

 

DeBoer is just an a$$hole who knows only what he knows.  He cannot stretch his mind past a certain point.  He seems to get all fvckin' smug about that too -- like he wins if he's deliberately obtuse?  No dumbass you don't.  What he has in his head as providing value is just not right.  I dont have the details because I dont know him. He presents a face and clearly it's not the real one. he never allows himself a search - seeking is weak in his brain.  He needs to get some freakin' confidence and trust others - not someone he's decided has the trust-worthy traits like a gionta -- that's the thing -- hes not trusting the RIGHT combo -- and he's to scared to mess with his belief system.  DUDE!  THAT IS WHAT"S FLAWED YOU STUPID fvckER __ SO YOU JUST KEEP LOSING ^&A(_Q)%#^&*)OYQRT^(OYPT*OFI

]

 

Why do I even get myself started? 

 

OK, so who should sit for Larsson?  Tri said it perfectly...guys have leapt past him on the depth chart.  Sucks for him, but now he's going to have to wait for an injury or someone to falter.  Not the first guy that that's happened to. 

 

re:  sending him down, problem is I think he can get claimed now by someone else if the Devils go that route.

 

http://www.inlouwetrust.com/2014/7/6/5872947/the-new-jersey-devils-who-are-and-are-not-waiver-exempt-for-2014-15

Edited October 27, 2014 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

If Larsson had sat for the whole season so far, they could probably send him down for a few days on a conditioning stint if they wanted to (and indeed they probably can anyway).  The roster's only at 22 so they could pull up another defenseman if they wanted to.  Doesn't make much sense with a road trip coming up though.

[Pepperkorn]

Rockies - So you hoard your investment you'll never use?  That's not good karma and it sucks for morale.

 

If you can't sen dhim down - You don't throw him into the fire and just randomly "give him minutes"  You give him a role and it's got to be a small role where he can start to see again.  Personally I think you give him a stay at home role.  You don't give him major minutes but you consistently give him a few minutes every game.  You're working in practice as well -- and you do find a way to give him some special attention. He's not a little brother or someone's son you're doing a favor.  He's your fvcking HUGE draft pick  - YOU'RE-- nice  I'm a amoron... Your  YOUR ACTIONS (not his) are the ONLY PLACE that that gets special consideration.  You do not ask more of him because you took the fvcking chance.  YOU TOOK THE CHANCE -- YOU fvck IT UP NOT THE PLAYER. 

 

So --- I feel like he needs to buy into staying at home just as a starting point so he can see again. That's not fvcking with some bullsh!t system someone thinks he;s imple,enting -- that's not old school or somethign to generate conflict within the team.  It's just a starting place for a players developent that will not really be hurting the overall picture -- unless you are SO fvckED UP you cannot spare one minute on ice each game.  So Stay-at-home D in low pressure minutes - pretend he's Dano on the verge or retirment. 

 

I may be totally wrong -- but that's a role DeBoer doesn't understand and thus Tommy can hopefully have more control with.  You need some buy in from the team to cover his ass and give him some space.  That's much easier to get on a winning team -- but DeBoer doesn't have the WINNING thing down yet     Larsson needs to understand the contribution he's making defending and not feel like he's got to compete with Gelinas Severeson Merrill in that all-around way.  That's too much ground for a a guy already in a high pressure situation to cover.  This can be done -- it just requires a clear head and calm patient team.  Or trade him -- I hate that idea because I think you do have a responsibility to a player you draft.  If you've got any kind of integrity at any rate.  If it's about hockey at any rate.  If you're a winner at any rate.    I dont wan thim to be a bust and I certainly dont want another time to take the time to make him the star he is probably capable of being.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Pepperkorn