Derek21 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Lundmark's done nothing in the 17 games. That's the only thing I agree on. He has to start finishing his chances. That goes for any prospect. But here's why I can't stand the organization. It's because of their "double standard" when it comes to mistreatment of prospects. When do they ever punish a Dvorak, Kasparaitis or god forbid a Messier (see Brooks' column)? NEVER. So, who's getting it done for the Rangers when they got a paltry 2.45 goals/gm? No one. Holik's 11 pts in 23 games with a -4? LOL... are we kidding? Lindros' 24-25 pts the whole season? Even Nedved's 26-28 pts was mostly with Bure. How come you never see the team penalize it's overpaid stars? It's always them mismanaging and making examples out of prospects after a 2-3 game stint. Whatever happened to Kloucek being the savior of the '01-02 season? I guess they forgot that he came back from an ACL and MCL tear against the Thrashers in April 2001. They mismanaged him. They are doing it again with Lundmark and Fata. Here's a fact you can deny: "When it comes to developing prospects, the New York Rangers are the worst." So, when I start seeing vets get punished, then I'll ease up. But it's typical double standard. Rationalize that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Rico Fata? Fata has no finish and will end up being another Paul Ranheim. He's not a prospect, what he is is essentially what he will be, and the Rangers are right for doing whatever they feel like with him..his future will not make or break the Rangers organization. His upside is, at best, a third liner, and he may remain a 4th liner his whole career. The reason the Rangers pay their players so much money is because they should be past accountability. Holik? He's earned his stripes. Same with Kaspar. Why Dvorak hasn't been dealt yet is a mystery, but probably because no one wants him. Lindros was benched earlier this year. That's actually a step in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 How come you never see the team penalize it's overpaid stars? Answer: The organization has a relatively low opinion of its fan base. For the past five years all I have heard is that NY will not stand for a rebuilding program. Really? What exactly has the past five and a half years been? How many teams in the NHL have had as bad a record during this period? The fact is that NY fans will always wait for their teams. The Mets (1962-1969, 1975-1984 and 1992-1999)? The Jets(Forever except 1969)? The Giants (Anyone remember 17 years of bad football)? The Knicks (for most of the 80's)? The fact is that New York will always support their teams in good and bad times. How this little fact escapes the Rangers ownership is beyond me. Its an excuse that has gotten too old too fast. If the Rangers had started to seriously rebuild five years ago they would likely be poised for an extended run as a legitimate contender for the next several years. What exactly does the future hold for this team. Leetch will be gone soon, Richter may already be gone, Lindros playing inconsistent, Bure getting more fragile, etc, etc... For the Devils we have to replace several important pieces in Stevens and Dano sometime during the next two years. But does anyone feel that White isn't up to the task. Gionta looks like a keeper. Aside from injury goaltending should be set for the next 6-8 years. Some consistent scoring is our big worry and that could be settled quickly if the team feels the need. That is the difference in these two teams. The Devils know that have to win in order to keep fans, the Rangers believe that they just have to have BIG NAMES on the ice. If they win great, but its not that critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#10 Duguay Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Lindros was benched earlier this year. That's actually a step in the right direction. PurpleK obviously leaves this out cause it doesn't support his argument. He also leaves out that Kasparaitus was demoted to the third pair earlier this season cause he was so awful. The only reason Kaspar gets a lot of ice now is because all their defensemen are hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 PurpleKovy, you seem pretty upset with the Rangers. Might I suggest that you root for another team? The Devils perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 If the Rangers had started to seriously rebuild five years ago they would likely be poised for an extended run as a legitimate contender for the next several years. Actually, that isn't quite true. The Rangers did attempt a real rebuild in the 1999 draft. Malhotra, Brendl and Lundmark were supposed to be the cornerstones of the future Rangers. Unfortunately, they all turned out to be duds. That's the risk of relying solely on the draft and why you will never see a "true rebuild" by any team with money to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Devil Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 PurpleKovy, you seem pretty upset with the Rangers. Might I suggest that you root for another team? The Devils perhaps. And the Rangers current performance is supposed to have him doing cartwheels? People might have some issues with Derek, (some warranted) but methinks you're barking up the wrong tree if you're questioning his loyality to that franchise. If anything, the franchise owes fans like Derek (and yourself and Doogs, and bg) more than what they're providing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nieda Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 And the Rangers current performance is supposed to have him doing cartwheels? People might have some issues with Derek, (some warranted) but methinks you're barking up the wrong tree if you're questioning his loyality to that franchise. If anything, the franchise owes fans like Derek (and yourself and Doogs, and bg) more than what they're providing. eeeeeeeeeeeeeexactly!!! Derek is probably one of the most loyal rags fans ive ever met, other ranger fans i know have bailed by now, but he (and the other ones too) choose to stick by even when things are looking the grimmest. even tho your team may suck (no offense ) beyond all recognition, derek chooses to stick by, hes critical of them, but only because he cares. so you can choose to believe derek is a devils fan or a rags fan, but I know better, plus, he never shuts up about 'em!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Derek doesn't seem to understand much about the Rangers. Going back to the 1980s, the Rangers were very good at drafting and developing their prospects. Guys like Vanbeisbrouck, Richter, Leetch, James Patrick, etc. However, they didn't win a Cup. Smith gutted the team of prospects in order to build the Cup team and I'm glad he did. He then tried to cash in on Messier as long as he could, and he kept the Rangers a contender for the next 3 seasons. Hindsight says he failed but I'm sure 2 or 3 more Cups would have been nice. Smith then tried to jump start the Rangers recovery by trading up in the 1999 draft hoping to land a superstar. It eventually did, when Sather traded for Lindros. Anyway, this period of the last 5 years was the payment for the 1994 Cup. Sather has begun to rebuild the farm system and there are finally some real prospects/kids in the organization. But to blame Sather for Lundmark is just stupid. Lundmark hasn't been mishandled and there is no double-standard. Lundmark just isn't that good. Sather has dramatically improved the Rangers in his 2+ years. He has finally divested himself of the underachieving overpaid UFAs that Smith brought in. And I won't knock Sather for a bunch of freak injuries to Holik, Bure, Leetch and Richter. No real fan would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 So, they benched Lindros. Big freaking deal . When have they ever scratched a regular and made an example of an overpaid $tiff? When they scratch Dvorak and play Lundmark, I will do cartwheels like one poster said. When Kasparminus is not playing one night for a hungry defenseman from Hartford, I will smile. Doogs, you make every excuse in the book. Tri, Fata's a regular as much as Jiri Bicek. The same guy you were so quick to judge. Gritty 3rd liners do count when it comes to building teams. C, get lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Derek, not surprising that you still have no idea what you are talking about. Who are you going to bring up to play for Kasparaitis? Bouchard and Lintner are already playing. Fata was waived by Calgary because he could only do one thing well and that's skate. Which is one more NHL skill than Lundmark possesses. Dvorak for all his shortcomings this season still brings more to the ice than Lundmark. And it's tough to bench regulars when injuries already have them using 5 minor league players. Who are you going to bring up to fill in for the benched Lindros, an ECHL player? The Rangers don't owe Derek (or any of us) anything. He needs to adjust his unrealistic expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueNJ97 Posted January 3, 2003 Author Share Posted January 3, 2003 You may not believe this, but when I started the thread I never intended for it to turn into a slanging match between Ranger fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 LOL... C, do you really believe that? Ok, how's this for comedy? The Hartford Wolfpack roster. I want everyone who posts here to laugh when they see this "supposed great rebuilt farm team" C speaks of: HARTFORD TEAM STATISTICS Through Games of 01/02/2003 No. PLAYER POS GP G A PTS +/- PIM PP SH GW GT FG OT UG SHOTS PCT 15 Ward, Dixon RW 25 11 23 34 6 59 3 1 0 1 2 0 0 64 17.2 11 Tripp, John RW 35 19 10 29 8 40 8 0 3 0 6 0 2 124 15.3 27 Lyashenko, Roman C 29 8 14 22 12 20 4 0 0 1 0 0 0 68 11.8 12 Gernander, Ken RW 34 12 7 19 15 14 0 3 2 0 1 0 2 68 17.6 19 Dusablon, Benoit C 31 7 11 18 14 35 1 0 1 0 4 0 0 65 10.8 3 Ekman, Nils LW 20 6 12 18 2 45 2 0 1 0 3 0 0 54 11.1 XBouchard, Joel D 22 6 12 18 5 22 4 0 1 1 1 0 0 75 8.0 Lundmark, Jamie C 19 9 8 17 0 14 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 59 15.3 XDonato, Ted LW 16 6 11 17 3 12 2 1 2 0 1 0 1 32 18.8 18 Ulmer, Layne C 30 5 10 15 7 10 0 1 1 0 1 0 2 59 8.5 XFata, Rico RW 9 8 6 14 4 6 1 1 1 0 0 0 3 41 19.5 2 Kinch, Matt D 21 3 11 14 12 10 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 33 9.1 XLintner, Richard D 16 3 10 13 7 20 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 71 4.2 16 Murray, Garth LW 27 4 8 12 4 57 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 35 11.4 4 Mottau, Mike D 19 1 11 12 16 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 37 2.7 XTibbetts, Billy RW 16 5 5 10 -7 81 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 43 11.6 XKloucek, Tomas D 20 3 4 7 5 102 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 18 16.7 XInman, David C 13 1 6 7 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 14 7.1 8 Aufiero, Pat D 22 1 5 6 -4 18 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 31 3.2 XDwyer, Gordie LW 15 3 2 5 3 117 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 11 27.3 32 Burnett, Garrett LW 27 3 1 4 1 85 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 18 16.7 14 Andrews, Bobby C 20 0 4 4 3 16 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 28 0.0 25 Arsene, Dean D 25 1 2 3 3 53 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 10 10.0 37 State, Jeff D 27 1 2 3 6 68 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 9.1 5 Chebaturkin, Vladimi D 16 1 0 1 1 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 11 9.1 29 Oliwa, Krzysztof RW 12 0 1 1 -5 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 20 0.0 XBilotto, Nic D 2 0 0 0 -2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0.0 XCross, Cory D 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0.0 XYetman, Patrick LW 2 0 0 0 -2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.0 XMeyer, Scott G 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 36 Weller, Craig D 6 0 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 0.0 38 Lampman, Bryce D 6 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.0 23 Scott, Richard LW 9 0 0 0 -2 47 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0.0 40 Holmqvist, Johan G 14 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 35 LaBarbera, Jason G 20 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 BENCH 35 24 TOTALS 35 127 196 323 1046 35 9 15 3 22 0 12 1124 11.3 OPPONENT TOTALS 35 108 186 294 776 42 5 14 3 13 2 3 1091 9.9 No. GPI MIN AVG W L T EN SO GA SAVES SPCT 40 Holmqvist, Johan 14 796:03 2.49 4 5 4 2 1 33 366 0.917 35 LaBarbera, Jason 20 1066:11 2.81 10 7 2 2 1 50 509 0.911 XMeyer, Scott 5 261:06 4.83 1 2 0 0 0 21 108 0.837 TEAM TOTALS 35 2134:51 3.04 15 14 6 4 2 108 983 0.901 OPPONENT TOTALS 35 2134:51 3.57 14 15 6 2 1 127 997 0.887 X - No longer on Team Out of all the players listed, look at some of the former NHL vets the Pack boast. Guys like Dixon Ward, Ted Donato, Ken Gernander and Oliwa comprise this great farm team. Prospects: Fata and Lundmark but they'll never become regulars according to my fanclub . So, I may as well just sell my Lundmark rookies now. Why bother waiting for him to develop? The difference between these fans and other fanbases are patience. They lack patience. They obviously never realized how long it took some of the NHL's current stars to become the players they are today. They think by the Rangers being hard on only the kids that they stink. What kind of chance have they been given? Even Pavel Brendl has been given more of a chance with the Flyers. Did you know that all 3 of Brendl's goals this year have come during ESPN2 telecasts? Apparently, he saves his best games for national TV. The game he had last night was ample proof that he can make the league if he ever becomes consistent. Other prospects are Garth Murray, John Tripp and Holmqvist. Out of all the guys I named thus far, only one was drafted by Sather (Murray). Pat Aufiero and David Inman were Neil Smith picks. I don't know if either of these two are NHL material. Mike Mottau's Hobey Baker Jinx is well known. He'll never be more than an AHLer. Bryce Lampman might turn out to be good. The only reason Sather caved in and signed him was because of the injuries to our D. Otherwise, Lampman was playing junior to become a UFA. Roman Lyashenko is the only player they got left for Malhotra and Heistein. A deal the fanclub insists was a good one. Yet somehow, Malhotra has carved out a 4th line role on one of the best teams in the league while Lyashenko tears up the AHL but never has received more than one recall in which he saw maybe 1 or 2 games. If Lyashenko was any good, he'd be up with the Rangers. What's sad is that if you look hard, there aren't many major prospects who could make a dent at the NHL level. What's even sadder is how lousy the Rangers have been the past 5 years and how crappy their farm system is. Why aren't there more prospects instead of vets? Look at the River Rats for another example. They signed a lot of vets over the summer to make them more competitive but they still have a lot of prospects playing there. I am not going to name the players. I'll leave that to Albany experts MaddDog and Rowdy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 That may be true, but it certainly is funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Uh, Derek... the Rangers farm system is not just Hartford. It also includes all of the Rangers draft choices playing in the CHL (juniors) and Europe, where most of Sather's draft picks are still playing. Garth Murray and Blackburn are two Sather picks that look good to make/excel at the NHL level. Another (Filip Novak) was a cornerstone of the Pavel Bure trade made for a nice upgrade for the Rangers. And the kids Sather either drafted or traded for that make up Hartford's roster is a big improvement over what was there 3 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 What is funny is how the guy who advocates a complete rebuild of the Rangers is upset at the lack of young prospects in Hartford. It takes 2 to 3 years (sometimes 4 if in playing in a US college) for a draft choice to reach the AHL. 18 year olds who are drafted are specifically barred from playing in the A for 2 years. So how could you expect a Sather draft choice to be playing in Hartford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Can't you two take this to the Rangers Cafe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 C, You sound like a PR flack when you say that Sather has dramatically improved the Rangers in the time he has been the GM. You have no idea whether you have solid prospects or not. And even if you do, let's see if Garth Murray and Fedor Tjutin get managed in the same way Kloucek, Blackburn and Lundmark were managed. By the way, is it possible that Lundmark's underwhelming performance in the NHL was PARTLY caused by the team's bungling? I mean, is it ALL on Lundmark? What have the Rangers ever done with young pups in the past 10 years to give the organization the benefit of doubt? I don't see where you're coming from with the Sather apologist movement. Yeah, Sather "divested himself" of Neil Smith's overpaid UFAs (does that mean he waited for Fleury's contract to run out?), but then he brought in his own overpaid UFAs (Ulanov counts!) and traded for a sulking, overpaid chippeyhanger with a gimpy knee and a past-it Eric Lindros who didn't want to come to NY in the first place! Now here comes the predicted argument. "We didn't give up anything substantial to get Bure and Lindros," say the Sather apologists. My answer is what have those two guys done to help the Rangers? The answer, so far, is nothing because the Rangers are a still bad hockey team. The goal is to win hockey games, not win trades with the Flyers and Panthers, something people conveniently forget when judging Sather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Can't you two take this to the Rangers Cafe? Not since Derek went and got himself banned from the Cafe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Not since Derek went and got himself banned from the Cafe. Really? How did that happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 A PR hack, Jerry? Nah, I just call them as I see them. I blame Sather for hiring lightweight coaches. I wasn't thrilled about Low, but who cares as the team had few decent players and no chance of success. Now that the roster (on a good day) contains Lindros, Bure, Holik, Leetch, Poti and Dunham, this crew could have benefitted from an established, reputed coach. Not a rookie cutting his teeth at the NHL level. But there is no doubt that the Rangers organization is better since Sather took over. There is more size, speed and skill on the team as well as some decent prospects in the system. That's the truth. There are many reasons why that hasn't translated into more success in the standings, but that's due to bad luck more than anything. People like to knock Sather for signing Ulanov and Karpa last season, but the truth is that those 2 were better than the #5 and #6 d-men on the Rangers the year before. As bad as those guys are, they were still an improvement and the only options available. Again, fact not PR. Sather was given a long-term contract because Dolan knew this would take a few years to turn around. It's been 2-1/2 years since Sather took over and the improvement is there, and soon it will show in the standings as well, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Really? How did that happen? It's generally not a good idea to go off on a site owner in a multi-post diatribe. Rob and Alex are very patient but everyone has their limit. Derek went too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devs25 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I lurk at the Cafe sometimes, and it seems that a lot of people like to disagree with Derek just to bust his balls. He has gotten upset and said that he is not watching the team anymore and has overracted to some things. (sorry Derek). He is a very passionate fan who is at his breaking point. I would be too if the Dvils were sucking arse for 5 years and everyone was disagreeing, playing the blame game and name calling with each other. I find this thread entertaining though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Looks like Rangers fans and Devils fans agree on one thing. We both want Slats to remain the Rangers GM for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Albany has very few prospects that are supposed to make the NHL. Uchevatov, Foster, Jokela, Ahonen, Clemmensen, and right now I think that's about it. Birbraer and Rupp are longshots and will only be NHL fringe players if they do make it. The rest are either low round Devil picks, free agents signed by NJ that don't have much of a chance, or minor league veterans. Go ahead and crow about how good the Devils prospects are in Albany, Derek, most of the good prospects are in college or in Europe. Pavel Brendl has scored all 3 goals on ESPN2? Well big deal. He stinks and will not become an NHL player.. he plays pond hockey, not NHL hockey, and only the great ones like Bure and Jagr can play pond hockey and get away with it. He is looking like a huge bust at this point, similar to Alexandre Volchkhov, another player who impressed in junior hockey but failed miserably at every level of the pros. C is right when he says that Sather picks shouldn't be in the AHL yet. They shouldn't be. What Sather has done is gotten rid of a lot of the Smith prospects, but in exchange for stars like Lindros and Bure. Slats has never been good at bringing up prospects, he's drafted a lot of dogs in the early 90s and the Edmonton franchise suffered because of it. The only reason why Edmonton stayed afloat is because Slats was a master of finding players on the waiver wire who could contribute positively, and because he's an expert trader.. this year he's done it again with Ronald Petrovicky. A complete rebuild of the Rangers would only be possible with a great prospect frame with which to work.. I think Slats got to New York, realized that Brendl was a bust and that Lundmark was not breaking out in junior as they expected, and made moves accordingly.. picking up NHL fringe players and signing big free agents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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