Guest Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) The asterisk argument is stupid. This is the Steroids Era, and just as Maris' record was always said to be lessened because of the length of the season, they'll say the same thing. Records will not be asterisked. The problem is, PEDs aren't going anywhere, no matter how stringent the testing. There will always be idiots that try to get past it, and even more glaring - there will always be new drugs developed that undermine the system. They're used in every single sport. You can say "suffer" all you want, but this will taint the Championships in many peoples eyes, just as it will taint any player who sets records and is found to have been using. The core offense of those two teams were arguably (if not definitively) Manny and Ortiz, and they're both users, and who knows who else was using. That being said, Pete Rose for the HOF. Level the playing field by letting them all take ped's (at their now peril) then no one will be suprised. HGH can't be detected, and with that being the case, who is to say pujols isn't the next cheater that hasn't been caught yet. Edit.. My bad.. HgH can be detected through a blood test...as per Wikipedia..Traditional urine analysis could not detect doping with HGH, so the ban was unenforceable until the early 2000s, when blood tests that could distinguish between natural and artificial HGH were developed. Blood tests conducted by WADA at the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, Greece primarily targeted HGH. I don't think the players union allows blood testing. Edited July 30, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) America's "past time".... The NFL took over that mantle about 10 years ago. Bonds is trickier, he probably would have made it anyway based on when he supposedly started taking them, roids just turned him from an already great player to the modern-day Babe Ruth Barry Bonds could have retired in 1995 and still would've been a first ballot hall-of-famer. He, more so than anyone aside from Clemens, ruined their legacy completely. If I'm a voter, I'd still vote Barry Bonds in on the first ballot. Record recognition is another story. I don't think the players union allows blood testing. Nope. Donald Fehr deserves as much heat, if not more, than Selig. MLB just tried to play "ignorance is bliss", as ratings were up and the game was enjoying a new renaissance after the mess of 94. Imagine during McGwire's summer had it come out that he and Sosa where on PEDs (and I dont mean andro). The bottom line is both teams heavily cheated like most teams in baseball did. Now can we be done with this and get all 103 names. Having one player leaked every few months is getting very annoying. The problem with the "103" list is that its sealed by court order. When these names leak, its against that court order. It's not like they're feeding us these names every so often on purpose. Fehr is threatening to sue whoever leaked Ortiz and Manny today. I think what Fehr and the union are doing is counter-intuitive to the problem. Hell, the WWE of all organizations name and shames their wrestlers when they are found to have been using, and thats not even a real sport. Edited July 31, 2009 by ghdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Washburn to the Tigers http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=422&sid=195479 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmigliore Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) so the mariners pick up jack wilson as if they are contenders and then deal washburn.. er? i dont get why they picked up jack wilson unless they are dumb enough to pick up his $8.4M option next year.. Edited July 31, 2009 by nmigliore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanity_gallops Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Crap. The central division gets tougher. Well hopefully Carlos Quentin shakes off the rust soon and Alexei Ramirez isn't too badly hurt... otherwise it'll be a tough stretch run for Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmigliore Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) seattle gets 2 lefties in return: luke french and mauricio robles.. nothing is really eye opening about french's numbers; he gives up hits and doesn't strike out many.. robles on the other hand looks like a nice pickup.' and maybe they slot french in their rotation instead of snell.. who knows (fwiw, french nor robles were ranked in the top 10 tigers' prospects coming into this year..) Edited July 31, 2009 by nmigliore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 We can both agree Ortiz is an idiot. It should be interesting how he plays it from here. Some of these guys need to learn from Andy Pettite and Jason Giambi. Their names came up...they admitted it and apologized quickly. Now who even brings up Pettite when talking about steroid users of the past? I don't think Sox fans are hypocrites. At least the smart intellectual ones. From the posts I have read...they are ready for all the same crap they gave the Yankees fans and players...and are going to take it like men. They didn't know Ortiz was a steroid user or didn't want to believe it no matter how obvious it was. They weren't going to turn on Ortiz without proof. That would be unfair. Now here it is...and I think they are ashamed and disgusted. I agree 100% with that first paragraph (although Pettitte was HGH not steroids, but the terms for pretty much all PEDs get jumbled together so much nowadays that it doesn't much matter). Every fan base has its share of intelligent fans and d-bag fans. It's the Boston d-bag fans that I'm laughing at. (Does that make me a d-bag Yankees fan? Probably.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevil26 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I agree 100% with that first paragraph (although Pettitte was HGH not steroids, but the terms for pretty much all PEDs get jumbled together so much nowadays that it doesn't much matter). Every fan base has its share of intelligent fans and d-bag fans. It's the Boston d-bag fans that I'm laughing at. (Does that make me a d-bag Yankees fan? Probably.) I hope you don't lump me in with the Boston d-bag fans. I HATE Manny... I'm calling for Ortiz to be suspended, expelled, and I've pretty much stopped watching baseball. I can't take any more of this crap... millions and millions of dollars for people to use drugs and cheat at baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I hope you don't lump me in with the Boston d-bag fans. I HATE Manny... I'm calling for Ortiz to be suspended, expelled, and I've pretty much stopped watching baseball. I can't take any more of this crap... millions and millions of dollars for people to use drugs and cheat at baseball. Nah you're definitely not one of the bags o' douche. I think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't care if every single player in all of Major League Baseball tests positive, I'd still wish we could kick every single one of them out permanently. All of 'em. Let's finally get a clean slate and a game we can be proud of. But, unfortunately, it'll never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevil26 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Nah you're definitely not one of the bags o' douche. I think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't care if every single player in all of Major League Baseball tests positive, I'd still wish we could kick every single one of them out permanently. All of 'em. Let's finally get a clean slate and a game we can be proud of. But, unfortunately, it'll never happen. My father seems to think that steroids should be legal since everyone is doing them anyway... I oppose that as well. I think it will seep into college ball and high school ball more than it already has and will make a statement that if you want to compete, you have to shoot drugs into your body. This has really ruined baseball and most sports. I am worried every day that we'll have a breakout in hockey... I hope not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 My father seems to think that steroids should be legal since everyone is doing them anyway... I oppose that as well. I think it will seep into college ball and high school ball more than it already has and will make a statement that if you want to compete, you have to shoot drugs into your body. This has really ruined baseball and most sports. I am worried every day that we'll have a breakout in hockey... I hope not... I get this sneaking suspicion that one of the reasons why the NHL wants to faze out the fighting aspect of the game is so that players aren't tempted to juice up. I'm no expert, but I kinda doubt steroids could help a player stickhandle better or be an more accurate passer/shooter. It could help leg strength for speed, but it'd also bulk you up and make you carry more weight so that might cancel out. But if your only chance to crack an NHL lineup is as a goon, that's when you'd be most tempted to try. I think if hockey players were to take any of these PEDs it'd be HGH for the sake of improving recovery time from injuries. And as long as it's used for that, I don't really have a problem with it. The problem would be regulating its use though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I get this sneaking suspicion that one of the reasons why the NHL wants to faze out the fighting aspect of the game is so that players aren't tempted to juice up. I'm no expert, but I kinda doubt steroids could help a player stickhandle better or be an more accurate passer/shooter. It could help leg strength for speed, but it'd also bulk you up and make you carry more weight so that might cancel out. But if your only chance to crack an NHL lineup is as a goon, that's when you'd be most tempted to try. I think if hockey players were to take any of these PEDs it'd be HGH for the sake of improving recovery time from injuries. And as long as it's used for that, I don't really have a problem with it. The problem would be regulating its use though. Not sure if you remember a former NHL player named John Kordic, but he was your classic, no-skill goon, who basically took steroids just to try to stay in the league. He died at the age of 27 after being taken to the hospital, shortly after several police officers were finally able to restrain him after he trashed his hotel room due to a steroid and coke-induced rage. The doctor who treated him said he never saw so much coke in someone's system. Anyway, since this is a MLB thread, regarding what you said about putting asterisks nest to the '04 and '07 Championships, you could do the same thing with a lot of them these days, sadly enough. Andy Pettitte, Mike Stanton, David Justice, Roger Clemens...unfortunately that was the era, and I really wish this damn full list would come out once and for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Not sure if you remember a former NHL player named John Kordic, but he was your classic, no-skill goon, who basically took steroids just to try to stay in the league. He died at the age of 27 after being taken to the hospital, shortly after several police officers were finally able to restrain him after he trashed his hotel room due to a steroid and coke-induced rage. The doctor who treated him said he never saw so much coke in someone's system. Holy crap! Never heard that story before. Anyway, since this is a MLB thread, regarding what you said about putting asterisks nest to the '04 and '07 Championships, you could do the same thing with a lot of them these days, sadly enough. Andy Pettitte, Mike Stanton, David Justice, Roger Clemens...unfortunately that was the era, and I really wish this damn full list would come out once and for all. Eh, I said the '04 and '07 asterisk thing more in a state of glee over the whole situation than anything. The sad thing is that this whole era will forever be known as the Steroids Era. Whether or not these teams win because of steroids won't matter ... there's a cloud that will forever be there. And seriously, why won't this whole list just come out already? There's obviously a source that doesn't have a problem leaking names. Just out with it already. And big ups to Bronson Arroyo for pre-emptively fessing up. I wish more players would follow his lead. The fans pay your salaries, they have the right to know. (Edit: I guess you can now add Arroyo to the growing list of Red Sox that the Mitchell Report somehow overlooked. What a joke.) Edited July 31, 2009 by DaneykoIsGod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmigliore Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Twins get Orlando Cabrera for a rookie-ball/A-ball short-stop prospect (Tyler Ladendorf).. if thats it thats a nice deal for Minnesota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 MLB can't just release the list because they'd be sued to high heaven by those players. It'd be breaking the agreement that the players and MLB had when they took the test. Having it leak is one thing, that's a rogue person and players would have to find that person to sue or prove where the leak is coming from, MLB voluntarily releasing it gives the players a clear organization to sue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmigliore Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Red Sox getting V-Mart? - http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/red-sox-to-acquire-victor-martinez.html edit: also a bunch of rumors flying that adam laroche could move to the mets if/when the vmart deal goes down.... Edited July 31, 2009 by nmigliore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) And seriously, why won't this whole list just come out already? There's obviously a source that doesn't have a problem leaking names. Just out with it already. I said it above, but again, its sealed by court order. The names are leaking against that court order. Thats why they're coming out with a trickle. MLB wants it released, but the PA (Donald Fehr) does not for obvious reasons. In terms of market, if a soon-to-be free agent tested positive, its going to hurt them contractually. Fehr is threatening to sue and all that sh!t over what happened yesterday. MLB can't just release the list because they'd be sued to high heaven by those players. It'd be breaking the agreement that the players and MLB had when they took the test. Having it leak is one thing, that's a rogue person and players would have to find that person to sue or prove where the leak is coming from, MLB voluntarily releasing it gives the players a clear organization to sue. They legally cannot release it. Edited July 31, 2009 by ghdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Holy crap! Never heard that story before. Eh, I said the '04 and '07 asterisk thing more in a state of glee over the whole situation than anything. The sad thing is that this whole era will forever be known as the Steroids Era. Whether or not these teams win because of steroids won't matter ... there's a cloud that will forever be there. And seriously, why won't this whole list just come out already? There's obviously a source that doesn't have a problem leaking names. Just out with it already. And big ups to Bronson Arroyo for pre-emptively fessing up. I wish more players would follow his lead. The fans pay your salaries, they have the right to know. (Edit: I guess you can now add Arroyo to the growing list of Red Sox that the Mitchell Report somehow overlooked. What a joke.) I still trying to figure out how you know Mitchell "overlooked" all of the Red Sox players that had taken ped's...I'm sure they all came running just so they could be the first one to tell him they were dirty..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 MLB can't just release the list because they'd be sued to high heaven by those players. It'd be breaking the agreement that the players and MLB had when they took the test. Having it leak is one thing, that's a rogue person and players would have to find that person to sue or prove where the leak is coming from, MLB voluntarily releasing it gives the players a clear organization to sue. Well ... yeah ... but ... I WANT IT! ::insert childish temper tantrum here:: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I still trying to figure out how you know Mitchell "overlooked" all of the Red Sox players that had taken ped's...I'm sure they all came running just so they could be the first one to tell him they were dirty..lol Is it a really hard conclusion to come to or even contemplate? Its not a stretch to think that Mitchell did all he could to protect the team that he has a very close association with. There were 23 Yankees on the list, more than ANY team, but there were NO Boston players on the list. Now, 2 of 2003's championship core are being accused and another one thinks he may be on there. No one knows for sure except Mitchell and whoever he had w/ him on the committee or whatever it was, but its not a hard assumption to make considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Looks like the V-Mart to Boston deal is done. They didnt have to include Buchholz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmigliore Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Looks like the V-Mart to Boston deal is done. They didnt have to include Buchholz. i heard they could be moving laroche to mets after that deal was finalized.. we'll see what happens im hoping not though .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Is it a really hard conclusion to come to or even contemplate? Its not a stretch to think that Mitchell did all he could to protect the team that he has a very close association with. There were 23 Yankees on the list, more than ANY team, but there were NO Boston players on the list. Now, 2 of 2003's championship core are being accused and another one thinks he may be on there. No one knows for sure except Mitchell and whoever he had w/ him on the committee or whatever it was, but its not a hard assumption to make considering. okay..maybe I'm missing something here and correct me if I'm wrong,but MLB had the list before Mitchell started his investigation the only names he got after that were provided by Radomski and McNamee who were compelled to answer his questions. Mitchell could not use the names on the list because of the agreement between MLB and the union.Since Radomski and McNamee were employed by the Yankmees they gave up the aformentioned cheaters so they could stay out of jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Is it a really hard conclusion to come to or even contemplate? Its not a stretch to think that Mitchell did all he could to protect the team that he has a very close association with. There were 23 Yankees on the list, more than ANY team, but there were NO Boston players on the list. Now, 2 of 2003's championship core are being accused and another one thinks he may be on there. No one knows for sure except Mitchell and whoever he had w/ him on the committee or whatever it was, but its not a hard assumption to make considering. Not just any two of the core either. These guys were THE core. Manny and Ortiz testing positive in '03 is like if Mariano and Jeter tested positive in '95. It's as major as major gets. And Mitchell doesn't just have a close association with the Sox, he's a part-owner and the Team Director. Talk about vested interest. If it was the Steinbrenner Report instead of the Mitchell Report and no Yankees were on the list while Manny and Ortiz and 21 other Red Sox were, the outcries would be flowing in the opposite direction. And rightfully so. Edited July 31, 2009 by DaneykoIsGod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Not just any two of the core either. These guys were THE core. Manny and Ortiz testing positive in '03 is like if Mariano and Jeter tested positive in '95. It's as major as major gets. And Mitchell doesn't just have a close association with the Sox, he's a part-owner and the Team Director. Talk about vested interest. If it was the Steinbrenner Report instead of the Mitchell Report and no Yankees were on the list while Manny and Ortiz and 21 other Red Sox were, the outcries would be flowing in the opposite direction. And rightfully so. Steinbummer is a convicted FELON therefore he could not have been a senator to be able to give a report.. which really sucks for you guys..just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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