Pepperkorn Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 olp -- I also think some are thinking of tossing in a Pando or Gionta to sweeten the deal. it's something that has to have more thought put into it to be a truly viable option. And I don't see that having three offense D is a luxery... a good D man is A good dman. If he can score too alls the better. I don't see we're sacrificing defensive ability for offensive ability with any of these three really. Tevy has some size too. It's so funny I went off on this in the last posts I made then deleted it realizing no one had said it yet... I guess I knew it was just a matter of time I do see both sides but this just makes me grumpy albeit unfairly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devspage Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 To make excuses (bad chemistry is my favorite) for him just because he's Joe Nieuwendyk doesn't seem fair. Well it seems very evident when I watch. I see it more of a reason than an excuse, but it would be nice to see more goals there. Everyone just isn't gonna score with everyone. That's why lines develop and why some star players never play with other star players on the same team. Well that and not putting all their eggs in one basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I think there is a huge miscalculation by some posters on this board of the value of Scott Niedermayer to the Devils team, especially during playoff time. He is not replaceable and we would not have won even a single cup without him. Well you can count me as NOT one of those people I don't think it's a coincidence that cement head goons (e.g., Worrell, Domi) have targeted Niedermayer before and/or tried to take him off the ice with an injury. He's quite valuable to the blue line, whether he's scoring points or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I got news for all you Danton haters. He's a pretty decent hockey player. He's a little nuts, but he's no stiff and he's been effective. Or maybe some "all-too-few smart hockey brains" haven't noticed? Heh, I still don't really like Punkass all that much but I was laughing my a$$ off at Risky's description (I mean, I thought *I* didn't like the kid, until I read this!!!!! LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 No one's saying Niedermayer's worthless to the team. That'd be foolishness. The guy still leads the team in ice time every night. But, I seem to remember last year, Constantine used Niedermayer for 27 or 28 minutes.. now his ice time has been cut back to 22 or 23.. why? Tverdovsky. I do not think we'd get a #1 forward (whatever that is) back for Niedermayer. That's not what we need. The Devils don't need another #89, Bondra, Kapanen, Satan type of scorer. If you look at those players, traditionally they haven't fared very well in the playoffs of late anyway. What do the Devils need? Scoring and size. A physical scorer would help not only everyone on the line, but would enable the Devils to not have to make a finesse line every night. Hey, I'd love to deal Gionta for that player. But no one's going to bite on that. Gionta's going to be good, but he's not going to have much trade value because he won't be a first line player. I know this Devils team, as is, can score in the regular season. I have no doubts that the worst of the scoring woes are behind us. Nieuwendyk and Gionta will start scoring. So will Brylin and Elias. These players can't go much longer without one or two of them stringing good games together and scoring goals. But I have serious doubts about these players scoring in the playoffs.. and that's all that matters. If Nieuwendyk is gone in July, and Niedermayer's holding out (which there is no question in my mind that he will be), what will we have gained by keeping him around when we needed scoring? The East is weak this year. The only teams that look really good are Pittsburgh, Boston, and Philadelphia.. all three have goaltending problems. The Devils could make it to the Stanley Cup Finals once again this year.. but if they lose Nieuwendyk, it will take the Devils 2 or 3 years to go back there. Lou gambled in getting Nieuwendyk, and I think he's going to gamble again.. yes, msweet, maybe no one can do what Niedermayer can, his talent is irreplaceable, but it's not a necessary element to any Cup winning team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 you know how difficult it would be to aquire a physical scorer, there just aren't many out there that are going to be availible, once a team gets one, they hang on to them. We had 2 and lost both, they're going to have to be replaced somehow. Brian Savage? not great but he might come cheaply and is the only guy who comes to my mind right now, it probably won't even take a Niedermayer to get him. Guys like Brind'Amour, Shanahan, and Tkachuk are untouchable, and they're among the few true physical scorers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Savage is Mr. October. The Devils could have acquired him last year but obviously passed... the guy was dealt for Sergei Berezin so it wasn't like he had a lot of trade value. I don't think Savage is a physical player. I don't think he's a very good player either.. not enough of a scoring threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Triumph, I know you're not the least bit interested, but I'd be more than willing to dance with Claude Lemieux again, even though he's 35 or 36. He would provide a shot in the arm for this team, and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 This team is hardly the same team that played with Claude in 2000. That team was a mixture of young and old, with basically only Niedermayer and Brodeur in the middle..this team is older and wiser. Lemieux was approaching being done in 2000. He was awful down the stretch, and did not have a great playoff. He was solid, but not exceptional. It was clear in 2000 that he had lost a step, now I'd guess it's a step and a half. The Devils don't need some Messianic savior to help them out.. If the Devils could clear out Albelin's salary in a Lemieux deal, *maybe*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I'm not opposed to trading Niedermayer for that #1 forward and a serviceable defenseman either, just don't see how that would happen. Either we're underestimating Niedermayer's abilities (as shocking as that would be) or we're overestimating his trade value. Guess it depends on what one thinks of as "serviceable". Think the major problem with replacing Nieds' ice time would be on the PK. I for one, don't like both old slow coots out there at the same time as it is, let alone having a serviceable guy out there. Don't like Rafalski on the PK much or Tivo for that matter. So that leaves White and one of the old coots playing the full 2 minutes or a lousy PK. Just find it funny how most people think he's worthless on this team, but will somehow be worth a sniper and a good defenseman in return. Nice post. You are correct here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risky Posted November 12, 2002 Author Share Posted November 12, 2002 AGH! NO ONE'S SAYING HE'S WORTHLESS! We're saying he's worth MORE TO US in what he can get us on offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Precisely, Risky. Of course the team is going to lose something on defense. But when's the last time a Devils team lost because of poor defense? 98-99, when Odelein and Dean were the third pairing. That won't happen again. It's customary when making a trade post to understate what you have. Most fan boards are rife with Pandolfo/Gionta for Kovalev type deals. But since these posts are primarily concerned with what we'd be getting back, Niedermayer's contribution to the team is lost.. Niedermayer contributes very very well on the defensive side of the puck. But to justify his contract, he's got to play the other side of the puck too. I think he's capable of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellofan17 Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 (1) Bring Berglund up. This kid fights for every minute he has on the ice. I see in him what I saw in Elias and Sykora during years past when they were brought up from Albany. He wants to play, he's good, he's big and he can score. There's no reason he should be sitting in Albany with the offensive woes that we have. Big thumbs up to this. Berglund plays hard, and from what I saw of him last year, he was a shot in the arm to this team when we needed it. He fights for his time, and he's not afraid to mix it up. He's not what you'd call "big", but he plays bigger than his size. I'll admit, I'm a little partial to the kid. But objectively speaking, I still think he deserves to be up here, and I think he'd fit well on our club. He could be a big player for us. Send Guolla down. No explanation needed. Hear ye, hear ye I do, however, loathe Danton and would rather see McK in the lineup every night over that ticking timebomb of post-pubescent angst. Wow. That's quite a mouthful. I get the impression you don't like him. I do like him. I think he's something else this team needs (okay, maybe he's a little Fleury-esque, and he's got that lip-bite thing going when he talks, like Fleury, but I think as long as he can keep his mental issues in check (he should be required to see a psychiatrist at least once a month) but he DOES irritate the other team, he's not afraid to play the body, and he's probably not going to get hurt doing it (unlike a vast majority of the rest of our team who is either too small to legitimately play the body, or just injury prone, or just flat out afraid to play the body). We have defensemen who will play physical, but you need a forward or two to do the same. I don't think Danton should be on the same line as McKenzie and Stevenson... that gives us one contact line, and three finesse lines--I think that fourth line has GOT to be broken up. (4) Bring up Ken Sutton. See my last point for the reason why, but this guy was, I thought, our 5th best guy in the 2001 cup season, behind Raffi, White, Nieds and Stevens. He wants to play, is smart positionally and can crunch like a real D-man. Because he's better than Albelin (ok... maybe not... but he wouldn't have to play either)... and clearly just SOOOO much better than Zyuzin, who we traded for, then put on waivers. We're so smart. (actually if we were smart, we'd switch Pandolfo and Tverdovsky. *L* Make Pandolfo a defenseman and Tverdovsky a forward. They both seem to do the opposite of what they are best though I have seen Tverdovsky play some good defense when he feels like it.) Ok... that's enough out of me for one post. I'll rant again later. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellofan17 Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 As for phyiscal forwards who can score... who in addition might be available for trade... Jochen Hecht has been all over creation in the last 2 years... Buffalo might be willing to move him for the right return. He's not the most physical guy in the world, but he's not afraid to get his hands dirty, and he's not going to be a liability defensively--the guy can score, and he can play penalty kill if need be. I think he's more valuable than the teams who've gotten rid of him know. Maybe there's locker room issues with him, but from what I see on the ice, he's definitely someone to consider. I've heard the rumors about Calgary... and looking for Savard. If we are going to trade with Calgary, can we please NOT get Savard? How about Sonnenberg? The guy had 50 points and 127 pim for a bad AHL team. That should say something. LA could probably be convinced to part with Adam Deadmarsh, especially for a proven defenseman. Phoenix is an interesting look for a trade. I'm not sure I'd want Lemieux back. He is older, and although he's always been what this team has needed in the playoffs, there's no guaranteeing he'd give us what we need during the season. Phoenix has a couple of young guys they won't want to part with, but asking for a guy like Radivojevic or Nagy probably wouldn't scare them off, and if we don't get one of them, at least talks are open--maybe they have one of those obscure guys Lou likes so much. The guys the Blues and the Flyers have are probably not available for trade, though they seem to have the abundance of phsycial guys who can score. They're few and far between, but I think there are a couple out there who might warrant attention at least. We're not without options if we're looking to trade Nieds for a physical scorer (can't we dump Pandolfo too? Or maybe somebody wants Guolla? (I know... I know... I'm daydreaming again) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 neider will not be traded in the division for sure, and if lou can, he'll deal him westward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 AGH! NO ONE'S SAYING HE'S WORTHLESS!We're saying he's worth MORE TO US in what he can get us on offense. Didn't mean to imply that you meant Niedermayer was worthless as well - just a broad statement covering most of the comments made on the board on a daily basis. Seems to me that most fans think he's worthless, but expect to get Sakic for him in return. I'm all for the offense we could get for him, just think the defense would suffer more than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.