Thanks to Triumph I want to Fire Conte +Staff

[CMONPETEYD]

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NJD/draft.html

Thanks for the website Triumph....

2007: Jury still out, looks like Halischuk, Palmieri and Hoeffel MAY contribute one day... Jury is still out

2006: Corrente and Tupulov look like they could contribute, The russians look like Busts (C+ Depending on how Corrente and Tupulov pan out this could be higher

2005: This is awful. Bergfors looks like a Suglobov. May play a few games for us but doesn't look very promising overall. Fraser could still be ok, but not many people are talking about them (D)

2004: Zajac and not much else. Zajac is good, but you are supposed to make good picks in the 1st round (D-)

2003: Parise is great, and Vrana looks like a late bloomer. (B)

2002: When Janssen is your success story of the draft it is really really sad (F)

2001: Your only NHL Player gets released 1 yr too soon in Voros. (F)

2000: Hale was a bust, Martin was probably our last GOOD find past the 2nd round. Rupp contributes a lilttle (B-)

1999: Again our only pick that made anything of himself was Commodore and we traded him shortly into his NHL Career (C-)

1998: This is our last really good draft. Gomez a star, Gionta has turned out very good, especially where we got him. Van Ryn was a good pick, we just couldnt sign him (A-)

1997: Garbage (F)

1996: Colin White in 2nd, Willie Mitchell in 8th (B-)

1995: Sykora good 1st rd Value, nothing much else (We traded McAuley for Gilmour) (B)

1994: Elias Souray and Sullivan all good NHL players (B+)

1993: Pandolfo and Morrison (B)

1992: J Smith, Brylin, Yelle Serviceable NHLers (B -)

1991: Niedermayer + Rolston (A-)

1990: Brodeur, Dunham, Bombardir, Modry, Schwab, Zelepukin (A)

Now to my point...... If you look at the years from 1999 on, We have had very little draft success. Our only great value pick was Paul Martin in the 3rd round. Zach was our best draft pick overall, and Zajac should continue to improve and be good. 2006 and 2007 are still open, but again nothing earth shattering coming up in my opinion.

If you look at 1990 - 1998 we drafted so many NHL players. If they didnt play on our team, we were able to trade players to get key players in our cup runs.

Maybe the problem Lou is having is that none of our players in the system are any good. Our drafts have been REALLY bad outside of the above mentioned players.

Just to give a nice little comparison....Lets look at the Wings. A team who has had 3 Cups over the same timeframe, but always seem to be good.

Detroit Red Wings

2004: Johan Franzen (97th overall)

2002: Valterri Fillpula (95th overall)

1999: Henrik Zetterberg (210 overall)

1998: Pavel Datsyuk (171st overall)

1994 Thomas Holmstrom (257 Overall)

Granted there early rounds havent been great, there ability to pick off talent late is amazing.

I think our well has dried up. Time to move Conte out and time to bring some new blood into our scouting department

CMON LOU... PULL THE TRIGGER

[sundstrom]

the devils have more scouts than any other organization. they also haven't had high draft picks in many years. when they get into the teens, they get parises and zajacs - sure good enough. later rounds are always crap shoots.

you have to look at what the devils passed up on as well. there's actually not that much great young talent that wasn't highly drafted in the NHL. the wings are clearly an anomaly when it comes to finding gems late. you could say the devils are a similar anomaly when it comes to signing undrafted free agents - madden, rafalski, oduya come to mind.

[Devils731]

06, 05, and 04 have silly low grades. You can't really judge any draft in a vacuum like this or so soon. We may as well grade the 07 draft already as easy as it is to grade 06 and 05.

06 is particularly funny. Somehow Zharkov and Vasyunov both look like busts when everything I read from people who follow the Russian leagues says Zharkov has looked better than expected and Vasyunov still looks to have good skills and performed when he was moved off the 4th line. 05 is silly as well, Fraser is still developing and Bergfors made the team out of camp but then had 2 major shoulder injuries which messed up his season.

Edited May 3, 2008 by Devils731

[CMONPETEYD]

the devils have more scouts than any other organization. they also haven't had high draft picks in many years. when they get into the teens, they get parises and zajacs - sure good enough. later rounds are always crap shoots.

you have to look at what the devils passed up on as well. there's actually not that much great young talent that wasn't highly drafted in the NHL. the wings are clearly an anomaly when it comes to finding gems late. you could say the devils are a similar anomaly when it comes to signing undrafted free agents - madden, rafalski, oduya come to mind.

I'll just give you a year example...... 2002 Draft

#51 -- Kadeykin

# 53 -- Tallackson

We passed up on guys like....

Duncan Keith (# 54)

Matt Stajan (# 57)

Jiri Hudler (# 58)

# 64 -- Jason Ryznar

We passed on guys like

Eric Christensen (# 69)

# 84 -- Marek Chvatal

# 85 -- Ahren Nittel

We passed on guys like

Matthew Lombardi (# 90)

Valterri Fillpulla (# 95)

So I just gave you 5 examples...... We missed on 5 of 5. If we had hit on 1 of 5... 20% I would be somewhat ok with the draft. I think we are becoming a one trick pony... We are good early but really bad late.... so bad late that we have to scour the Undrafted Free Agents. While I agree with you Sundstrum that we have done great with guys like Madden, Rafalski, Oduya... the reason we are in the position of having to sign so many Undrafted free agents is because our DRAFTS pretty much suck.

[Devilish34]

06, 05, and 04 have silly low grades. You can't really judge any draft in a vacuum like this or so soon. We may as well grade the 07 draft already as easy as it is to grade 06 and 05.

06 is particularly funny. Somehow Zharkov and Vasyunov both look like busts when everything I read from people who follow the Russian leagues says Zharkov has looked better than expected and Vasyunov still looks to have good skills and performed when he was moved off the 4th line. 05 is silly as well, Fraser is still developing and Bergfors made the team out of camp but then had 2 major shoulder injuries which messed up his season.

IMO it's to early to grade those drafts. I expect Zajac to rebound and get his feet under him next year.

[Devils731]

So I just gave you 5 examples

you find a few guys who drop below the radar for almost every NHL team and somehow that proves the Devils scouting is a bust. Every player doesn't grow perfectly and some players grow abnormally well. If it was so easy to figure these guys out with better scouting wouldn't some teams find late round gems every year instead of there just being a random few for a few random teams each year?

Edited May 3, 2008 by Devils731

[CMONPETEYD]

06, 05, and 04 have silly low grades. You can't really judge any draft in a vacuum like this or so soon. We may as well grade the 07 draft already as easy as it is to grade 06 and 05.

06 is particularly funny. Somehow Zharkov and Vasyunov both look like busts when everything I read from people who follow the Russian leagues says Zharkov has looked better than expected and Vasyunov still looks to have good skills and performed when he was moved off the 4th line. 05 is silly as well, Fraser is still developing and Bergfors made the team out of camp but then had 2 major shoulder injuries which messed up his season.

I'll give you 06.......

Bergfors really doesnt look like much.. just like every year we were expecting something out of Adrian Foster.. I see the same happening with Bergfors. He has been in North America for 4 yrs. Most 1st rd draft picks who have been over here for 4 yrs are already in the NHL.

[sundstrom]

some more research showing who the devils (and many others) may have missed in drafts that were selected by others - and i'm going with guys who would actually be better than what the devils currently have:

2000

Brad Boyes

Justin Williams

Jarret Stoll

Lubomir Visnovsky

John-Michael Liles

Henrik Lundqvist

2001 (this is where lou gambled and lost on foster - this was a largely terrible draft for the devils)

Derek Roy

Fedor Tyutin

Michael Cammalleri

Jason Pominville

Tomas Plekanec

Christian Ehrhoff

Kevin Bieksa

2002

duncan keith

matt stajan

valterri fillpula

2003

matt carle

shea weber

2004

johan franzen

chris campoli

mark streit

notice something? perhaps its the fact that there are maybe 1/2 a dozen really good NHLers past the 1st round of the NHL draft. Everything past round 1 is a crap shoot. the league's best players were very high draft picks with very few exceptions.

[CMONPETEYD]

you find a few guys who drop below the radar for almost every NHL team and somehow that proves the Devils scouting is a bust. Every player doesn't grow perfectly and some players grow abnormally well. If it was so easy to figure these guys out with better scouting wouldn't some teams find late round gems every year instead of there just being a random few for a few random teams each year?

OK... Lets be vert quantifiable....... lets take out all 1st rd picks... we havent been bad there. Let me give you our 2nd - 5th rd picks over the course of the last 5 yr.. and then lets look at our hit miss rate as far as being NHLERS

We will start from 2003 now... since 2004-2006 there are still chances for people to make the team

2003:

2nd Rd: Vrana (Jury still out)

3rd Rd: Khoumtov (BUST)

5th Rd: Tarkir (BUST)

2002:

2nd Rd: Kadeykin (BUST)

2nd Rd: Tallackson (BUST)

3rd Rd: Ryznar (BUST)

3rd Rd: Chvatel (BUST)

3rd Rd: Nittel (BUST)

4th Rd: Janssen (NHLER -- 4th Liner)

5th Rd: Krisjanis Redhlis (BUST)

2001:

2nd Rd: Pohanka (BUST)

2nd Rd: Pilhman (BUST)

2nd Rd: Uchevatov (BUST)

3rd Rd: Leblanc (BUST)

3rd Rd: Nolan (BUST)

4th Rd: Posnov (BUST)

5th Rd: Salomonsson (BUST)

2000:

2nd Rd: Laine (BUST)

2nd Rd: Suglobov (BUST)

2nd Rd: DeMarchi (BUST)

2nd Rd: Martin (NHLER -- Top Pair Defenseman)

3rd Rd: Birbraer (BUST)

3rd Rd: Rupp (NHLER -- 4th Liner)

4th Rd: Cole (BUST)

5th Rd: Jefferson/Danton (BUST -- Jailbird)

5th Rd: Kotsur (BUST)

1999

2nd rd: Commodore (NHLER -- 3rd/4th Defenseman)

2nd rd: Clouthier (BUST)

3rd Rd: Lakos (BUST)

4th rd: Kesa (BUST)

So from 1999-2003 from drafts alone, we landed 1 Top Contributer to our team (Martin), 2 4th Liners in Rupp/Janssen and a 3rd/4th Defenseman in Commodore.

4 NHLERS

24 BUSTS

1 Jury Still Out

I think the sucess rate is really low...... stop trying to defend our drafts over the recent years

some more research showing who the devils (and many others) may have missed in drafts that were selected by others - and i'm going with guys who would actually be better than what the devils currently have:

2000

Brad Boyes

Justin Williams

Jarret Stoll

Lubomir Visnovsky

John-Michael Liles

Henrik Lundqvist

2001 (this is where lou gambled and lost on foster - this was a largely terrible draft for the devils)

Derek Roy

Fedor Tyutin

Michael Cammalleri

Jason Pominville

Tomas Plekanec

Christian Ehrhoff

Kevin Bieksa

2002

duncan keith

matt stajan

valterri fillpula

2003

matt carle

shea weber

2004

johan franzen

chris campoli

mark streit

notice something? perhaps its the fact that there are maybe 1/2 a dozen really good NHLers past the 1st round of the NHL draft. Everything past round 1 is a crap shoot. the league's best players were very high draft picks with very few exceptions.

Then why is Lou stockpiling 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd picks

best use those picks elsewhere... trade them..... try to trade up into the draft like we did to get Parise. Dont draft Garbage

Edited May 3, 2008 by CMONBRENT

[HellOnICE]

The only thing I could even question the Devils drafting on, is their European drafting. We know they can get guys like Rafalski and Oduya from the leagues over there, but the actual drafts aren't that great. When was the last european Devil to make an impact?...Elias?

[sundstrom]

I'll give you 06.......

Bergfors really doesnt look like much.. just like every year we were expecting something out of Adrian Foster.. I see the same happening with Bergfors. He has been in North America for 4 yrs. Most 1st rd draft picks who have been over here for 4 yrs are already in the NHL.

look - i'm not high on bergfors either - but you're not being fair here. less than 1/2 of that draft's 1st rounders really have any NHL time to note. only paul statsny was taken later and has done anything in the NHL. time will tell, but that looks to be a disgustingly top heavy draft.

[CMONPETEYD]

look - i'm not high on bergfors either - but you're not being fair here. less than 1/2 of that draft's 1st rounders really have any NHL time to note. only paul statsny was taken later and has done anything in the NHL. time will tell, but that looks to be a disgustingly top heavy draft.

Players I'd Rather have than Bergfors (We also Drafted Frazee @ 38 which is looking like a wasted pick as well)

# 1 -_ Andrew Cogliano

# 2 -- Matt Niskanen

# 3 -- Marc Eduoard Vlasic

# 4 -- Paul Stastny

# 5 -- Gui Latendresse

# 6 -- Kris Letang

# 7 -- Kris Russell

[sundstrom]

Players I'd Rather have than Bergfors (We also Drafted Frazee @ 38 which is looking like a wasted pick as well)

# 1 -_ Andrew Cogliano

# 2 -- Matt Niskanen

# 3 -- Marc Eduoard Vlasic

# 4 -- Paul Stastny

# 5 -- Gui Latendresse

# 6 -- Kris Letang

# 7 -- Kris Russell

7 total guys - keep in mind that plenty others in the league passed on them as well. if you could find me a team (other than the wings who we've discussed) who routinely drafts well in the late rounds, i'd be open to discussing lou and conte's failures. the truth is there aren't many. and none find the undrafted talent they do. in several cases, that's better becuase while you only have a small chance to draft high (and the consequences to get there are being bad), you have many opportunities to find guys who have already developed their games outside of the NHL's preferred routes.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

These drafts aren't good, but you can't expect the coaching staff to maximize value with every single pick by looking at everyone taken after the devils picked, finding the best player and saying:

LOOK THE DEVILS PASSED ON PLAYER A!!!!!!

three years later when everyone knows who panned out.

[Devil Fan]

but the team uncovers free agents such as Oduya, Rafalski, Madden....or maybe Andy Greene.

[Satans Hockey]

2000: Hale was a bust, Martin was probably our last GOOD find past the 2nd round. Rupp contributes a lilttle (B-)

Well the little bit in which he did contribute did win us a Stanley Cup.

[HellOnICE]

Without drafting of sir Rupp...you could make the case (as weird as it sounds) that the fates do not have us winning in 2003!

[CMONPETEYD]

2000 ENTRY DRAFT WITH MORE THAN 200 NHL GAMES PLAYED (100 Goalie Games) (AFTER RD 1)

Nick Schultz

Andy Hilbert

Andreas Lilja

Matt Pettinger

Jarrett Stoll

Ilya Bryzgalov

Antoine Vermette

Paul Martin

Lubo Visnovsky

Mike Rupp

Kurt Sauer

Dominic Moore

Niclas Wallin

Travis Moen

John Michael Liles

Roman Cechmanek

Darcy Hordichuk

Matthew Lombardi

Paul Gaustad

Antti Miettinen

Lubo Sekaras

(2 out of 21)

2001 ENTRY DRAFT WITH MORE THAN 150 NHL GAMES PLAYED (75 Goalie Games) (AFTER RD 1)

Derek Roy

Fedor Tyutin

Mike Zigomanis

Mike Cammalleri

Jason Pominville

Jay McClement

Tomas Plekanec

Craig Anderson

Stephane Vellieux

Patrick Sharp

Jordin Tootoo

Ray Emery

Christian Ehroff

Christoph Schubert

Jussi Markannen

Kyle Wellwood

Kevin Bieksa

Dennis Seidenberg

Marek Zdlicky

Andrew Alberts

Pasi Nurminen

Jussi Jokinen

Brooks Laich

Christobel Huet

Johnny Oduya (Not Devils Drafted)

Marek Svatos

Ryan Hollweg

Milan Jurcina

Petr Cajaenk

Ivan Majesky

(0 of 30)

2002 ENTRY DRAFT WITH MORE THAN 125 NHL GAMES PLAYED (50 Goalie Games) (AFTER RD 1)

Jarett Stoll

Trevor Daley

Matt Greene

Duncan Keith

Matt Stajan

Jiri Hudler

O-K Tollefson

Greg Campbell

Erik Christensen

Matt Lombardi

Fillpula

Lasse Pirjeta

James Wisniewski

Paul Ranger

Fredrik Norrena

Maxim Talbot

Dennis Wideman

Petr Prucha

Ryan Craig

(0 of 19)

2003 ENTRY DRAFT WITH MORE THAN 100 NHL GAMES PLAYED (50 Goalie Games) (AFTER RD 1)

Loui Eriksson

Patrice Bergeron

Dan Fritsche

Matt Carle

Shea Weber

Patrick OSullivan

David Backes

Maxim Lapierre

Jan Hejda

Lee Stempniak

Lasse Kuukonen

Brad Richardson

Bruno Gervais

Nathan Paetsch

Joe Pavelski

Dustin Byfuglien

Shane O'Brien

Nick Tarnasky

(0 of 18)

The proof is in the numbers...2 NHLers developed outside of the first round since 2000

2 of 88

There are 30 teams in the NHL so really we should be developing 1 NHLER per draft after the 1st rd every yr........

it really isnt happening. Again Martin was a good pick.....Rupp has been ok.. since then we have been piss poor. CMON CMON CMON

[devils102]

Haven't read anything so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but keep in mind that 1) a lot of those draft picks recently have been traded away which explains our lack of recent success. 2) Very few NHL teams have had the success of the Devils in getting players that can contribute outside of the draft ex. Madden, Clarkson, Rafalski, Oduya, prolly more, just off the top of my head.

[aylbert]

The proof is in the numbers...2 NHLers developed outside of the first round since 2000

2 of 88

There are 30 teams in the NHL so really we should be developing 1 NHLER per draft after the 1st rd every yr........

it really isnt happening. Again Martin was a good pick.....Rupp has been ok.. since then we have been piss poor. CMON CMON CMON

I think you need a little math lesson.

In 4 drafts, there were a total of 88 players who developed outside the 1st round.

You think, on par, a team should be able to draft 1 NHL'er a season outside the 2nd round...

30 (teams) x 4 (Drafts) = 120 players. You're missing 32 players for that to work out.

Really, it should be 88/120 = .73. So there is a 73% chance we should have an NHLer past the first round.

.73*4 = 2.92 players. We currently have 2, to follow the average, we are due for another....

Its a crapshoot to be honest. I value our scouting, we make good picks when we can and can see value (we move up if we think we can steal someone). While we may have been sub-par getting role players in the draft, we have been great getting role-players outside the draft.

Oduya, Rafalski, Madden, Greene, Clarkson.... it seems every year we get a new role player.

[Triumph]

a lot of these years weren't good drafting years period.

it's also worth noting that many of these players would've never been devils anyway.

i mean - wow, new jersey didn't take duncan keith. do you realize he is the first chicago-drafted defenseman to make an impact in the league since karl dykhuis?

as an aside, vasuynov and zharkov need to come over to north america ASAP. young players are not developed properly in russia - teams know many of them will bolt and they don't give them any ice time. it'd be especially nice if both of them came over at the same time - that way there's at least one other russian on the team with them.

Edited May 3, 2008 by Triumph

[CMONPETEYD]

Again everyone who mentions our undrafted FA's... fine.... That was not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that the success these guys had in the early to late 90's has not been duplicated in the 2000's.

We have not had the pieces to make the trades like we did in the past.

We have had a TON of picks that have not worked out.

Our Farm system is continuously among the weakest in the NHL.

Something needs to happen.. Something needs to be changed.

When was the last time Lowell/Albany made the playoffs?

Outside of Parise, when was the last time we brought someone through Lowell/Albany and up to the team that was able to contribute?

It's something that we don't see anymore.

It's amazing how many of you don't see or understand the vast underachievements we have had. We have had a TON of middle picks as stated in the earlier threads..... just 1 has done something for us in Martin. Rupp will be known for his legacy of 1 night.. I get that, aside from that heis no more than a 4th liner.

If we just shift the talk to 2nd rounders now.... taking 3rd/4th/5th out of the mix....and startong from 02

18 2nd rd draft picks since 1995

Only:

Colin White

Paul Martin

Mike Commodore

made NHL Careers.....

16% of 2nd rounders are sucresful -- No FWDS

1992 - 1994

Sergei Brylin

Jay Pandolfo

Brendan Morrison

Patrik Elias

4 of 4 2nd rounders are sucessful all 4 forwards.

I dont know guys..... it's almost like..... we better have a 1st rounder... and we should probably trade up because most of our other picks are going to suck....

[sundstrom]

on the one hand, i have no problem coupling multiple late round picks to move up. but the problem is that many teams aren't willing to take a 3rd, 4th, and a 5th for their 1st or 2nd. furthermore, if you give away quantity to move up, you have no room for error if you miss. that being said, the devils find non drafted talent well enough that it's probably worth the risk should they find a trading partner.

[Triumph]

Again everyone who mentions our undrafted FA's... fine.... That was not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that the success these guys had in the early to late 90's has not been duplicated in the 2000's.

draft position and trading picks away. new jersey almost always acquires someone at the deadline.

We have not had the pieces to make the trades like we did in the past.

Our Farm system is continuously among the weakest in the NHL.

Something needs to happen.. Something needs to be changed.

When was the last time Lowell/Albany made the playoffs?

the terrible drafts are over. the talent pool was especially shallow in years like 1999, 2001, and 2002. furthermore new jersey has tended to take very high-risk gambles in late rounds, favoring players with talent in obscure leagues over players in junior hockey. they also do not sign many unrestricted free agents to play in the minor league system. regardless, lowell should be closer to the playoffs next season with the influx of solid players likely to end up there.

Outside of Parise, when was the last time we brought someone through Lowell/Albany and up to the team that was able to contribute?

David Clarkson. Either by necessity or sheer skill, the rest of New Jersey's recent prospects have jumped right on to the big club.

It's amazing how many of you don't see or understand the vast underachievements we have had. We have had a TON of middle picks as stated in the earlier threads..... just 1 has done something for us in Martin. Rupp will be known for his legacy of 1 night.. I get that, aside from that heis no more than a 4th liner.

how many teams are consistently drafting NHL players in the later rounds? detroit seems to have a knack for it. almost no one else does.

If we just shift the talk to 2nd rounders now.... taking 3rd/4th/5th out of the mix....and startong from 02

18 2nd rd draft picks since 1995

Only:

Colin White

Paul Martin

Mike Commodore

made NHL Careers.....

16% of 2nd rounders are sucresful -- No FWDS

1992 - 1994

Sergei Brylin

Jay Pandolfo

Brendan Morrison

Patrik Elias

4 of 4 2nd rounders are sucessful all 4 forwards.

I dont know guys..... it's almost like..... we better have a 1st rounder... and we should probably trade up because most of our other picks are going to suck....

you've identified a trend. it's totally meaningless. prospect picking requires a ton of luck. new jersey will have a halfway decent pick this year (around 22, no?) we'll see what they do with it.

[theamazingtiny]

It's true guys...hindsight is 20/20.