CHICOEATS11 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 SP, you seem to have a very hard time on what anecdotal means. We can prove his PIM is low because that statistic exists and is definitive, we can not prove or disprove that he has taken an abundance of bad penalties because that is subjective.It does make sense though to suggest that a player taking on average less than 1 penalty every 2 games is probably not taking many bad penalties because the player is not taking many penalties to begin with. And it's not about how many penalties, but about the quality of the penalties. White's are usually a result of him hauling down a guy because he's not in control of his stick or because he's just been skated around for the 20th time in a game. The penalties that he does take are all suggestive of the fact that he isn't skilled enough to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Poster Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Triumph -You seem to discredit attacks on White's passing and offensive skills because he's just not that "type" of defenseman, and yet you then claim that people are just noticing White's mistakes in the defensive end more because he can't produce offensively. What are we allowed to criticize him for, then? If he can't do anything offensively, then he HAS to be great in our own zone, and he has to be held all the more accountable for his mistakes there. If a player is good with a few skill sets, if he starts to falter with one, he at least holds value by contributing through the others. When a 1-dimensional player like White is out of position and getting beat, he can't make up for it by doing anything else, so he fully deserves any criticism he gets for it. You're completely right in saying that White's type of player has become devalued in the league since the lockout. However, White is far less skilled than other players in his mold, even in the things that he's "supposed" to be good at. While he throws some good hits, he also misses a lot. He's out of position a huge amount of the time, largely because he just isn't fast enough to keep up with anyone. And he doesn't seem to be better than anyone really at clearing the front of the net. And probably worst of all, he's just not a smart player. While White makes a lot of mistakes due to lack of skill (usually lack of speed), the majority are just due to a lack of a functional hockey brain. He looks lost in terms of coverage fairly often, people get away from him all the time. He makes stupid passes, and makes horrendous mistakes that just make it look like his head isn't in the game. He brings absolutely nothing to the table except the fact that he's been with the team a while, and is a liability almost every shift he's on the ice. I personally have thought White has been useless even before the eye injury, but I thought then that he was at least young and would learn how to position himself better. But he's just gotten worse, and is more or less useless now. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 anecdotal:1. also an Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 (edited) anecdotal:1. also an Edited November 25, 2008 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHICOEATS11 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I think the problem is we can argue over what we "see" back and forth and nobody can prove it one way or the other. Your observations are no more valid than my own so by introducing harder pieces of evidence, usually statistics, it elevates a discussion above person X's word against person Y's word. So some people think White is playing awful, some think he is playing fine, and the numbers seem to back up the latter not the former. Part of the problem is that numbers don't tell much of a story here at all. The "numbers" in this case I would guess is +/-. White has spent the majority of his career towards the bottom of the team's +/-. The fact that he's playing with Oduya now, who had a GREAT +/- last year, and that this is the first time in years that White's has been decent, suggests that it's probably not White but Oduya who's responsible for that. And beyond +/-, White's numbers don't really say anything, other then that he can't score, and that he's turned from an undisciplined player racking up penalty minutes into a somewhat disciplined player who racks up less penalty minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Part of the problem is that numbers don't tell much of a story here at all. The "numbers" in this case I would guess is +/-. White has spent the majority of his career towards the bottom of the team's +/-. The fact that he's playing with Oduya now, who had a GREAT +/- last year, and that this is the first time in years that White's has been decent, suggests that it's probably not White but Oduya who's responsible for that.And beyond +/-, White's numbers don't really say anything, other then that he can't score, and that he's turned from an undisciplined player racking up penalty minutes into a somewhat disciplined player who racks up less penalty minutes. I thought we were talking about how White was playing this season? If we're looking at this season he's put up some decent offensive numbers as well. I wouldn't expect that to continue but those numbers are there as well. His SOG are up as well which is a good thing. The numbers add to a story, if we refuse to look at both play and numbers then I can argue Parise is the worst player of the year because he's been missing a lot of empty nets this years and I believe him to stink and nobody could point out all his goals and points because numbers are useless and only my visual opinion matters, anyone elses visual opinions will be wrong as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Devil Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 (edited) Part of the problem is that numbers don't tell much of a story here at all. The "numbers" in this case I would guess is +/-. White has spent the majority of his career towards the bottom of the team's +/-. The fact that he's playing with Oduya now, who had a GREAT +/- last year, and that this is the first time in years that White's has been decent, suggests that it's probably not White but Oduya who's responsible for that.And beyond +/-, White's numbers don't really say anything, other then that he can't score, and that he's turned from an undisciplined player racking up penalty minutes into a somewhat disciplined player who racks up less penalty minutes. I am willing to bet that if the numbers fit your argument (say, if White was a -6), those numbers would find their way into a post here. If no other numbers say anything about White, other than he can't score, and is more disciplined this year, then lets look at season projections, based on numbers, for 82 games. Oduya--0 Goals, 45.9 Assists Martin--10.3 Goals, 27.3 Assists Greene--15.3 Goals, 68.3 Assists White--4.1 Goals, 20.5 Ass Mottau--0 Goals, 21.67 Assists Salmela--0 Goals, 19 Assists Salvador--4.3 Goals, 4.3 Assists Leach--0 goals, 27.3 Assists Brookbank--0 Goals, 0 Assists Looked up the +/- ranking for the Devs over White's career. FAR from the bottom regarding majority of years. Here is the breakdown: 99-00 T-12th out of 24 in only 21 gms.. 00-01 5th out of 28 01-02 9th out of 28 02-03 3rd out of 28 03-04 7th out of 28 05-06 17th out of 29 06-07 25th out of 28 07-08 20th out of 26 08-09 3rd out of 27 (current) Only at the bottom 2 years, and lower part of 2nd half 1 other time. Top 9 four times, with this year a potential 5th. Mike Martin KC Devil Edited November 25, 2008 by KC Devil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Poster Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Looked up the +/- ranking for the Devs over White's career. FAR from the bottom regarding majority of years. Here is the breakdown:99-00 T-12th out of 24 in only 21 gms.. 00-01 5th out of 28 01-02 9th out of 28 02-03 3rd out of 28 03-04 7th out of 28 05-06 17th out of 29 06-07 25th out of 28 07-08 20th out of 26 08-09 3rd out of 27 (current) Only at the bottom 2 years, and lower part of 2nd half 1 other time. Top 9 four times, with this year a potential 5th. It's not a coincedence that the +/- ranking went up post-lockout? I'm willing to bet alot more teams then the Devils did too. No Stevens, Neidermayer, Daneyko will do that to a team's +/- also. Again, +/- is an overrated stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Devil Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 It's not a coincedence that the +/- ranking went up post-lockout? I'm willing to bet alot more teams then the Devils did too.No Stevens, Neidermayer, Daneyko will do that to a team's +/- also. Again, +/- is an overrated stat. My post was in direct response to the prior post that stated "White has spent the majority of his career towards the bottom of the team's +/-." The ranking is for White, among the Devils players. Not the Devils team, in case I did not make it very clear. Mike Martin KC Devil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHICOEATS11 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I am willing to bet that if the numbers fit your argument (say, if White was a -6), those numbers would find their way into a post here.If no other numbers say anything about White, other than he can't score, and is more disciplined this year, then lets look at season projections, based on numbers, for 82 games. Oduya--0 Goals, 45.9 Assists Martin--10.3 Goals, 27.3 Assists Greene--15.3 Goals, 68.3 Assists White--4.1 Goals, 20.5 Ass Mottau--0 Goals, 21.67 Assists Salmela--0 Goals, 19 Assists Salvador--4.3 Goals, 4.3 Assists Leach--0 goals, 27.3 Assists Brookbank--0 Goals, 0 Assists Looked up the +/- ranking for the Devs over White's career. FAR from the bottom regarding majority of years. Here is the breakdown: 99-00 T-12th out of 24 in only 21 gms.. 00-01 5th out of 28 01-02 9th out of 28 02-03 3rd out of 28 03-04 7th out of 28 05-06 17th out of 29 06-07 25th out of 28 07-08 20th out of 26 08-09 3rd out of 27 (current) Only at the bottom 2 years, and lower part of 2nd half 1 other time. Top 9 four times, with this year a potential 5th. Mike Martin KC Devil Good catch on White's better +/- early on, but unknown poster makes the accurate observation that White's +/- drops off immediately when our defensive leadership and talent disappears after 03-04. Playing with Scott Neidermayer, I could have maintained an even +/-. The second White is no longer held up by one of the NHL's best players, his numbers go to crap. Until he again plays with someone who has shown himself to be able to pick up a good +/-, at which point it finally rises again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Poster Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 My post was in direct response to the prior post that stated "White has spent the majority of his career towards the bottom of the team's +/-."The ranking is for White, among the Devils players. Not the Devils team, in case I did not make it very clear. "Looked up the +/- ranking for the Devs over White's career" Ok, i saw that part and thought other. I thought it looked kinda odd lol. The same logic holds true, even when dealing with a stat i don't put alot of stock in. Notice the post-lockout difference? No Stevens/Neids/Dano to take the pressure off of him. You are actually proving the point that he hasn't been as effective post-lockout and he's gotten worse 05-06 17th out of 29 06-07 25th out of 28 07-08 20th out of 26 That's not good for a D-man that is supposed to log 20+ mins a game and be a top pairing. 08-09 3rd out of 27 (current) And remember we're only 20 games into the season. Let's see where White rates at game 82. During the Devils 3 game losing streak in Oct, he was a - in each game. Want to know an example of why i think +/- is useless? White could be on the ice for a total of 2-3 seconds and get a +. He could come right off the bench on a change, skate 6 feet and the Devils score and he still gets a + for his "contribution". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 (edited) Want to know an example of why i think +/- is useless? White could be on the ice for a total of 2-3 seconds and get a +. He could come right off the bench on a change, skate 6 feet and the Devils score and he still gets a + for his "contribution". The same holds true the other way though...he could be on the ice for a second when the other team scores. Of course his plus-minus rating went down post-lockout, not because of who was playing with him but because he went from playing other teams' second and third lines to playing their first lines more frequently. And the rules changed as well, hampering physical defensemen. John Madden has never had a great plus-minus either, I don't see you ragging on him for that. And for the record I don't think he's played particularly well post-eye injury and I'm a big fan but I do think historically he's always gotten a bad rap because he isn't Stevens and doesn't have Dano's PR charm. btw how great has Niedermayer's +/- been since leaving Jersey? Edited November 25, 2008 by Hasan4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Alan Ryder's Player Contribution at hockeyanalytics.com: Colin White in 05-06: 46, ahead of John Madden and Jamie Langenbrunner, 3rd amongst defensemen on New Jersey. 06-07: 33, tied for 5th among New Jersey D men. 07-08: 39, 4th amongst New Jersey D men. Considering Ryder's ratings seem to overrate assists, underrate minor penalties, I think that's fair. White was thrust with the most minutes against the top guys, and fared average to worse-than-average, which should have been expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRASHER Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 btw how great has Niedermayer's +/- been since leaving Jersey? +8 +6 -2 -2 I blame that on the fraud goalie behind him though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britdevil Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I only have one complaint, Sal and White have been crap on the penalty kill. Otherwise I find them pretty much equal. White should be better, but unfortunately that eye is holding him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 niedermayer's +/- stinks since leaving jersey because he just doesn't concentrate on defense as much. he takes a ton more penalties too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRASHER Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 niedermayer's +/- stinks since leaving jersey because he just doesn't concentrate on defense as much.he takes a ton more penalties too. And his goalie is a MILLION times worse (since you're listing excuses use the most obvious one ) How does taking penalties affect your +/-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 And his goalie is a MILLION times worse (since you're listing excuses use the most obvious one )How does taking penalties affect your +/-? it doesn't, he's just out of position more and is forced to take them more often. being out of position more also leads to goals against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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